Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Daniil]

A

I get sensitive teeth pretty quickly from whole grains and brown rice. I think it would be important to keep calcium and zinc intake high when eating mainly whole grains for carbs. White bread has no such effect at all. But I Think you are right about it being good for clearing bile and staying regular.. there really is no one ideal food/diet. Always feels like finding the lesser evil

Agree. From wholegrain products, teeth are fall out just like that. Sugar was nowhere near.

 

[Vinero]

I get sensitive teeth pretty quickly from whole grains and brown rice. I think it would be important to keep calcium and zinc intake high when eating mainly whole grains for carbs. White bread has no such effect at all. But I Think you are right about it being good for clearing bile and staying regular.. there really is no one ideal food/diet. Always feels like finding the lesser evil

Interesting. I actually got tooth sensitivity too the first few days of introducing the whole wheat sourdough. But after the first few days it went away, just like the intestinal rumbling. I wonder what the mechanism could be, of whole grains causing sensitive teeth.
I try to keep my zinc intake up, by having one meal a day of white rice + beef.
I don't know how to keep my calcium intake high since I can't tolerate dairy except for small amount of butter. Everytime I introduced milk or cheese it ended badly.
Calcium supplements mess up my intestines. Leafy greens are way to high in carotenoids/oxalates to get any appreciable amount of calcium.

 

[InChristAlone]

Whole grains have a lot of phytic acid and that's why it can cause teeth problems because it binds minerals. Traditional preparation of whole grains would include some amount of soaking and fermenting to release the minerals.

 

[Apple]

Whole grains have a lot of phytic acid and that's why it can cause teeth problems because it binds minerals. Traditional preparation of whole grains would include some amount of soaking and fermenting to release the minerals.

But... all the discribed manipulations on grains significantly increase bioavailable phosphorus which you want to keep low since it is pro aging and pro inflamatory while phytic acid is a known antioxidant (IP6).

 

[InChristAlone]

But... all the discribed manipulations on grains significantly increase bioavailable phosphorus which you want to keep low since it is pro aging and pro inflamatory while phytic acid is a known antioxidant (IP6).

As long as minerals are in balance then it would be fine to consume it, but if teeth are disintegrating then it would be wise to either eliminate it or increase minerals.

 

[InChristAlone]

Interesting. I actually got tooth sensitivity too the first few days of introducing the whole wheat sourdough. But after the first few days it went away, just like the intestinal rumbling. I wonder what the mechanism could be, of whole grains causing sensitive teeth.
I try to keep my zinc intake up, by having one meal a day of white rice + beef.
I don't know how to keep my calcium intake high since I can't tolerate dairy except for small amount of butter. Everytime I introduced milk or cheese it ended badly.
Calcium supplements mess up my intestines. Leafy greens are way to high in carotenoids/oxalates to get any appreciable amount of calcium.

Do you think your good effects with whole wheat is a sign you need more thiamine to process the carbs?

 

[Vinero]

Do you think your good effects with whole wheat is a sign you need more thiamine to process the carbs?

I don't think thiamin is the key, since I've experimented with thiamine supplements many times, and never experienced the type of benefits that I get from the whole wheat bread. Sometimes thiamine would give me adrenaline type reactions, even after high-carb meals.
That is thiamine from supplements ofcourse. Maybe the food-based thiamin in whole grains works better. It's possible.

But that doesn't explain why I respond so well to whole wheat, whereas my responses to other grains that contain plenty of thiamin like oats and barley have been very poor.
Whole wheat feels special, compared to other grains. I suspect it's simply the fact that whole wheat is the grain with most of the fiber being insoluble. Other grains all have too much soluble fiber which can cause cholestasis if you have gut dysbiosis.

 

[InChristAlone]

I don't think thiamin is the key, since I've experimented with thiamine supplements many times, and never experienced the type of benefits that I get from the whole wheat bread. Sometimes thiamine would give me adrenaline type reactions, even after high-carb meals.
That is thiamine from supplements ofcourse. Maybe the food-based thiamin in whole grains works better. It's possible.

But that doesn't explain why I respond so well to whole wheat, whereas my responses to other grains that contain plenty of thiamin like oats and barley have been very poor.
Whole wheat feels special, compared to other grains. I suspect it's simply the fact that whole wheat is the grain with most of the fiber being insoluble. Other grains all have too much soluble fiber which can cause cholestasis if you have gut dysbiosis.

I just read a long paper by Weston A Price and he cured many patients of cavities along with some miraculous cures of rheumatism with high vitamin butter oil, milk, cream and freshly ground wheat and wheat germ! Maybe it's the vitamin E in the whole wheat as well.

 

[Vinero]

I just read a long paper by Weston A Price and he cured many patients of cavities along with some miraculous cures of rheumatism with high vitamin butter oil, milk, cream and freshly ground wheat and wheat germ! Maybe it's the vitamin E in the whole wheat as well.

I do believe from my experiences with butter and whole milk, that there are protective substances in butterfat. Butter immediately improved my vision and skin health for example. Grant also thinks that something in butterfat seems to rapidly decrease vitamin A toxicity symptoms.
But since butter contains some vitamin A, in large amounts it can cause problems.

Non-fat dairy products like skim milk or no-fat yogurt are the worst. This is because the casein contains vitamin A, but there is no protective butterfat to inhibit the toxic effects.
This is also confirmed by my experience with zero-fat yogurt. I felt very drowsy, depressed, and inflamed for 3 days.
Butter in small amounts has completely opposite effects. It improves my mood, energy levels, and lowers my inflammation. Butter only makes me drowsy if I overdo it.

Do you happen to know if the fresh ground wheat contained phytic acid? Or was it neutralized somehow?

Maybe whole wheat bread with some butter is the ultimate health-food. Maybe the calcium in the milk might be important as well.

Another possibility is that the insoluble fiber in whole wheat keeps the bowels moving and prevents cholestasis. No cholestasis would mean vitamin A and bile will be eliminated much faster, so the person is able to have moderate amounts of vitamin A in milk and butter without it causing problems.
It's all about how fast you can remove the vitamin A. Obviously milk and cheese have valueable nutrients like calcium, b-vitamins etc.
Maybe a person could eat butter and whole milk, as long as they eat enough insoluble fiber so their vitamin A levels do not build up too high.

 

[InChristAlone]

I do believe from my experiences with butter and whole milk, that there are protective substances in butterfat. Butter immediately improved my vision and skin health for example. Grant also thinks that something in butterfat seems to rapidly decrease vitamin A toxicity symptoms.
But since butter contains some vitamin A, in large amounts it can cause problems.

Non-fat dairy products like skim milk or no-fat yogurt are the worst. This is because the casein contains vitamin A, but there is no protective butterfat to inhibit the toxic effects.
This is also confirmed by my experience with zero-fat yogurt. I felt very drowsy, depressed, and inflamed for 3 days.
Butter in small amounts has completely opposite effects. It improves my mood, energy levels, and lowers my inflammation. Butter only makes me drowsy if I overdo it.

Do you happen to know if the fresh ground wheat contained phytic acid? Or was it neutralized somehow?

Maybe whole wheat bread with some butter is the ultimate health-food. Maybe the calcium in the milk might be important as well.

Another possibility is that the insoluble fiber in whole wheat keeps the bowels moving and prevents cholestasis. No cholestasis would mean vitamin A and bile will be eliminated much faster, so the person is able to have moderate amounts of vitamin A in milk and butter without it causing problems.
It's all about how fast you can remove the vitamin A. Obviously milk and cheese have valueable nutrients like calcium, b-vitamins etc.
Maybe a person could eat butter and whole milk, as long as they eat enough insoluble fiber so their vitamin A levels do not build up too high.

Yeah I've never felt any negative effects from butter nor from cream actually. Milk is a problem for me I think due to the lactose. Yeah I would never ever do skim milk, I'd feel like hell!

I think all whole grains contain phytic acid unless fermented, but it's been a long time since I was into whole grains and fermentation so I'd have to do a refresher on all that. Actually I was thinking about my forays into the WAPF stuff and I used to make these amazing whole wheat sourdough pancakes once a week because I'd use my homemade raw milk kefir to soak it overnight. Now that was a nourishing food! I was in way better health back then. I was really dropping my obsession with the Peat stuff thinking about it. My health really really took a nose dive when I decided to go all out with the sugar and juice and completely lost all my passion for making and sourcing nourishing foods.

I think you are on to something with the whole wheat helping cholestasis.

 

[tallglass13]

I do believe from my experiences with butter and whole milk, that there are protective substances in butterfat. Butter immediately improved my vision and skin health for example. Grant also thinks that something in butterfat seems to rapidly decrease vitamin A toxicity symptoms.
But since butter contains some vitamin A, in large amounts it can cause problems.

Non-fat dairy products like skim milk or no-fat yogurt are the worst. This is because the casein contains vitamin A, but there is no protective butterfat to inhibit the toxic effects.
This is also confirmed by my experience with zero-fat yogurt. I felt very drowsy, depressed, and inflamed for 3 days.
Butter in small amounts has completely opposite effects. It improves my mood, energy levels, and lowers my inflammation. Butter only makes me drowsy if I overdo it.

Do you happen to know if the fresh ground wheat contained phytic acid? Or was it neutralized somehow?

Maybe whole wheat bread with some butter is the ultimate health-food. Maybe the calcium in the milk might be important as well.

Another possibility is that the insoluble fiber in whole wheat keeps the bowels moving and prevents cholestasis. No cholestasis would mean vitamin A and bile will be eliminated much faster, so the person is able to have moderate amounts of vitamin A in milk and butter without it causing problems.
It's all about how fast you can remove the vitamin A. Obviously milk and cheese have valueable nutrients like calcium, b-vitamins etc.
Maybe a person could eat butter and whole milk, as long as they eat enough insoluble fiber so their vitamin A levels do not build up too high.

I have been getting this Pale goat butter, its white. Very good, and I get nice reactions to it. I have a feeling it has lower carotenes and VA since its white.

 

[Vanset]

I have been getting this Pale goat butter, its white. Very good, and I get nice reactions to it. I have a feeling it has lower carotenes and VA since its white.

same here. i have been having like 40-50 grams of goat's butter daily and slowly feeling a bit better.

it's white and tastes completely different from cow's butter, it's also harder.
goat dairy overall seems to be in a completely different league compared to cow's imo. at least from how i react to it.

 

[Jam]

Goat butter is the bomb. I churn some weekly from raw goat milk, and it is indeed very white and very tasty.

 

[InChristAlone]

Goats turn carotenoids into retinol way easier than cows so that explains it being white.

 

[tallglass13]

Tilapia grilled/cooked in Pale Goat butter, over Organic White Jasmine Rice is a very tasty and wonderful meal , if anyone is interested.

 

[Amazoniac]

From what I've been reading, our detox facilitator has now a new program, it's no surprise given how the former poison A detox enterprise was set to failure. The current one meant to heal the liver was chosen wisely, it's a sustainable revenue. Based on members' posts, it seems to introduce novel concepts like avoiding constipation, eating adequate protein, preventing microbial deconjugation, promoting the excretion of excess bile. Not sure why these topics are being treat as unfamiliar, they are discussed exhaustively by Raj and have been around for a long time (check out when Élie Metchnikoff's books were published, for example).

Beans are considered special for their bile-binding propeperties. However, there are foods that are much more effective at it. One of these is from another thread:

- In vitro binding of bile acids by soy protein, pinto beans, black beans and wheat gluten

Spoiler

- Steam cooking significantly improves in vitro bile acid binding of beets, eggplant, asparagus, carrots, green beans, and cauliflower

Spoiler

- Steam cooking significantly improves in vitro bile acid binding of collard greens, kale, mustard greens, broccoli, green bell pepper, and cabbage

Spoiler

It's based on dry matter, but beans hydrate a lot after preparation. You probably don't derive the same benefit from superior binders. On one hand, beans contain valuable nutrients for the metabolism of poison A, so, if it recirculates from bile, those nutrients would be digested along. On the other hand, judging by the opinions here on dietary fat, not appearing to be handled well, beans are a questionable choice to carry bile out after stimulation.

The person can try supplemental morbydenum, but the overall effect from beans is likely better. It might be attributed to bile binding, yet, an aspect that makes beans special is the fermentable carbohydrates present in substantial amounts. It's worth paying attention if a reduction in the content affects the response. Related to it, the effect from apple and its pectin shouldn't be overlooked.

We have to remember that the majority of members that found relief in poison/"vitamin" A restriction had a past of gut issues, possibly involving mucosal injury where those fermentable carbs can be therapeutic.

Suggestion: watch out for quack hypnosis.

 

[Amazoniac]

- Farnesoid X receptor and bile acids regulate vitamin A storage

The nuclear receptor Farnesoid X Receptor (FXR) is activated by bile acids and controls multiple metabolic processes, including bile acid, lipid, carbohydrate, amino acid and energy metabolism. Vitamin A is needed for proper metabolic and immune control and requires bile acids for efficient intestinal absorption and storage in the liver. Here, we analyzed whether FXR regulates vitamin A metabolism. Compared to control animals, FXR-null mice showed strongly reduced (>90%) hepatic levels of retinol and retinyl palmitate and a significant reduction in lecithin retinol acyltransferase (LRAT), the enzyme responsible for hepatic vitamin A storage. Hepatic reintroduction of FXR in FXR-null mice induced vitamin A storage in the liver. Hepatic vitamin A levels were normal in intestine-specific FXR-null mice. Obeticholic acid (OCA, 3 weeks) treatment rapidly reduced (>60%) hepatic retinyl palmitate levels in mice, concurrent with strongly increased retinol levels (>5-fold). Similar, but milder effects were observed in cholic acid (12 weeks)-treated mice. OCA did not change hepatic LRAT protein levels, but strongly reduced all enzymes involved in hepatic retinyl ester hydrolysis, involving mostly post-transcriptional mechanisms. In conclusion, vitamin A metabolism in the mouse liver heavily depends on the FXR and FXR-targeted therapies may be prone to cause vitamin A-related pathologies.

---

- Prevention of retinoic acid-induced early craniofacial abnormalities by vitamin B12 in mice

 

[youngsinatra]

Modification of vitamin A metabolism in rats fed a copper-deficient diet​

Modification of vitamin A metabolism in rats fed a copper-deficient diet - PubMed

The liver is the main storage site of vitamin A and copper. Inverse relationships between copper and vitamin A liver concentrations have been suggested. We have investigated the consequences of a copper-deficient diet on liver and blood vitamin A storage in Wistar rats. Animals were fed either a...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

„We have observed in the liver of the rats fed a copper-deficient diet a significantly higher mean level of retinyl esters (148 +/- 37 micrograms/g of liver) and retinol (3.3 +/- 1.4 micrograms/g of liver) compared to the mean concentration of the retinyl esters (53 +/- 8.5 micrograms/g of liver) (p less than 0.01) and retinol (1.4 +/- 0.5 micrograms/g of liver) (p less than 0.01) in controls.“

 

[InChristAlone]

Modification of vitamin A metabolism in rats fed a copper-deficient diet​

Modification of vitamin A metabolism in rats fed a copper-deficient diet - PubMed

The liver is the main storage site of vitamin A and copper. Inverse relationships between copper and vitamin A liver concentrations have been suggested. We have investigated the consequences of a copper-deficient diet on liver and blood vitamin A storage in Wistar rats. Animals were fed either a...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

„We have observed in the liver of the rats fed a copper-deficient diet a significantly higher mean level of retinyl esters (148 +/- 37 micrograms/g of liver) and retinol (3.3 +/- 1.4 micrograms/g of liver) compared to the mean concentration of the retinyl esters (53 +/- 8.5 micrograms/g of liver) (p less than 0.01) and retinol (1.4 +/- 0.5 micrograms/g of liver) (p less than 0.01) in controls.“

So would you say Garrett is wrong that copper is not needed? Though if you are eating beans I think copper would be fine as they are a pretty good source.

 

[InChristAlone]

From what I've been reading, our detox facilitator has now a new program, it's no surprise given how the former poison A detox enterprise was set to failure. The current one meant to heal the liver was chosen wisely, it's a sustainable revenue. Based on members' posts, it seems to introduce novel concepts like avoiding constipation, eating adequate protein, preventing microbial deconjugation, promoting the excretion of excess bile. Not sure why these topics are being treat as unfamiliar, they are discussed exhaustively by Raj and have been around for a long time (check out when Élie Metchnikoff's books were published, for example).

Beans are considered special for their bile-binding propeperties. However, there are foods that are much more effective at it. One of these is from another thread:

- In vitro binding of bile acids by soy protein, pinto beans, black beans and wheat gluten

Spoiler

View attachment 32653

- Steam cooking significantly improves in vitro bile acid binding of beets, eggplant, asparagus, carrots, green beans, and cauliflower

Spoiler

View attachment 32655

- Steam cooking significantly improves in vitro bile acid binding of collard greens, kale, mustard greens, broccoli, green bell pepper, and cabbage

Spoiler

View attachment 32656

It's based on dry matter, but beans hydrate a lot after preparation. You probably don't derive the same benefit from superior binders. On one hand, beans contain valuable nutrients for the metabolism of poison A, so, if it recirculates from bile, those nutrients would be digested along. On the other hand, judging by the opinions here on dietary fat, not appearing to be handled well, beans are a questionable choice to carry bile out after stimulation.

The person can try supplemental morbydenum, but the overall effect from beans is likely better. It might be attributed to bile binding, yet, an aspect that makes beans special is the fermentable carbohydrates present in substantial amounts. It's worth paying attention if a reduction in the content affects the response. Related to it, the effect from apple and its pectin shouldn't be overlooked.

We have to remember that the majority of members that found relief in poison/"vitamin" A restriction had a past of gut issues, possibly involving mucosal injury where those fermentable carbs can be therapeutic.

Suggestion: watch out for quack hypnosis.

Man the only steamed veggies I like are broccoli and green beans. I do have a history of gut issues. I was pretty healthy back when I ate a more typical 'healthy' diet which included greens and other plant foods I stopped eating altogether on the Peat diet. Beans definitely cause issues for me now. What would you say is the best way to incorporate these foods again? Go slowly?