Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[aniciete]

For me personally I think there were a few reasons the low A diet helped me which this thread, time and experimenting helped me figure out. I want to thank @Amazoniac, @charlie, @md_a in particular for their input but also a huge thanks goes to everyone who was willing to be part of this controversial topic.
I don’t convert carotenes well.
I took too many vitamin A supplements over the years while eating liver and fortified dairy regularly.
I suspect other deficiencies (mainly zinc and b vitamins) from long term celiac related gut damage.
These are the main things I think for me personally although there may have been others contributing factors. I still eat low to moderate A most days and virtually no carotenes. I’m leaning toward the idea that a good metabolism does help people handle higher amounts of A which I did not having coming to Peat.

are there any symptoms in particular that you notice from poor carotene conversion? I started drinking Guernsey milk which is very high in carotene and also a lot of melon. My skin has started flaking a lot, my calluses are orange and my stools are orange. Could I be a poor carotene converter?

 

[Blossom]

@aniciete My skin was dry and flaky, my palms and soles were orange and my cholesterol was super high. I do not seem to get that from A in animal foods like eggs and dairy. I’ve been running an experiment lately though and I’ll get blood work done at the end of this month.

 

[aniciete]

@aniciete My skin was dry and flaky, my palms and soles were orange and my cholesterol was super high. I do not seem to get that from A in animal foods like eggs and dairy. I’ve been running an experiment lately though and I’ll get blood work done at the end of this month.

Thank you. I also do not get these symptoms from eggs or goat milk. I get plenty of b12 from buffalo to convert the carotene so it must be something deeper causing this issue.

 

[Blossom]

Thank you. I also do not get these symptoms from eggs or goat milk. I get plenty of b12 from buffalo to convert the carotene so it must be something deeper causing this issue.

Yes, I get plenty of b12 too.

 

[Korven]

Someone posted this study on Grant's forum (https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jcbn1986/11/3/11_3_205/_pdf) where vitamin A deficient rats had an increased endogenous production of oxalates. And after giving them retinol palmitate this went away.

There's also this study on vitamin A deficiency in rats leading to increased oxalate absorption (Effect of vitamin A deficiency on oxalate uptake by rat intestinal brush border membrane vesicles (BBMV) and its contribution towards urolithiasis - PubMed):

"In conclusion, the results indicate that vitamin A deficiency leads to hyperabsorption of oxalate through the gut."

Could be worth considering if someone has been doing super low VA for an extended period of time and/or suspects an oxalate problem.

I think I have a problem with oxalates, possibly caused by taking several courses of doxycycline in the past. And eating lots of spinach smoothies. I still don't really know what triggers the condition to get worse, obviously super high oxalates foods are bad but sometimes I get the "sand in neck" feeling for seemingly no reason. Hm...

@Blossom I am curious about the results of your experimentation!

 

[Dolomite]

Someone posted this study on Grant's forum (https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jcbn1986/11/3/11_3_205/_pdf) where vitamin A deficient rats had an increased endogenous production of oxalates. And after giving them retinol palmitate this went away.

There's also this study on vitamin A deficiency in rats leading to increased oxalate absorption (Effect of vitamin A deficiency on oxalate uptake by rat intestinal brush border membrane vesicles (BBMV) and its contribution towards urolithiasis - PubMed):

"In conclusion, the results indicate that vitamin A deficiency leads to hyperabsorption of oxalate through the gut."

Could be worth considering if someone has been doing super low VA for an extended period of time and/or suspects an oxalate problem.

I think I have a problem with oxalates, possibly caused by taking several courses of doxycycline in the past. And eating lots of spinach smoothies. I still don't really know what triggers the condition to get worse, obviously super high oxalates foods are bad but sometimes I get the "sand in neck" feeling for seemingly no reason. Hm...

@Blossom I am curious about the results of your experimentation!

I am not Blossom, obviously, but I eat a low vit A diet. The only time I had trouble with oxalates was about 2 months into low vit A eating and after that I haven't noticed anything. I eat white peeled potatoes 2 times per day.

Perhaps the initial reduction in circulating vit A caused some increase in oxalates for me that resolved.

 

[Korven]

I am not Blossom, obviously, but I eat a low vit A diet. The only time I had trouble with oxalates was about 2 months into low vit A eating and after that I haven't noticed anything. I eat white peeled potatoes 2 times per day.

Perhaps the initial reduction in circulating vit A caused some increase in oxalates for me that resolved.

Thanks for sharing your experience. How much potatoes do you consume on a daily basis? I think potatoes gives me oxalate issues.

 

[Dolomite]

Thanks for sharing your experience. How much potatoes do you consume on a daily basis? I think potatoes gives me oxalate issues.

I know potatoes are supposed to be high oxalate. I peel them and bake them and hold them in the fridge for a few days. I eat the equivalent of 2-3 medium size almost everyday. I don't eat any spinach or other greens anymore. I think chocolate is supposed to be high oxalate but I eat a lot of that, too.

 

[Blossom]

Someone posted this study on Grant's forum (https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jcbn1986/11/3/11_3_205/_pdf) where vitamin A deficient rats had an increased endogenous production of oxalates. And after giving them retinol palmitate this went away.

There's also this study on vitamin A deficiency in rats leading to increased oxalate absorption (Effect of vitamin A deficiency on oxalate uptake by rat intestinal brush border membrane vesicles (BBMV) and its contribution towards urolithiasis - PubMed):

"In conclusion, the results indicate that vitamin A deficiency leads to hyperabsorption of oxalate through the gut."

Could be worth considering if someone has been doing super low VA for an extended period of time and/or suspects an oxalate problem.

I think I have a problem with oxalates, possibly caused by taking several courses of doxycycline in the past. And eating lots of spinach smoothies. I still don't really know what triggers the condition to get worse, obviously super high oxalates foods are bad but sometimes I get the "sand in neck" feeling for seemingly no reason. Hm...

@Blossom I am curious about the results of your experimentation!

Wow, thank you! I’m getting blood work done 4/25. I’m not sure what’s going on but I had a gut flare up last summer after I had been back to eating some A from animal sources for over a year. It might have been increasing my carbs from honey too quickly though since apparently sugar can increase oxalate. I’m trying to figure out things so I greatly appreciate the tag. I’ve remained low oxalate besides one mess up during thanksgiving of last year but my oxalate issues seem pretty bad still so something I’m stumped.

 

[Korven]

Wow, thank you! I’m getting blood work done 4/25. I’m not sure what’s going on but I had a gut flare up last summer after I had been back to eating some A from animal sources for over a year. It might have been increasing my carbs from honey too quickly though since apparently sugar can increase oxalate. I’m trying to figure out things so I greatly appreciate the tag. I’ve remained low oxalate besides one mess up during thanksgiving of last year but my oxalate issues seem pretty bad still so something I’m stumped.

Sorry to hear that since you seemed to be doing so well. It is confusing that some see improvements in their perceived oxalate issues on a low VA diet when studies done on rats suggest that vitamin A is an important nutrient to protect against stone formation/oxalate absorption. Maybe you know all of this already but besides vitamin A, vitamin B6 (as well as B1) are also important for oxalate metabolism:

"The study was conducted to investigate the effect of vitamin A, B1 and B6 deficiency on oxalate metabolism in rats. A significant hyperoxaluria was the common observation in all the three vitamin deficiencies (vitamin B6> vitamin A > vitamin B1). The activities of hepatic glycolate oxidase and glycolate dehydrogenase were markedly enhanced in vitamin-A- and vitamin-B6-deficient rats. However, lactate dehydrogenase levels remained unaltered in these deficiencies as compared to their respective pair-fed controls. Vitamin B1 deficiency of 4 weeks’ duration could augment the activity of glycolate oxidase only, with no alterations in the glycolate dehydrogenase and lactate dehydrogenase levels. Intestinal oxalate uptake studies revealed increased bio-availability of oxalate from the gut in vitamin-A- and vitamin-B6-deficient rats. Thus, the results suggest the relative contribution of both exogenous as well as endogenous oxalate in the process of calculogenesis under various nutritional stress conditions in rat." Comparative Studies on the Effect of Vitamin A, B1 and B6 Deficiency on Oxalate Metabolism in Male Rats

Here's another rat study where vitamin A was protective against stone formation: Effect of vitamin A supplemented diet on calcium oxalate renal stone formation in rats - PubMed

@Sulcuscentralis probably has something valuable to add here as I know he has dealt with the same issue.

 

[Blossom]

Sorry to hear that since you seemed to be doing so well. It is confusing that some see improvements in their perceived oxalate issues on a low VA diet when studies done on rats suggest that vitamin A is an important nutrient to protect against stone formation/oxalate absorption. Maybe you know all of this already but besides vitamin A, vitamin B6 (as well as B1) are also important for oxalate metabolism:

"The study was conducted to investigate the effect of vitamin A, B1 and B6 deficiency on oxalate metabolism in rats. A significant hyperoxaluria was the common observation in all the three vitamin deficiencies (vitamin B6> vitamin A > vitamin B1). The activities of hepatic glycolate oxidase and glycolate dehydrogenase were markedly enhanced in vitamin-A- and vitamin-B6-deficient rats. However, lactate dehydrogenase levels remained unaltered in these deficiencies as compared to their respective pair-fed controls. Vitamin B1 deficiency of 4 weeks’ duration could augment the activity of glycolate oxidase only, with no alterations in the glycolate dehydrogenase and lactate dehydrogenase levels. Intestinal oxalate uptake studies revealed increased bio-availability of oxalate from the gut in vitamin-A- and vitamin-B6-deficient rats. Thus, the results suggest the relative contribution of both exogenous as well as endogenous oxalate in the process of calculogenesis under various nutritional stress conditions in rat." Comparative Studies on the Effect of Vitamin A, B1 and B6 Deficiency on Oxalate Metabolism in Male Rats

Here's another rat study where vitamin A was protective against stone formation: Effect of vitamin A supplemented diet on calcium oxalate renal stone formation in rats - PubMed

@Sulcuscentralis probably has something valuable to add here as I know he has dealt with the same issue.

Korven, you’re right. I was doing really well all things considered until last Summer and into Fall. I do take thiamine and a b-complex which seems greatly helpful and necessary but perhaps I should consider a separate b6 as well. I’m leaning toward this flare being stress induced at this point to be perfectly honest. It may not have had much to do with food or diet at all. It’s been an extraordinarily stressful time for many people but I have been working overtime for most of the last 2+ years at a job I don’t exactly love. When I reflect back things have been quite intense for the past 5 years actually and the c-vid drama just added to everything. Peat has mentioned how damaging stress can be many times. I’m just grateful I haven’t fallen into learned helplessness. You have my sincere and heartfelt thanks for your concern and sharing these connections with me.

 

[Korven]

Korven, you’re right. I was doing really well all things considered until last Summer and into Fall. I do take thiamine and a b-complex which seems greatly helpful and necessary but perhaps I should consider a separate b6 as well. I’m leaning toward this flare being stress induced at this point to be perfectly honest. It may not have had much to do with food or diet at all. It’s been an extraordinarily stressful time for many people but I have been working overtime for most of the last 2+ years at a job I don’t exactly love. When I reflect back things have been quite intense for the past 5 years actually and the c-vid drama just added to everything. Peat has mentioned how damaging stress can be many times. I’m just grateful I haven’t fallen into learned helplessness. You have my sincere and heartfelt thanks for your concern and sharing these connections with me.

That does make sense, I can't begin to fathom how stressful it must have been to work in a hospital setting during Covid! I feel like the stress from friends and family going for the jab/boosters and just the insanity these past 2 years is enough to cause ill health.

I have no doubt you will find a solution as you seem to have a track record of overcoming challenges :)

 

[Amazoniac]

- Lecithin: Retinol acyltransferase and retinyl esters—is balance the essence in carcinogenesis?

Spoiler

"Lecithin:retinol acyltransferase (LRAT) is a microsomal enzyme that catalyzes the esterification of all-trans-retinol to all-trans retinyl esters by transferring the acyl group from the sn-1 position of phosphatidylcholine (shown in Fig. 1)."

- Molecular and Biochemical Characterization of Lecithin Retinol Acyltransferase

Spoiler

"Although it is known that both acyltransferases remove acyl groups from lecithin to esterify their respective substrates, retinol for LRAT and cholesterol for lecithin:cholesterol acyltransferase, it is possible that each process occurs in a mechanistically different manner. In fact, LRAT has regiospecificity for acyl groups at position sn-1, whereas lecithin:cholesterol acyltransferase possesses regiospecificity for acyl groups at position sn-2 of membrane phospholipids (11, 22, 34, 35)."

- Potential Roles of Fatty Acids and Lipids in Postharvest Needle Abscission Physiology

Spoiler

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- Profound gene expression changes in the epithelial monolayer of active ulcerative colitis and Crohn’s disease

Spoiler

"In our analysis of epithelial expression, we found retinoic acid receptors RARA (Lightsteelblue), RARB (Brown) and RXRA (Lightsteelblue) to be downregulated in active IBD. The epithelial response to RA involves both antiproliferative [41–43] and differentiational effects, but also influence the integrity of the epithelial barrier [44]. RA-signaling has been shown to enhance the barrier properties of canine kidney cells (MDCK) through the regulation of tight junction-associated genes [45], and it has been demonstrated that RA affects mucin expression in rats [46]. In addition, RA increased both transepithelial resistance and expression of TLR4 in Caco-2 cells [47]. Regulation of RARB in UC epithelium has previously been observed by Barnicle et al., who found an inverse correlation between methylation status and RARB expression in UC epithelium [48]. RARB is also found to be downregulated in several types of cancer, including colon cancer [49], and it has been demonstrated that silencing of RARB correlates with impaired RARα-signaling [50]. Epithelial downregulation of RARA in IBD has not, to our knowledge, previously been reported. Li et al. recently found Rxra to be downregulated during DSS-induced colitis [51], and it has been demonstrated that TNFα and IL-1 suppress RXRA expression in liver cells [52]. In addition to RARs, RXRs are capable of dimerizing with numerous non-RAR nuclear receptors, including LXRα (NR1H3), FXR (NR1H4) and PXR (NR1I2) [53], who were all found to be downregulated in the epithelial compartment during active IBD.

Interestingly, our data also showed an increased expression of genes encoding retinoid metabolizing enzymes; RDH11, RALDH2/ALDH1A2 and RALDH3/ALDH1A3 (Blue). Retinal dehydrogenases (RALDHs) are considered rate limiting enzymes of RA-synthesis [35]. Smillie et al. also reported an increased expression of ALDH1A2 in UC patients with active inflammation, a regulation unique to enterocytes [19]. This might suggest that IECs contribute to the increased mucosal RA levels observed in IBD patients. This apparent discrepancy between epithelial cells producing more retinoic acid, while at the same time downregulating the expression of RA-responsive receptors is puzzling. Considering previous studies, it might be speculated that epithelial cells contribute to inflammatory cell modulation through increased RA synthesis and secretion, while downregulating the receptor expression to prevent the growth-inhibitory effect on the epithelium during mucosal healing in an RA-saturated milieu. The importance of RA in regulating both the immune system and epithelial barrier integrity makes our findings interesting, in need of further attention."

 

[Abcdefgmo]

A lot of the detrimental effects are from Vitamin A antagonizing copper and blocking estrogen too much
Vitamin A literally gives me the same side effects of an aromatase inhibitor
And it's too parasympathetic

Plus dietary cholesterol has been shown to mess with copper absorption just like fructose does, and so if you want to improve your copper status you have to eat low cholesterol, which happens to be foods with preformed Vitamin A

Think of how many people have problems with eggs and dairy, theres no way they're essential to your diet

Just eat good proteins like chicken and egg whites, limit too much red meat because of the iron, eat fruits and vegetables, and maybe add in things like rice

 

[Blossom]

Ideas, Concepts, and Observations

Investigating why so many are so sick.

ggenereux.blog

Grant’s latest blog post.
I haven’t gotten my blood work done yet because I lost my job and I’m adjusting my budget. I’ve been back on low a pretty strictly since around early March iirc. The good news is that I’m feeling pretty good but I also have way less stress right now.

 

[Amazoniac]

Ideas, Concepts, and Observations

Investigating why so many are so sick.

ggenereux.blog

Grant’s latest blog post.
I haven’t gotten my blood work done yet because I lost my job and I’m adjusting my budget. I’ve been back on low a pretty strictly since around early March iirc. The good news is that I’m feeling pretty good but I also have way less stress right now.

Blossom, respect to you for being able to keep the spirit up.

Regarding Grant's update, if the irritating agent was casein, he would be looking for hidden retinoic acid in it and conjecture that it's peeling the eyes somehow. Unfortunately, with onions he can't resort to such explanation despite both producting similar effects.

An alternative peeler from elsewhere:

- Unravelling the Interplay between Extracellular Acidosis and Immune Cells

"Extracellular acidosis is a hallmark of inflammatory processes. Accumulation of protons in the extracellular space is frequently associated with the course of inflammatory responses against bacteria in peripheral tissues, where pH values as low as 5.5 have been described [1–6]. In this scenario, local acidosis appears to be induced by three major factors: (1) tissue hypoxia caused by the damage of small blood vessels and the metabolic activity of infiltrating leukocytes, resulting in a switch towards glycolytic metabolism and the subsequent accumulation of lactic acid [7–12]; (2) the massive production of protons by neutrophils during the activation of the respiratory burst [13–15]; and (3) the accumulation of short-chain fatty acids produced by bacteria [16–18]. Autoimmune and allergic diseases are also associated to the accumulation of protons in the extracellular space at the sites of tissue injury."​

On the liver program, even though it's a saner target than poison A depletion, the person can stay on a relieving program indefinitely (?) if the cause of liver burden isn't addressed, which in most cases is not due to excess poison A. The likely scenario is mucosal tissue disorder with a maladapted immune system.

 

[Blossom]

Thanks for your input @Amazoniac as always it’s appreciated.

 

[youngsinatra]

I think Matt will crash really bad soon. Quite sad. He thinks he is retinol deficient, even though his last lab results showed high serum retinol.

He goes through one bottle in 5-7 days according to his last stories. That ~30‘000 IU per day..


View: https://www.instagram.com/p/Cauzo20JPR_o2esvQr-eYB5BWRSmm_mYmfprCg0/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

[TheCalciumCad]

I think Matt will crash really bad soon. Quite sad. He thinks he is retinol deficient, even though his last lab results showed high serum retinol.

He goes through one bottle in 5-7 days according to his last stories. That ~30‘000 IU per day..


View: https://www.instagram.com/p/Cauzo20JPR_o2esvQr-eYB5BWRSmm_mYmfprCg0/

Whats he doing? I don't follow him and can't see the post.

 

[Blossom]

@TheCalciumCad, taking cod liver oil.