Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

schultz

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Update from anonymous member:

Hair is shiny and soft- also strange for me, has always been very dry and coarse. Strangers are complimenting me about the hair.

Obviously, people are experiencing positive things from restricting vitamin A. I suppose the whole point of the thread is "why?". The least likely answer is that vitamin A is a poison IMO. I think the answer is a little more complex than just "hypothyroidism", but I do think that is at the core of the problem. It's hard not to think this given what we know about vitamin A and thyroid plus the fact that most of the people who are experiencing benefits from vitamin A restriction seem to have had classic hypothyroid symptoms. Case-in-point: coarse, dry hair. Add-in intestinal relief from a restricted diet and sprinkle in some sense of control one feels when radically shifting their lifestyle and you have yourself a positive outcome. It's hard to say how long that will last, but I would think people would want to figure out how they can once again tolerate a bit of vitamin A and carotene in their life instead of restricting their diet forever. Think of the mangoes you're missing out on!!!

A note on thyroid supplementation: I questioned a few people about this way earlier in the thread. They usually said, "I took thyroid, it didn't work". Taking thyroid is not as straightforward as popping a pill every day. For one thing, a lot of the supplements out there are more than likely junk. Getting Cytomel or Cynoplus would be the first step.

Anyway, I still think this is mostly a thyroid issue combined with systemic inflammation.
 

Tarmander

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Add-in intestinal relief from a restricted diet and sprinkle in some sense of control one feels when radically shifting their lifestyle and you have yourself a positive outcome.
I would say you probably have a point if the people you were talking to were not practically professional restrictive dieters.

Obviously, people are experiencing positive things from restricting vitamin A. I suppose the whole point of the thread is "why?".
This is correct and well boiled down...like good potatoes
 

postman

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Obviously, people are experiencing positive things from restricting vitamin A. I suppose the whole point of the thread is "why?". The least likely answer is that vitamin A is a poison IMO. I think the answer is a little more complex than just "hypothyroidism", but I do think that is at the core of the problem. It's hard not to think this given what we know about vitamin A and thyroid plus the fact that most of the people who are experiencing benefits from vitamin A restriction seem to have had classic hypothyroid symptoms. Case-in-point: coarse, dry hair. Add-in intestinal relief from a restricted diet and sprinkle in some sense of control one feels when radically shifting their lifestyle and you have yourself a positive outcome. It's hard to say how long that will last, but I would think people would want to figure out how they can once again tolerate a bit of vitamin A and carotene in their life instead of restricting their diet forever. Think of the mangoes you're missing out on!!!

A note on thyroid supplementation: I questioned a few people about this way earlier in the thread. They usually said, "I took thyroid, it didn't work". Taking thyroid is not as straightforward as popping a pill every day. For one thing, a lot of the supplements out there are more than likely junk. Getting Cytomel or Cynoplus would be the first step.

Anyway, I still think this is mostly a thyroid issue combined with systemic inflammation.
I'm open to the idea of it being a mitochondrial problem but this knee-jerk reflex of thinking every problem can be solved by taking cytomel is not helpful. That kind of advice is worse than to tell someone to keep eating a restrictive diet that works. Most people here have been at this peat thing for years. By the way if anything I have a much easier time increasing my body temperuture while being lower on VA, than before. Taking a retinol supplement seems to be way more thryoid-toxic than eating pufa bomb processed foods.
 

Dolomite

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I agree with that eating a low vitamin A diet and avoiding beta carotene has made me less or not at all hypothyroid. And I have questioned if it has freed up my liver for better metabolism or if it is truly a poison. Hypervitaminosis A is a problem. For people who already are not hypothyroid vitamin A seems not to be a problem. Will they eventually become hypothyroid if they consume excess vitamin A? Will the excess vitamin A cause that hypothyroidism? Is that what happened to me? I don’t know.

It is my understanding from reading Dr. Peat that thyroid supplements are best taken after a person has done as much as possible with diet. So it makes sense to me that people would be willing to try a low vitamin A diet.
 

Blossom

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Obviously, people are experiencing positive things from restricting vitamin A. I suppose the whole point of the thread is "why?". The least likely answer is that vitamin A is a poison IMO. I think the answer is a little more complex than just "hypothyroidism", but I do think that is at the core of the problem. It's hard not to think this given what we know about vitamin A and thyroid plus the fact that most of the people who are experiencing benefits from vitamin A restriction seem to have had classic hypothyroid symptoms. Case-in-point: coarse, dry hair. Add-in intestinal relief from a restricted diet and sprinkle in some sense of control one feels when radically shifting their lifestyle and you have yourself a positive outcome. It's hard to say how long that will last, but I would think people would want to figure out how they can once again tolerate a bit of vitamin A and carotene in their life instead of restricting their diet forever. Think of the mangoes you're missing out on!!!

A note on thyroid supplementation: I questioned a few people about this way earlier in the thread. They usually said, "I took thyroid, it didn't work". Taking thyroid is not as straightforward as popping a pill every day. For one thing, a lot of the supplements out there are more than likely junk. Getting Cytomel or Cynoplus would be the first step.

Anyway, I still think this is mostly a thyroid issue combined with systemic inflammation.
I don’t know the answer. I’m hopeful that eventually we will figure it out and I do believe it’s probably multifaceted. I was pretty strict for 9-10 months and since then I average about 15-25% of the RDA from animal sources without any issues. I’m completely off thyroid and have lost 50 pounds altogether but about 30 of that was when I was unintentionally eating low A while living in an RV for a year. I have no desire to add in more A because I’m doing so well and I suspect the RDA might be a bit high for some people.
 

schultz

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I would say you probably have a point if the people you were talking to were not practically professional restrictive dieters.

I was including people who don't frequent the forum regularly. The people @Blossom has been quoting seem like regular, non-forum people. I guess I was assuming.

This is correct and well boiled down...like good potatoes

Yah it has been discussed quite a bit and there is lots of good info/theorizing/debating in this thread.

I'm open to the idea of it being a mitochondrial problem but this knee-jerk reflex of thinking every problem can be solved by taking cytomel is not helpful. That kind of advice is worse than to tell someone to keep eating a restrictive diet that works. Most people here have been at this peat thing for years. By the way if anything I have a much easier time increasing my body temperuture while being lower on VA, than before. Taking a retinol supplement seems to be way more thryoid-toxic than eating pufa bomb processed foods.

However, a lot of people who are restricting vitamin A seem to be curing symptoms that are considered classical signs of hypothyroidism. Combine this with our understanding of how vitamin A and thyroid interact with each other in the body and it starts to look like people were just consuming more vitamin A than their body demanded and suppressing their thyroid. Restricting vitamin A helps the thyroid recover and the symptoms disappear. If the problem actually is a thyroid one (plus a few other things), and not a "vitamin A is a poison and the cause of all modern ailments" one, then I would think people would want to try to understand that instead of embarking on a restrictive diet for life. A person may enjoy the restriction temporarily (it could help them feel in control, or could simplify their lifestyle in a way that gives them a feel of control) but it might not last. This is just my opinion though... I don't think I could avoid all carotene and vitamin A sources for the rest of my life. I like fruit too much, for one thing!


I don’t know the answer. I’m hopeful that eventually we will figure it out and I do believe it’s probably multifaceted. I was pretty strict for 9-10 months and since then I average about 15-25% of the RDA from animal sources without any issues. I’m completely off thyroid and have lost 50 pounds altogether but about 30 of that was when I was unintentionally eating low A while living in an RV for a year. I have no desire to add in more A because I’m doing so well and I suspect the RDA might be a bit high for some people.

If you're doing well, and like your diet, then that seems reasonable to me. I just figured people might get sick of the diet eventually and feel trapped. If they eat vitamin A they think they will get sick but they also don't enjoy such a restrictive diet, so what do they do? Knowing about the thyroid/vitamin A connection, digestion, endotoxin, vitamin E, inflammation, might help them figure out how to introduce vitamin A back into their diet while still feeling the same as when they restricted it, or even better possibly (thinking about the vitamin A/steroid connection). Not everyone on the forum reads all of Ray's work or listens to all the podcasts, so they might not put all the pieces of the puzzle together.
 

Blossom

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If you're doing well, and like your diet, then that seems reasonable to me.
Yes I do, thanks! I eat butter, eggs and goat dairy whenever I feel like it. Some days I have none of those and other days all three without noticing any problems.
 

postman

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I was including people who don't frequent the forum regularly. The people @Blossom has been quoting seem like regular, non-forum people. I guess I was assuming.



Yah it has been discussed quite a bit and there is lots of good info/theorizing/debating in this thread.



However, a lot of people who are restricting vitamin A seem to be curing symptoms that are considered classical signs of hypothyroidism. Combine this with our understanding of how vitamin A and thyroid interact with each other in the body and it starts to look like people were just consuming more vitamin A than their body demanded and suppressing their thyroid. Restricting vitamin A helps the thyroid recover and the symptoms disappear. If the problem actually is a thyroid one (plus a few other things), and not a "vitamin A is a poison and the cause of all modern ailments" one, then I would think people would want to try to understand that instead of embarking on a restrictive diet for life. A person may enjoy the restriction temporarily (it could help them feel in control, or could simplify their lifestyle in a way that gives them a feel of control) but it might not last. This is just my opinion though... I don't think I could avoid all carotene and vitamin A sources for the rest of my life. I like fruit too much, for one thing!




If you're doing well, and like your diet, then that seems reasonable to me. I just figured people might get sick of the diet eventually and feel trapped. If they eat vitamin A they think they will get sick but they also don't enjoy such a restrictive diet, so what do they do? Knowing about the thyroid/vitamin A connection, digestion, endotoxin, vitamin E, inflammation, might help them figure out how to introduce vitamin A back into their diet while still feeling the same as when they restricted it, or even better possibly (thinking about the vitamin A/steroid connection). Not everyone on the forum reads all of Ray's work or listens to all the podcasts, so they might not put all the pieces of the puzzle together.
If you wanna go that route, if anything it looks like VA causes hypothyroidism, by causing t3 resistance or something like that. I needed less T3 when I was super strict about my VA intake.

Eating in a peaty manner is also a restrictive diet so I guess that's not what you would recommend? I know that's exactly what you would recommend, but you would only consider something to be orthorexia if it isn't in lieu with Ray's teachings.

It has nothing to do with feeling in control, this is you trying to invalidate peoples experiences with your psychobabble, exactly the type of ***t you hear if you go to an MD and say you have hypothyroid symptoms. Your opinion is ignorant and you seem ignorant to the suffering of people living with chronic illness.

I don't like eating this way at all, it's hard for me to stick to. Do you have any practical "peaty" recommendations that you think could fix this, instead of just trying to psychoanalyze people or coming with useless advice like take vitamin D?
 

Amazoniac

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- Structure and properties of carotenoids in relation to function (!)

"The carotenoids are not just "another group of natural pigments." They are substances with very special and remarkable properties that no other groups of substances possess and that form the basis of their many, varied functions and actions in all kinds of living organisms. Often traditionally thought of as plant pigments, the carotenoids have a much wider distribution and occur extensively also in animals and microorganisms. The striking natural colors that are due to carotenoids--e.g., in yellow, orange, and red flowers and fruit--are familiar to all of us, but other, less obvious roles make carotenoids essential components in oxygenic photosynthetic organisms. Without carotenoids, photosynthesis and all life in an oxygen atmosphere would be impossible."​

--
If you happen to be a slow mobilizer, which was the last excuse resorted by Collden to justify approaching the problem the barbarian way through abstention, thy tissues can be deprived of it throughout the entire process, it might be a systemic sacrifice to relieve the liver, if it's having difficulty in mobilizing, how to be sure that tissues are properly supplied? We're advancing towards putting a nail in the coffee of rationalizations to continue on extreme deprivation for too long, it's just an imprudent practice. It's no wonder that there's hesitation in standing by it.

- Liver vitamin A slow release syndrome in cattle with a multiple nutrient imbalance

"The suggested imbalance started with the low dietary carotene, which shifted emphasis to the liver as the primary source for daily vitamin A needs. The liver would have been hampered in supplying the needed vitamin A because of the low Zn level that was aggravated by the Ca level of more than twice maintenance and further stressed by the low P level."

"[..]because of its close relationship to Ca, P could have helped to counterbalance the high Ca level if P itself had not been borderline low (NRC, 1976)."

"Development of the theory of a liver vitamin A slow release syndrome logically starts with the basic information of the wide individual variation among animals in the rate of release of vitamin A from the liver. Calculations from data published by Gartner and Ryley (1962) show not only a several-fold variation in the rate of release of liver vitamin A among individual cows, but also that the rate of release in some animals is below that required (range of release rates was from 5,000 to 39,000 units of vitamin A/nursing Hereford cow/day)."

"The next consideration in the development of the slow vitamin A release theory is the large variation in published results on the length of time for half the liver vitamin A to be released. Findings range from 28 to 184 days (Frey and Jensen, 1947; Church et aL, 1956; Hayes et al., 1966, 1967; Sewell et al., 1966; Mitchell, 1967; Swanson et al., 1968; Kohlmeier and Burroughs, 1970; Meacham et al., 1970). In an experiment in which rats were given exceptionally high levels of vitamin A, Davies and Moore (1935) found that it took only a little less than 14 days for the liver to be depleted of half of its vitamin A."

Davies and Moore (1935) reported that they found that as much as 5% of the dry weight in the liver was vitamin A in adult rats after administration for two-five weeks. This amount could supply the vitamin A requirement of this animal for about 200 years. However, it was found that the content in the liver rapidly decreased on discontinuing the supply of vitamin A and that about 98% of the vitamin disappeared within twelve weeks.

"The thyroid gland also has an effect on the rate at which vitamin A is released from the liver. Indications are that, under conditions of rising and hot temperatures and suboptimum feed intake, such as occurs at the end of each dry season in the Northern Territory of Australia, the thyroid effect would be a slower release of liver vitamin A (Moore, 1957; G. S. Smith [?] et al., 1964)."

"Malnutrition also slows the rate of release of vitamin A from the liver (Guilbert and Hart, 1934; Roels and Mack, 1972; J. C. Smith et al., 1973). In addition, a high roughage diet causes a slower release of liver vitamin A than does a high energy diet (Hale et al., 1961; Tillman, 1962)."

"Heat stress may cause slow release due to impaired liver function (Aron et al., 1946). Page et al. (1959) proposed that high environmental temperatures may increase the vitamin A requirement for cattle. Certainly, there are many reports indicating that environmental temperatures have a marked effect on vitamin A metabolism (Jones et al., 1943; Moore and Sharman, 1951; Marion, 1961; Perry et al., 1962; Roussel et al., 1963; Beeson et al., 1964; Hansard et al., 1971). Jones et al. (1943) noted that when cattle have marginal vitamin A intakes, they manifest hypersensitivity to sunlight by making frantic efforts to reach the shade after having been forced into the sun."

"The effect of Zn deficiency is dramatic in slowing the release of vitamin A from the liver. J. C. Smith et al. (1973) demonstrated the great @Tenacity of the liver in holding its vitamin A in cases of Zn deficiency."

"Data accumulated over the past several years in the Upper Adelaide River District of the tropical Northern Territory of Australia confirm high levels of vitamin A in livers of malnourished cattle. Data and observations support a theory of slow release of liver vitamin A. The slow release is accentuated by a multiple nutrient imbalance starting with low carotene, followed by high Ca, low P and relatively low Zn levels in the dry season forage. The imbalance culminates with the apparent liver vitamin A slow release syndrome, wherein the rate of release is well below the NRC (1976) recommended level for maintenance."

"These findings indicate that a component of vitamin A should be included whenever cattle are supplemented for any reason in the mid to late dry season while grazing sun-bleached forage containing very little carotene. Specifically, the normal tendency not to use vitamin A on the rationale that there is sufficient vitamin A in the liver should be avoided. Further, in considering the use of injectable vitamin A, the producer should recognize the importance of using a several-fold increase in dosage to compensate for the slow release of liver vitamip A."​
 

Tarmander

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- Structure and properties of carotenoids in relation to function (!)

"The carotenoids are not just "another group of natural pigments." They are substances with very special and remarkable properties that no other groups of substances possess and that form the basis of their many, varied functions and actions in all kinds of living organisms. Often traditionally thought of as plant pigments, the carotenoids have a much wider distribution and occur extensively also in animals and microorganisms. The striking natural colors that are due to carotenoids--e.g., in yellow, orange, and red flowers and fruit--are familiar to all of us, but other, less obvious roles make carotenoids essential components in oxygenic photosynthetic organisms. Without carotenoids, photosynthesis and all life in an oxygen atmosphere would be impossible."​

--
If you happen to be a slow mobilizer, which was the last excuse resorted by Collden to justify approaching the problem the barbarian way through abstention, thy tissues can be deprived of it throughout the entire process, it might be a systemic sacrifice to relieve the liver, if it's having difficulty in mobilizing, how to be sure that tissues are properly supplied? We're advancing towards putting a nail in the coffee of rationalizations to continue on extreme deprivation for too long, it's just an imprudent practice. It's no wonder that there's hesitation in standing by it.

- Liver vitamin A slow release syndrome in cattle with a multiple nutrient imbalance

"The suggested imbalance started with the low dietary carotene, which shifted emphasis to the liver as the primary source for daily vitamin A needs. The liver would have been hampered in supplying the needed vitamin A because of the low Zn level that was aggravated by the Ca level of more than twice maintenance and further stressed by the low P level."

"[..]because of its close relationship to Ca, P could have helped to counterbalance the high Ca level if P itself had not been borderline low (NRC, 1976)."

"Development of the theory of a liver vitamin A slow release syndrome logically starts with the basic information of the wide individual variation among animals in the rate of release of vitamin A from the liver. Calculations from data published by Gartner and Ryley (1962) show not only a several-fold variation in the rate of release of liver vitamin A among individual cows, but also that the rate of release in some animals is below that required (range of release rates was from 5,000 to 39,000 units of vitamin A/nursing Hereford cow/day)."

"The next consideration in the development of the slow vitamin A release theory is the large variation in published results on the length of time for half the liver vitamin A to be released. Findings range from 28 to 184 days (Frey and Jensen, 1947; Church et aL, 1956; Hayes et al., 1966, 1967; Sewell et al., 1966; Mitchell, 1967; Swanson et al., 1968; Kohlmeier and Burroughs, 1970; Meacham et al., 1970). In an experiment in which rats were given exceptionally high levels of vitamin A, Davies and Moore (1935) found that it took only a little less than 14 days for the liver to be depleted of half of its vitamin A."

"The thyroid gland also has an effect on the rate at which vitamin A is released from the liver. Indications are that, under conditions of rising and hot temperatures and suboptimum feed intake, such as occurs at the end of each dry season in the Northern Territory of Australia, the thyroid effect would be a slower release of liver vitamin A (Moore, 1957; G. S. Smith [?] et al., 1964)."

"Malnutrition also slows the rate of release of vitamin A from the liver (Guilbert and Hart, 1934; Roels and Mack, 1972; J. C. Smith et al., 1973). In addition, a high roughage diet causes a slower release of liver vitamin A than does a high energy diet (Hale et al., 1961; Tillman, 1962)."

"Heat stress may cause slow release due to impaired liver function (Aron et al., 1946). Page et al. (1959) proposed that high environmental temperatures may increase the vitamin A requirement for cattle. Certainly, there are many reports indicating that environmental temperatures have a marked effect on vitamin A metabolism (Jones et al., 1943; Moore and Sharman, 1951; Marion, 1961; Perry et al., 1962; Roussel et al., 1963; Beeson et al., 1964; Hansard et al., 1971). Jones et al. (1943) noted that when cattle have marginal vitamin A intakes, they manifest hypersensitivity to sunlight by making frantic efforts to reach the shade after having been forced into the sun."

"The effect of Zn deficiency is dramatic in slowing the release of vitamin A from the liver. J. C. Smith et al. (1973) demonstrated the great @Tenacity of the liver in holding its vitamin A in cases of Zn deficiency."

"Data accumulated over the past several years in the Upper Adelaide River District of the tropical Northern Territory of Australia confirm high levels of vitamin A in livers of malnourished cattle. Data and observations support a theory of slow release of liver vitamin A. The slow release is accentuated by a multiple nutrient imbalance starting with low carotene, followed by high Ca, low P and relatively low Zn levels in the dry season forage. The imbalance culminates with the apparent liver vitamin A slow release syndrome, wherein the rate of release is well below the NRC (1976) recommended level for maintenance."

"These findings indicate that a component of vitamin A should be included whenever cattle are supplemented for any reason in the mid to late dry season while grazing sun-bleached forage containing very little carotene. Specifically, the normal tendency not to use vitamin A on the rationale that there is sufficient vitamin A in the liver should be avoided. Further, in considering the use of injectable vitamin A, the producer should recognize the importance of using a several-fold increase in dosage to compensate for the slow release of liver vitamip A."​
Where I want to make the distinction is in how low vitamin A is affecting you. If you are not going through "detox" I think being on a low vitamin A diet for awhile will be fine. The accounts of people's bone formation straightening out suggests that possibly a low vitamin A environment is aiding in recalcification of bones and that could be a longer term thing. However if you are having "detox" reactions, I think pushing through and treating those detox reactions as something to be tolerated is not wise.
 

Amazoniac

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Where I want to make the distinction is in how low vitamin A is affecting you. If you are not going through "detox" I think being on a low vitamin A diet for awhile will be fine. The accounts of people's bone formation straightening out suggests that possibly a low vitamin A environment is aiding in recalcification of bones and that could be a longer term thing. However if you are having "detox" reactions, I think pushing through and treating those detox reactions as something to be tolerated is not wise.
I agree. In the short-term it's alright, but as time passes, it's worth starting to pay attention if there wasn't a gradual adaptation to subsistence without being evident as a negative effect. This is possible because it can be owashadow'd by all the relief and benefit that this intervention provides.
 
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gaze

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I agree. In the short-term it's alright, but as time passes, it's worth starting to pay attention if there wasn't a gradual adaptation to subsistence without being evident as a negative effect. This is possible because it can be owashadow'd by all the relief and benefit that this intervention provides.

what I don’t understand is how any human, i.e. ray, needs to supplement 100k+ IU of A daily because of a “fast metabolic rate”. while metabolism can certainly increase, at a certain point of consistent 98.6 temps, how much farther can it go? cause most people hitting 98.6 in the real world do not need nor eat 100k IU, ecspecially of retinol and they don’t have acne, etc. It seems like Rays thyroid supplementation is the only way that one could possibly ever need that much simply to not get acne, which goes against how humans have lived for thousands of years. Either that or Rays acne/ingrown hair problem has nothing to do with vitamin A, and he was missing some other factor, but I have nowhere near the knowledge of A as he does, so I’m not going to go down that route of saying someone else is right or wrong.
 
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schultz

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Yes I do, thanks! I eat butter, eggs and goat dairy whenever I feel like it. Some days I have none of those and other days all three without noticing any problems.

Oh okay, so you're no longer super restrictive? It sounds like you're doing quite well.

If you wanna go that route, if anything it looks like VA causes hypothyroidism, by causing t3 resistance or something like that. I needed less T3 when I was super strict about my VA intake.

Eating in a peaty manner is also a restrictive diet so I guess that's not what you would recommend? I know that's exactly what you would recommend, but you would only consider something to be orthorexia if it isn't in lieu with Ray's teachings.

It has nothing to do with feeling in control, this is you trying to invalidate peoples experiences with your psychobabble, exactly the type of ***t you hear if you go to an MD and say you have hypothyroid symptoms. Your opinion is ignorant and you seem ignorant to the suffering of people living with chronic illness.

I don't like eating this way at all, it's hard for me to stick to. Do you have any practical "peaty" recommendations that you think could fix this, instead of just trying to psychoanalyze people or coming with useless advice like take vitamin D?

When I started learning about Ray's ideas I actually felt quite liberated. I don't consider it very restrictive at all. I mainly avoid PUFA though and will allow myself "treats" from time to time. You can eat a lot of the same foods as "regular" people as long as they are cooked in something like coconut oil. It's nice to be able to go to Starbucks and grab a latte and think "This is healthier than all the vegetables at the grocery store". Gotta love it.

I am not trying to invalidate peoples experiences, at least not on purpose. I am probably ignorant to the suffering of people. It's hard to understand how hard it is for people who struggle with chronic illness. I've never been chronically ill, or really had anything seriously wrong with me, so I really have no idea. I catch a cold and feel like it's the end of the world, so I can't imagine what it's like to feel sick all the time.

My only advice is to read all of Ray's stuff and listen to all the podcasts. Ray can say it better than I can.

what I don’t understand is how any human, i.e. ray, needs to supplement 100k+ IU of A daily because of a “fast metabolic rate”. while metabolism can certainly increase, at a certain point of consistent 98.6 temps, how much farther can it go? cause most people hitting 98.6 in the real world do not need nor eat 100k IU, ecspecially of retinol and they don’t have acne, etc. It seems like Rays thyroid supplementation is the only way that one could possibly ever need that much simply to not get acne, which goes against how humans have lived for thousands of years. Either that or Rays acne/ingrown hair problem has nothing to do with vitamin A, and he was missing some other factor, but I have nowhere near the knowledge of A as he does, so I’m not going to go down that route of saying someone else is right or wrong. Also sorry if this has been covered already, the threads gotten so long and I only skimmed it so there’s a high probability I’m regurgitating old topics

I don't think Ray supplements 100,000 units of vitamin A. If he does take this much, I doubt it's daily.
 

Cirion

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I am not trying to invalidate peoples experiences, at least not on purpose. I am probably ignorant to the suffering of people. It's hard to understand how hard it is for people who struggle with chronic illness. I've never been chronically ill, or really had anything seriously wrong with me, so I really have no idea. I catch a cold and feel like it's the end of the world, so I can't imagine what it's like to feel sick all the time.

Well, you are one of the lucky few, for sure. I've been metabolically unwell for, I'd say about 90-95% of my life, including as a child/youth.

You have the good sense to actually care and take preventative measures though, so that's a good thing. A lot of people take their health for granted and eat whatever they want and do lots of destructive things to their health and wonder why things crash and burn later.

Pray you never get into a bad metabolic situation. It's basically hell on earth, which has been my existence almost from day 1. I broke free from the hell briefly a couple years ago, only to descend back into it after being in an emotionally abusive relationship (which I've since escaped, luckily, but the damage has been dealt). Two years now picking up the pieces and still not back on track. It's been a difficult journey. But, I've escaped before, so I continue to hold out hope I can escape again.
 

InChristAlone

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Haven't read through the rest of the thread, so some of these may have been addressed, but some suggestions off the top of my head:
* You could try replacing butter with pastured lard. It has a much more mild taste than tallow. I use the leaf lard, almost no pork flavor, I get it from a local farm but you can buy online too (just more expensive). I've been doing this recently, adding it to mashed potatoes and such, and it's going well. I intend to try it on sourdough bread too. I know some people on the low VA thing aren't big on pork but I've had no issues -- for me it's noticeably better than butter.
* I've been making a cornbread with white masa harina. Very calorie dense and delicious. Masa, lard, sugar, bob's skim milk powder, egg white, salt, baking powder, water. If you add more water and cook it in a pot maybe it'd turn into some kind of porridge?
* Unfortunately WRT meat/protein I don't know what to say. I've found that getting enough animal protein every day is important, but whole cuts of meat digest better than pre-ground. Maybe a pressure cooker and cook it to death? Or maybe grind it yourself in a food processor? (I intend to try this too because it's cheaper than steaks.)
* I've been eating Enjoy Life chocolate chips after meals if I feel like I need more calories. Maybe you could melt them down a bit? Dip bananas in it? :greedy: They're not the best because cocoa fiber doesn't agree with me very well, and I seem to remember you saying you can't do much fiber either. I might replace them with a homemade chocolate that's mostly cocoa butter+sugar with a tiny bit of cocoa powder + vanilla for taste.
Thanks for the suggestions! I am actually chewing again pain free! I started putting magnesium oil on my face before bed and the muscles pain is gone!
 

gaze

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I don't think Ray supplements 100,000 units of vitamin A. If he does take this much, I doubt it's daily.

“For several years, when I had an extremely high metabolic rate, I needed 100,000 units per day during sunny weather to prevent acne and ingrown whiskers, but when I moved to a cloudy climate, suddenly that much was too much, and suppressed my thyroid. The average person is likely to be hypothyroid, and to need only 5,000 units per day.” - ray peat

I can’t understand how a fast metabolism and sunlight can push A needs to 100k. makes 0 sense how inefficient the body would be with it
 

redsun

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“For several years, when I had an extremely high metabolic rate, I needed 100,000 units per day during sunny weather to prevent acne and ingrown whiskers, but when I moved to a cloudy climate, suddenly that much was too much, and suppressed my thyroid. The average person is likely to be hypothyroid, and to need only 5,000 units per day.” - ray peat

I can’t understand how a fast metabolism and sunlight can push A needs to 100k. makes 0 sense how inefficient the body would be with it

Thing is there are other things that can keep acne at bay as well. Just because Vitamin A somehow suppressed acne growth at 100k IU daily for him doesnt mean there arent other thing that could have been done. Zinc and P5P are effective for acne. So is Vitamin C, and B5... This quote from him is quite odd.
 

lampofred

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“For several years, when I had an extremely high metabolic rate, I needed 100,000 units per day during sunny weather to prevent acne and ingrown whiskers, but when I moved to a cloudy climate, suddenly that much was too much, and suppressed my thyroid. The average person is likely to be hypothyroid, and to need only 5,000 units per day.” - ray peat

I can’t understand how a fast metabolism and sunlight can push A needs to 100k. makes 0 sense how inefficient the body would be with it

He was probably low in zinc, magnesium, B6, Vitamin D which all slow metabolism. So he needed enormous amounts of Vit A to slow metabolism enough to prevent acne from appearing.
 

gaze

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@lampofred @redsun
Yea my acne goes away completely with adequate protein and zinc. A small portion of steak a day usually fixes it if I breakout after a stressful day or a bad couple cheat meals. I don’t get how ray could be so far wrong on that. just for reference, my vit A is only from cheese and orange juice, both of which I eat only a couple servings a day. Maybe some greens too sometimes but that’s it.
 
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redsun

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@lampofred @redsun
Yea my acne goes away completely with adequate protein and zinc. A small portion of steak a day usually fixes it if I breakout after a stressful day or a bad couple cheat meals. I don’t get how ray could be so far wrong on that. just for reference, my vit A is only from cheese and orange juice, both of which I eat only a little each day. Maybe some greens too sometimes but that’s it.

I don't think twice about Vit. A intake anymore. Eggs, dairy, probably are the sole sources of real retinol, but even when I didnt eat eggs or dairy, I didnt suddenly get acne, nor did I get temp changes or what have you.

My god lol, I did the same thing a few times. If I see my acne is starting to pop up behind what I am okay with(which is very little if at all), I make sure to eat lean steak that day and perhaps strictly more of it for a few days. Poof gone. Probably the B6, zinc, selenium and protein which is all relatively high in steak which make it so good for acne. No vitamin A of course. I would argue beef seems to be one of the most potent foods for liver detoxification. There is a reason after all why the preferred protein for zero vitamin A dieters is usually beef, not chicken or pork(seeing as pork has retinoic acid in the fat apparently), and its not just because of detoxing, but its just all around good.
 

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