Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Nomane Euger]

Yeah I saw that, and I edited my comment to say he's not someone I'd ever emulate. His girlfriend basically went crazy. He's had many failed relationships I hear, he's not someone to ever look up to.

does durianrider mentionned himself that he is on steroids?i did not imply that he should be emulated;i have not heard any of these anecdotes you mentionned as i only watched 2videos of him and all i heard from him prior was "durian rider=sugar",compare to most youtube infuencers i have seen,some of his perspectives on certains topic are something a lot of 2022 men watching youtube and getting influence would benefit from,regardless of whever he take hormones as long as he mention it,i dont personally envy anything from him

 

[Jneet]

He is on steroids. Sorry now I see it's been mentioned. DurianRider is someone I'd be least likely to emulate.

Yeah! Few years back I Iistened to him & followed his advice. Terrible diet.
Felt starving & cold all the time.
He is untrustworthy, a proven narcissistic sociopath.
He uses his diet & excersise as a cover for his eating disorder which is what his diet & cycling lifestyle is all about.
Him along with his ex Freelee (who he brainwashed, basically) constantly body check through their videos as well as giving damaging dietary advice.
It's always laughable to me when I hear about them giving advice to people with eating disorders because their whole life is one, hence their obsession with being skinny which is what it is all about.

 

[InChristAlone]

Yeah! Few years back I Iistened to him & followed his advice. Terrible diet.
Felt starving & cold all the time.
He is untrustworthy, a proven narcissistic sociopath.
He uses his diet & excersise as a cover for his eating disorder which is what his diet & cycling lifestyle is all about.
Him along with his ex Freelee (who he brainwashed, basically) constantly body check through their videos as well as giving damaging dietary advice.
It's always laughable to me when I hear about them giving advice to people with eating disorders because their whole life is one, hence their obsession with being skinny which is what it is all about.

100% agree

 

[Jib]

Very interesting discussion! I too feel like I'm getting benefits from transdermal magnesium. Currently using a formulation of 1/2 cup magnesium chloride powder, 1/2 cup of clear spirits (e.g. vodka), 1/2 cup water, 1 tablespoon potassium chloride. You do have to shake it prior to spraying to redistribute the potassium as some will settle to the bottom.

You can also use a lotion as mentioned here:

Magnesium Body Butter

Magnesium is a vital nutrient for the body and this magnesium body butter includes natural ingredients like coconut oil and shea butter for healthy skin.

wellnessmama.com

Anyway, as far as absorption goes:

"At the end of 12-week treatment a further hair analysis was conducted. After transdermal applications for 12 weeks all patients except one had a significant increase in cellular magnesium ranging from −7.1% to 262%"

Myth or Reality—Transdermal Magnesium?

In the following review, we evaluated the current literature and evidence-based data on transdermal magnesium application and show that the propagation of transdermal magnesium is scientifically unsupported. The importance of magnesium and the positive ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Garrett's claimed that his clients' hair tests are showing increased magnesium as a result of using it transdermally. I have chronic knee pain that has improved by using transdermal magnesium regularly. It also works great as a deodorant, but in my experiencing, the underarms are very prone to the stinging/burning sensation that MgCl can cause. Using it on my chest/abdomen/back/legs/feet, I almost never have any issues with that. But under the arms can sting like crazy. But it does work phenomenally as a deodorant. Even with heavy sweating I have no odor these days as a result of using this stuff daily.

 

[Jib]

@orangebear

Interesting. I have heard Ray mention vitamin A can be problematic for hypothyroid people. I'd imagine most people are hypothyroid, myself included, which could also explain the massive success some people are having with low vitamin A.

@Jneet

I agree. It's best to avoid logical fallacies (ad hominem being one), and keep things logical. I have much more respect for people when they don't insult people but simply address claims. For example, he simply could have made his case and given a theory as to why she felt bad. Any time anyone resorts to logical fallacies it's not a good sign. "Keeping it professional" is extremely important for professionals. I would go so far as to say that entertaining the argument of the opposition, and evidence contrary to your beliefs, is essential for being a true professional. No one should ever be hesitant to receive criticism. However, it goes both ways -- the criticism should be logical and both parties should be expected to make logical, rational arguments in favor of their side, that can be argued for or against by independent parties thereafter.

The waters get muddied by logical fallacies. Ironically, the people least prone to logical fallacies are the moderates/experimenters open to anything, typically not professionals whose livelihood depends on strict adherence to their theories and methods. I've seen it in my own trade. People get attached to their methods and when they get used to making a living off of them, it's very hard to convince them that another way might be better, as it would require a massive and uncomfortable restructuring of not just their belief system but their entire practice and income.

At the same time, I'm also not trying to police what anyone says. I still think it would have been more interesting to get her test results *after* quitting the low vitamin A diet and seeing how that affected her test results. Basically all of these things end up as missed opportunities. I even only found out about this whole topic through this forum on the Anit-Peat subforum...now how many forums are going to entertain, much less have a dedicated subforum, to something like that? Garrett does come down pretty hard on Peat supporters, and used to be one himself, and is convinced Peat is completely wrong -- but I think it's a mistake to simply denounce something instead of taking the time to do an in-depth critique of it.

People very familiar with Peat's work are not going to believe these things so readily, especially if it's showing that the people supporting it are not familiar with Peat's arguments. There's also the fact that Peat is healthy and in his 80's and by all accounts has a very high regular intake of vitamin A, especially by Grant's standards. If dairy and OJ were so harmful I'd imagine Peat would have gotten quite sick and died a long time ago with the amounts of these foods that he consumes on a regular basis.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

Don't really want to argue, but the 4-5k calories hundred years ago sounds absolutely unbelievable, considering that people were also shorter back then. Very hard time believing that an average male in the world of the 20th century ate 4-5k calories.

Also doesn't Ray have a similar caloric intake to him? In Ray's own words that I have heard in some recent video he said that he ate 2-3L of 1% milk (hardcore) 0.5-1L of orange juice and one egg. Weekly oysters in addition to that. Even if you highball his food intake it tops off at at 1800 calories. Now Ray is much older than him though.

Does Anyone even know how tall Ray is?

I'd also agree about the caloric intake, nowadays only professional athletes or tall bodybuilders eat that level of calories.
A regular average-height male with a healthy appetite would probably eat 3-3.5k calories on a high day and less than 3k most of the days.

 

[SamYo123]

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=durianrider+steroiods

 

[InChristAlone]

Testosterone isn't all it's cracked up to be either..
Ray Peat:
"In 1979, a woman whose husband was suffering from advanced Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis (ALS) asked me if I had any ideas for slowing his decline. I described my suspicion that ALS involved defective metabolism or regulation of testosterone. In some tissues, testosterone is selectively concentrated to prevent atrophy, and ALS is a disease of middle-age, when hormone regulation often becomes a special problem. In the late 1970s, there was discussion of a higher incidence of ALS in males, and especially in athletes. I told her about progesterone's general protective effects, its antagonism to testosterone, and its prevention of atrophy in various tissues. She decided to ask her doctor to try progesterone for her husband. Later, I learned that her husband had gone into a very rapid decline immediately after the injection, and died within a week; the physician had given him testosterone, since, he said, "testosterone and progesterone are both male hormones." Besides making me more aware of the problems patients have in communicating with physicians, this tended to reinforce my feeling that a hormone imbalance is involved in ALS. Although I haven't written much about testosterone's toxicity, Marian Diamond's work showed that prenatal testosterone is similar to prenatal estrogen, in causing decreased thickness of the cortex of the brain; both of those hormones oppose progesterone's brain-protecting and brain-promoting actions."
MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS AND OTHER HORMONE-RELATED BRAIN SYNDROMES.

 

[Lollipop2]

Don't really want to argue, but the 4-5k calories hundred years ago sounds absolutely unbelievable, considering that people were also shorter back then. Very hard time believing that an average male in the world of the 20th century ate 4-5k calories.

Have you ever looked at menus and recipes from that time period? I saw somewhere about a typical day’s meals - wow! A lot of food. I was surprised actually. I didn’t save it but if you do a search you could find it. Also look at those old videos restored by people in color and slowed down. People were healthy looking, thin, walked everywhere. Fascinating really…

 

[InChristAlone]

Well, that might be the final push I needed to ditch the apple juice that I have been wanting to stop for a while now.

Are you noticing any bad effects from it? You could just switch to frozen concentrate grape juice. Men also have more ADH in their stomach making it easier to get rid of methanol before it reaches the nerves.

 

[Tarmander]

Testosterone isn't all it's cracked up to be either..
Ray Peat:
"In 1979, a woman whose husband was suffering from advanced Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis (ALS) asked me if I had any ideas for slowing his decline. I described my suspicion that ALS involved defective metabolism or regulation of testosterone. In some tissues, testosterone is selectively concentrated to prevent atrophy, and ALS is a disease of middle-age, when hormone regulation often becomes a special problem. In the late 1970s, there was discussion of a higher incidence of ALS in males, and especially in athletes. I told her about progesterone's general protective effects, its antagonism to testosterone, and its prevention of atrophy in various tissues. She decided to ask her doctor to try progesterone for her husband. Later, I learned that her husband had gone into a very rapid decline immediately after the injection, and died within a week; the physician had given him testosterone, since, he said, "testosterone and progesterone are both male hormones." Besides making me more aware of the problems patients have in communicating with physicians, this tended to reinforce my feeling that a hormone imbalance is involved in ALS. Although I haven't written much about testosterone's toxicity, Marian Diamond's work showed that prenatal testosterone is similar to prenatal estrogen, in causing decreased thickness of the cortex of the brain; both of those hormones oppose progesterone's brain-protecting and brain-promoting actions."
MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS AND OTHER HORMONE-RELATED BRAIN SYNDROMES.

I have learned to ignore these Ray Peat one offs...they are compelling but misleading

 

[InChristAlone]

I have learned to ignore these Ray Peat one offs...they are compelling but misleading

You may be right.

 

[Nomane Euger]

@Tarmander hi boi, why do you find that spécific quote missleading

 

[RWilly]

I've been looking into the methanol causing the diseases of civilization thing by Dr Woodrow Monte. I asked Peat a few yrs ago whether there was a concern about methanol in bottled fruit juices and he said frozen is probably good and that you would get less from bottled than from eating it fresh as the pectin can convert to methanol in the intestine, but no natural diet seems to promote the diseases of civilization, it is when the diet is messed with by canning, bottling, smoking and using artificial sweeteners like aspartame (has methanol in it). So I have officially quit my juice addiction, I was getting some rather concerning symptoms lately like numbness and tingling in the extremities which apparently can be a sign of multiple sclerosis that Dr Monte believes is due to methanol converting to formaldehyde in the body. Not saying I have MS but I'm taking no chances with bottled and canned fruits anymore. Canned tomato sauce also has lots of methanol, you have to boil it off for hours.

I've pretty much moved on from the vitamin A toxicity thing. I won't eat liver ever again but I will likely never eliminate dairy.

I decided to clean up my environment of polyester fabrics. Which is a source of BPA and hundreds of other estrogenic chemicals. I spent days researching 100% cotton blankets, underwear and clothes, who knew it'd be so hard to find natural fabric! I feel like we are being bathed in estrogenic chemicals. Not to mention the formaldehyde in textiles and furniture as well. That was originally why I started looking into it thanks to Monte's research on formaldehyde. Think of what formaldehyde does to cadavers, that's what it eventually does to the inside of our body as well. Cancer, atherosclerosis, multiple sclerosis, Alzheimer's. Wherever there are ADH enzymes they can convert methanol to formaldehyde and it's so reactive it immediately damages our cells wherever it is and disappears leaving no trace of it behind. Extremely extremely small molecule.

Just FYI: Hepatic Detoxification of Bisphenol A is Retinoid-Dependent

 

[InChristAlone]

Just FYI: Hepatic Detoxification of Bisphenol A is Retinoid-Dependent

Interesting,
"Oral supplementation with retinyl acetate restored phase I and phase II enzyme activities, but accelerated BPA-induced oxidative damage through enhancement of non-mitochondrial ROS production. Thus, the activities of the enzymes involved in the hepatic elimination of BPA require hepatic retinoid stores. The extent of hepatic damage that arises from acute BPA intoxication is directly affected by retinoid administration during the period of BPA exposure and hepatic retinoid stores that have accumulated over the lifetime of the organism."

 

[Tarmander]

@Tarmander hi boi, why do you find that spécific quote missleading

He might be telling the truth, but he has a ton of these kinds of stories, and they never pan out to the extremes he says. From special vitamin E to CO2 exposure.

 

[Jib]

Interesting,
"Oral supplementation with retinyl acetate restored phase I and phase II enzyme activities, but accelerated BPA-induced oxidative damage through enhancement of non-mitochondrial ROS production. Thus, the activities of the enzymes involved in the hepatic elimination of BPA require hepatic retinoid stores. The extent of hepatic damage that arises from acute BPA intoxication is directly affected by retinoid administration during the period of BPA exposure and hepatic retinoid stores that have accumulated over the lifetime of the organism."

Also found this part interesting:

----------------------------------------

However, the detoxification of BPA when hepatic retinoid stores are not available, as in Lrat−/− mice, leads either to impaired BPA biotransformation or to a lack of induction of its metabolism. Hence, we conclude that hepatic retinoid stores are required to allow for optimal BPA detoxification. Upon BPA administration to Lrat−/− mice, the diminished activities of components of the hepatic detoxification system also resulted in less harm to the liver compared with wild-type mice.

We believe that the enhancement of BPA biotransformation upon retinyl acetate supplementation results in more harm to the organ because it triggers oxidative damage of cellular lipids and proteins due to enhanced ROS production of non-mitochondrial origin.

The monooxygenase/oxidase reactions involved in BPA oxidation and stimulated by simultaneous retinyl acetate supplementation are likely a source for ROS formation that contributes to an increase of BPA hepatotoxicity. Thus, the results of our investigations raise a fundamental question regarding specific nutrient–xenobiotic interactions given the increased exposure of living organisms to different kinds of xenobiotics and/or environmentally persistent pollutants. From our data, it is clear that hepatic retinoid stores, ones arising from a dietary acquisition over a lifetime, may not benefit the health of the liver upon xenobiotic exposure.

Retinyl ester stores accumulate through a mechanism that evolved to buffer against dietary vitamin A-insufficiency. This benefits the organism. However, this accumulation also becomes an injurious factor contributing to xenobiotic-induced hepatotoxicity. Our data also establish that overconsumption of dietary vitamin A under xenobiotic imposition poses a threat for increased xenobiotic hepatotoxicity. Collectively, these observations raise a question as to what is the optimal dietary amount of vitamin A to allow for safe xenobiotic elimination upon exposure. This issue merits investigation in future studies.

 

[Atman]

Don't really want to argue, but the 4-5k calories hundred years ago sounds absolutely unbelievable, considering that people were also shorter back then. Very hard time believing that an average male in the world of the 20th century ate 4-5k calories.

Also doesn't Ray have a similar caloric intake to him? In Ray's own words that I have heard in some recent video he said that he ate 2-3L of 1% milk (hardcore) 0.5-1L of orange juice and one egg. Weekly oysters in addition to that. Even if you highball his food intake it tops off at at 1800 calories. Now Ray is much older than him though.

Does Anyone even know how tall Ray is?

Yes, it might sound unbelievable from todays perspective because the general population is so unhealthy, but it is true!
I have for example a German book from 1920 in my library which mentions a diet to solve certain issues (very Peaty btw) and I entered the contents in cronometer and it came back at around 4k calories.

There was also an interview with Peat, where a similar statement was mentioned.
"-In1939, the average wealthy adult male in the US ate over 5000 calories per day (and they didn’t seem to have a concept of “eating too much”) of mostly flour, butter, sugar, potatoes, some beef and pork, lots of milk. (They ate peaty.) If you choose pro-metabolic foods, you can eat way more calories than the current recommendations. Back then, people didn’t do any cardio and were still way leaner, despite eating more calories."
You can look it up via this thead:

Ray Peat Interview - Dr. Ray Peat, Brad Marshall on the History of PUFA and Obesity (Part 1). Show-Title: A Neighbor's Choice.

View: https://rumble.com/v14myc7-dr.-ray-peat-brad-marshall-on-the-history-of-pufa-and-obesity-part-1.html

raypeatforum.com

Regarding Peat himself:
He is over 80 years old and eats about 500g of carbohydrate per day, that is 2.000 calories from carbs alone!
So with fat and protein he is closer to 3.000 calories.
Source:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZCgpw6_sRA

 

[Vanset]

Yes, it might sound unbelievable from todays perspective because the general population is so unhealthy, but it is true!
I have for example a German book from 1920 in my library which mentions a diet to solve certain issues (very Peaty btw) and I entered the contents in cronometer and it came back at around 4k calories.
View attachment 38318
There was also an interview with Peat, where a similar statement was mentioned.
"-In1939, the average wealthy adult male in the US ate over 5000 calories per day (and they didn’t seem to have a concept of “eating too much”) of mostly flour, butter, sugar, potatoes, some beef and pork, lots of milk. (They ate peaty.) If you choose pro-metabolic foods, you can eat way more calories than the current recommendations. Back then, people didn’t do any cardio and were still way leaner, despite eating more calories."
You can look it up via this thead:

Ray Peat Interview - Dr. Ray Peat, Brad Marshall on the History of PUFA and Obesity (Part 1). Show-Title: A Neighbor's Choice.

View: https://rumble.com/v14myc7-dr.-ray-peat-brad-marshall-on-the-history-of-pufa-and-obesity-part-1.html

raypeatforum.com

Regarding Peat himself:
He is over 80 years old and eats about 500g of carbohydrate per day, that is 2.000 calories from carbs alone!
So with fat and protein he is closer to 3.000 calories.
Source:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZCgpw6_sRA

This is very interesting. Thanks for replying.

 

[Jib]

Yeah. So I have a hunch that he’s doing something right, but not necessarily everything right. I want to figure out what is right for me though because the low energy and anxiety have been quite bad lately.

Same for me -- and adding potassium has been helping me. According to Garrett, fatigue and anxiety are symptoms of potassium deficiency. He also makes it clear that not everyone responds well to it and different people do better with different forms. I'm doing OK with potassium chloride but am going to try potassium gluconate and see how that goes. Apparently that form works for a lot of people. These are very cheap and easy to get.

As for dosing, a few hundred milligrams at a time seems okay, keeping it to about 1,500mg supplemental potassium per day max. Keeping in mind the RDA for potassium is 4.7 grams daily, which most people don't even come close to. But best to start slow and see how you feel with a couple hundred milligrams and take it from there.

The magnesium body spray is another important one. That's been helping me a LOT with anxiety. 1 cup magnesium chloride flakes, 1/2 cup vodka, 1/2 cup water, 1 tablespoon potassium chloride. Mix it all up and put it into a spray bottle. I've been using a lot of it, maybe 60 sprays per day. I find the best places for me are outer arms, knees, calves and feet, and chest/stomach. Under the arms works great as a deodorant but it can sting as the skin is more sensitive there. I also think the zinc picolinate (30-60mg) selenomethionine (200mcg) and molybdenum (150mcg) I've been taking daily are helping.

Especially over the past several months I've been slowly feeling much more stable mentally and emotionally, and having less energy crashes -- especially after eating, which is another alleged *major* sign of potassium deficiency.

Now, there are many people who improve their health tremendously on a Peat-style diet and lifestyle. To me, it's very simple: if it's working, keep doing it, and if it's not, don't.

If someone is doing well on a Peat-style diet with a lot of vitamin A and a lot of sugar, their energy is up, their weight is at a healthy range, they feel good, positive, and energetic and motivated and creative and stable -- great. If someone is doing well on a Garrett-style diet with very low vitamin A and low sugar, and they're getting the same benefits, great.
For me, increasing my fiber intake via beans, corn tortillas and quick oats, lowering my fruit consumption to almost exclusively apples, getting plenty of meat (just about any meat available), supplementing extra minerals, especially potassium and then transdermal magnesium....

...my bowel movements are very regular (2 to 3 times a day, well formed/easily passed), my hands and feet feel warm more often than not, my energy and mood are *way* more stable, I'm sleeping easier, and I've been both more creative and productive. I'm eating far less dairy, though I don't compulsively avoid it, and still have my occasional few cups of homemade whole milk kefir, as well as some sour cream and cheese on my corn tortillas -- not every single time, but enough. It's surprising how simple corn tortillas with some beans and meat inside are satisfying without dairy if you try.

But again, I don't compulsively avoid dairy, but by increasing my intake of beans, primarily, my cravings for it have nearly completely disappeared. I do thoroughly enjoy my whole milk homemade kefir and I still believe the unique bacteria and yeast profile of kefir -- including 'kefiran,' the polysaccharide -- has enough benefits to warrant its consumption. Vitamin A or not, homemade kefir really hits the spot in a unique way and I'm going to continue having it. Though I will say I've gone from having it every single day to a couple to a few times a week, just going by my natural cravings.

Anyway, I could keep going, but maybe give the potassium a try. And the magnesium spray. Anxiety and fatigue have been my primary symptoms for nearly my entire life and those two minerals have gone a long way in helping me as of late.