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Anti-Peat Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

Amazoniac

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Not Uganda



This is the most pathetic attack on "Ray Peat" I have ever witnessed, all while pushing a dubious lactoferrin supplement. What little respect I had for Garret Smith is now gone.

For a moment I thought that you've been brainwashed too.

We can't exclude a food based on a factor of it that can be taxing without considering the rest. For example, coffee may be eliminated for being rich in caffeine (xanthine oxidase), supposedly competing for morbydenum with the enzymes that oxidize poisonal, but you'll find that decaffeination doesn't solve the issue for everyone. Despite its caffeine, in the case of fat-soluble "vitamin" overload, bile excretion gains importance and coffee is excellent for stimulating bile discharge and protecting the liver.

Targeting phenol-rich foods (such as blueberries) was predictable, the concern certainly isn't new, you can confirm by the number of digestive enzymes meant for phenols on the market. Again, this can't be sole factor in determining what stays in a diet. The products allow whoever can't consume them in moderation to not eliminate an entire class of foods because of one compound. Without finding a way around inconvenients, you soon end up with extreme restrictions.

A food being rich in pigments doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to be a burden to the body. Some of them are not absorbed and will be protective throughout the gut. For someone like himself that's dealing with hydrogen sulfide excess (highest concentration is in the intestine), they can be therapeutic. There are pigments that remain conserved and are possibly too inert to interact with other molecules; perhaps the useful ones are those that are strong enough to appear in feces, yet with less intensity to indicate that reactions occurred. It wouldn't be surprising if hydrogen sulfide interferred with the utilization of oxygen by carotene oxygenase.

Apparently, he doesn't tolerate sulfate supplementation in any form, not even transdermally. It can be that he's infected and whenever sulfate is in abundance, the body tries to replete afflicted regions, fueling the issue. Applying it with venom D may be an option to modulate the effect.

I'm surprised that poisonoids are rarely reported to complex with sulfur compounds other than taurine.
- The structures of the unique sulfotransferase retinol dehydratase with product and inhibitors provide insight into enzyme mechanism and inhibition

Anyway, he has just stated that sulfur is toxic as well, now we can lump it to the harmful poison A, venom D, thyroiditium/iodine, killcium, milk, potato, every allium and brassica food, colored fruits and vegetables (no longer limited to carotenoids, excluding practically the whole spectrum at this point: violet-red), coconut products, cocoa products, coffee, eggs, and others that I don't remember off the top of my head. The list keeps growing. There was the mockery in renaming fructose as 'awbuzze', for 'alcohol without the buzz sugar', and here we have this guy taking it seriously. Meanwhile, Grant is wondering if there's a need for "vitamin" C in the diet. What a shït show.



- Aldehyde Oxidase Contributes to All-Trans-Retinoic Acid Biosynthesis in Human Liver
 

atlee7757

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Joined
May 6, 2015
Messages
38
For people living in the Northern Latitudes.

It is not just the absolute values of Vit A by itself or Vit D by itself.

The relationship between these two is the key, and understanding how this relationship varies seasonally.

It has been suggested that Vit A and Vit D are protective of each others toxic effects.

Vit D is accumulated in the body through sunlight exposure during the Summer months and if you get enough sunlight, the body stores enough of it to last through the Winter.

Vit A is also accumulated during Summer months and into the fall, as we eat carotenoids in green and brightly colored foods grown in the sun over the Summer.

So around October, each has increased significantly in preparation for Winter and we have no toxic effects since high Vit A is balance with high Vit D.

Vit D levels decay naturally through the winter months and by January/February we probably become deficient.

Vit A is seemingly held in the body very tightly and it’s decay rate is very slow.

So in January/February we might end up with lower Vit D leaving a high Vit A that then becomes toxic.

This situation would be made worse if we continued to consume high Vit A foods like liver and high Beta Carotene foods like Kale or Peppers throughout the Winter. Or if we consumed a Vit A supplement.

It seems as if Nature intended for us to accumulate Vit A for half the year and then use it up for half a year. If we don’t use it up, and, in fact, add to it, then we force the body to try to store it and continue the accumulation until we reach damaging levels.

Our Vit D levels are going to decline naturally during the winter, so I think we have to be very careful to avoid an imbalance of Vit A to Vit D by avoiding all high Vit A/ Beta Carotene foods (and supplements) until at least Spring.

Vitamin A might act like a Vitamin in the Summer and like a Toxin in the winter.
 

Ippodrom47

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Joined
Jun 7, 2021
Messages
66
People here who say they eat lots of potatoes every day - do you mean white-fleshed ones or any potatoes (no sweet potatoes, of course). In my country, they only sell potatoes with yellowish - bright yellow flesh, which give me issues as any other high b-carotene foods.
 

youngsinatra

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Messages
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For a moment I thought that you've been brainwashed too.

We can't exclude a food based on a factor of it that can be taxing without considering the rest. For example, coffee may be eliminated for being rich in caffeine (xanthine oxidase), supposedly competing for morbydenum with the enzymes that oxidize poisonal, but you'll find that decaffeination doesn't solve the issue for everyone. Despite its caffeine, in the case of fat-soluble "vitamin" overload, bile excretion gains importance and coffee is excellent for stimulating bile discharge and protecting the liver.

Targeting phenol-rich foods (such as blueberries) was predictable, the concern certainly isn't new, you can confirm by the number of digestive enzymes meant for phenols on the market. Again, this can't be sole factor in determining what stays in a diet. The products allow whoever can't consume them in moderation to not eliminate an entire class of foods because of one compound. Without finding a way around inconvenients, you soon end up with extreme restrictions.

A food being rich in pigments doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to be a burden to the body. Some of them are not absorbed and will be protective throughout the gut. For someone like himself that's dealing with hydrogen sulfide excess (highest concentration is in the intestine), they can be therapeutic. There are pigments that remain conserved and are possibly too inert to interact with other molecules; perhaps the useful ones are those that are strong enough to appear in feces, yet with less intensity to indicate that reactions occurred. It wouldn't be surprising if hydrogen sulfide interferred with the utilization of oxygen by carotene oxygenase.

Apparently, he doesn't tolerate sulfate supplementation in any form, not even transdermally. It can be that he's infected and whenever sulfate is in abundance, the body tries to replete afflicted regions, fueling the issue. Applying it with venom D may be an option to modulate the effect.

I'm surprised that poisonoids are rarely reported to complex with sulfur compounds other than taurine.
- The structures of the unique sulfotransferase retinol dehydratase with product and inhibitors provide insight into enzyme mechanism and inhibition

Anyway, he has just stated that sulfur is toxic as well, now we can lump it to the harmful poison A, venom D, thyroiditium/iodine, killcium, milk, potato, every allium and brassica food, colored fruits and vegetables (no longer limited to carotenoids, excluding practically the whole spectrum at this point: violet-red), coconut products, cocoa products, coffee, eggs, and others that I don't remember off the top of my head. The list keeps growing. There was the mockery in renaming fructose as 'awbuzze', for 'alcohol without the buzz sugar', and here we have this guy taking it seriously. Meanwhile, Grant is wondering if there's a need for "vitamin" C in the diet. What a shït show.



- Aldehyde Oxidase Contributes to All-Trans-Retinoic Acid Biosynthesis in Human Liver
I agree. The absolutist dualistic purist thinking of Smith and Generoux does not sit well with me, at all.

I become very catious and suspicious if a leader makes absolute claims and the network behind it repeats the mantra the leader determined. It reminds me of my past experiences, being involved in fundamentalists religious groups, where critically questioning the narrative is seen as inappropriate.
 

sugarbabe

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Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
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USA
For a moment I thought that you've been brainwashed too.

We can't exclude a food based on a factor of it that can be taxing without considering the rest. For example, coffee may be eliminated for being rich in caffeine (xanthine oxidase), supposedly competing for morbydenum with the enzymes that oxidize poisonal, but you'll find that decaffeination doesn't solve the issue for everyone. Despite its caffeine, in the case of fat-soluble "vitamin" overload, bile excretion gains importance and coffee is excellent for stimulating bile discharge and protecting the liver.

Targeting phenol-rich foods (such as blueberries) was predictable, the concern certainly isn't new, you can confirm by the number of digestive enzymes meant for phenols on the market. Again, this can't be sole factor in determining what stays in a diet. The products allow whoever can't consume them in moderation to not eliminate an entire class of foods because of one compound. Without finding a way around inconvenients, you soon end up with extreme restrictions.

A food being rich in pigments doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to be a burden to the body. Some of them are not absorbed and will be protective throughout the gut. For someone like himself that's dealing with hydrogen sulfide excess (highest concentration is in the intestine), they can be therapeutic. There are pigments that remain conserved and are possibly too inert to interact with other molecules; perhaps the useful ones are those that are strong enough to appear in feces, yet with less intensity to indicate that reactions occurred. It wouldn't be surprising if hydrogen sulfide interferred with the utilization of oxygen by carotene oxygenase.

Apparently, he doesn't tolerate sulfate supplementation in any form, not even transdermally. It can be that he's infected and whenever sulfate is in abundance, the body tries to replete afflicted regions, fueling the issue. Applying it with venom D may be an option to modulate the effect.

I'm surprised that poisonoids are rarely reported to complex with sulfur compounds other than taurine.
- The structures of the unique sulfotransferase retinol dehydratase with product and inhibitors provide insight into enzyme mechanism and inhibition

Anyway, he has just stated that sulfur is toxic as well, now we can lump it to the harmful poison A, venom D, thyroiditium/iodine, killcium, milk, potato, every allium and brassica food, colored fruits and vegetables (no longer limited to carotenoids, excluding practically the whole spectrum at this point: violet-red), coconut products, cocoa products, coffee, eggs, and others that I don't remember off the top of my head. The list keeps growing. There was the mockery in renaming fructose as 'awbuzze', for 'alcohol without the buzz sugar', and here we have this guy taking it seriously. Meanwhile, Grant is wondering if there's a need for "vitamin" C in the diet. What a shït show.



- Aldehyde Oxidase Contributes to All-Trans-Retinoic Acid Biosynthesis in Human Liver
But phenols are an issue for people with low sulfate. Phenols - Helpful or Harmful?
 

Amazoniac

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But phenols are an issue for people with low sulfate. Phenols - Helpful or Harmful?
Yes, similar to carbs for those that are low in thiamin.

What are you disagreeing with? I acknowledge the issue, but don't think that indiscriminate elimination is a proper way to come up with a diet. We all have different capabilities to metabolize phytonutrients. For someone that can't process phenols adequately, you'd have to consider them with the other negative factors and weigh these against the positives. Before exclusion of one more food group, it makes sense to attempt to mitigate the inconvenients somehow.

Removal of nutrients that aren't essential is feasible, but it remains a rudimentary solution. It's going to alleviate some people, but be unnecessary or detrimental for others. Think of what else may be lost with these restrictions that keep piling up, your beloved "vitamin" C is an example of a compound whose intake can decrease substantially from such measure.

Ironically, various of these compounds are good at protecting the liver (inflammation, infections, chubbification), from the fraction that gets there, but also the one that doesn't.

- Bioavailability and Metabolic Pathway of Phenolic Compounds

"Variation in the phenolic bioavailability ranges from 0.3% in the case of anthocyanins to 43% estimated for isoflavones [49]."​

Not much of a coincidence, someone posted this today:
- Citrus peel powder has a preventive effect on NAFLD, which can be related to the regulation of intestinal flora
 

Eberhardt

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Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
457
I agree. The absolutist dualistic purist thinking of Smith and Generoux does not sit well with me, at all.

I become very catious and suspicious if a leader makes absolute claims and the network behind it repeats the mantra the leader determined. It reminds me of my past experiences, being involved in fundamentalists religious groups, where critically questioning the narrative is seen as inappropriate.
whatever one thinks I would add that Smith is the one (add B6 and copper and vitamin E to his list of not good stuff, maybe even folate) that has the extensive list. Grant does question if we need to eat C as hes seen indications that in the absence of A it might be that we produce it endogenously after all. I dont think tinkering with the idea that we might not need much C is so far out in the ***t show world. The only reason Grant keeps eating so restrictive is to prove that its doable to function without almost any A at all. He doesnt even recommend it. He also suggests no supplements and drinks coffee every day. SO my point is whatever your position the main things here listed is some of Smiths idea and he is not the originator of retinol elimination and the idea of should one ingest vitamin A should not be judged on how one feel about Smiths approach and thoughts
 

sugarbabe

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Also we need to remember Peat also makes absolutist claims, the main big one being all PUFA is toxic.
 

sugarbabe

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Yes, similar to carbs for those that are low in thiamin.

What are you disagreeing with? I acknowledge the issue, but don't think that indiscriminate elimination is a proper way to come up with a diet. We all have different capabilities to metabolize phytonutrients. For someone that can't process phenols adequately, you'd have to consider them with the other negative factors and weigh these against the positives. Before exclusion of one more food group, it makes sense to attempt to mitigate the inconvenients somehow.

Removal of nutrients that aren't essential is feasible, but it remains a rudimentary solution. It's going to alleviate some people, but be unnecessary or detrimental for others. Think of what else may be lost with these restrictions that keep piling up, your beloved "vitamin" C is an example of a compound whose intake can decrease substantially from such measure.

Ironically, various of these compounds are good at protecting the liver (inflammation, infections, chubbification), from the fraction that gets there, but also the one that doesn't.

"Variation in the phenolic bioavailability ranges from 0.3% in the case of anthocyanins to 43% estimated for isoflavones [49]."​


Not much of a coincidence, someone posted this today:
- Citrus peel powder has a preventive effect on NAFLD, which can be related to the regulation of intestinal flora
I agree that we can't just eliminate everything. But eating the same diet that makes you feel good day in and day out is good because then the gut bacteria don't have to adapt to new foods all the time like it has to if you "eat the rainbow". I can't add in milk or beans without shocking my microbiome after a couple days so I just don't. Maybe I could work it in to my diet slowly but I just don't have a desire.
 

Korven

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May 4, 2019
Messages
613
Haha yeah I just saw that. Pretty funny. And seriously that's a nice looking arm.

Yeah agree he has got some big guns for being a 60 year old engineer on a 1500 calorie diet. Maybe you don't need as many calories to support muscle mass when inflammation is low?
 

sugarbabe

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Yeah agree he has got some big guns for being a 60 year old engineer on a 1500 calorie diet. Maybe you don't need as many calories to support muscle mass when inflammation is low?
Yeah that's what he said, low inflammation. But he did mention his physical activity is low so I'm wondering if that is even his arm!
 

sugarbabe

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Severe vitamin A toxicity in a 4 yr old from a plant based diet including meat, and he took a multivitamin with carotene and cod liver oil for over a yr.
The ER physicians observed severe cheilitis, dry skin, diffuse alopecia, and periorbital and pedal oedema.

Serological investigations revealed severe hypercalcemia, hyponatremia, hypokalemia, mildly elevated creatinine, elevated C-reactive protein, leukocytosis, and normocytic anaemia.

A Case of Severe Vitamin A Toxicity - MEDizzy Journal

F1.large_.jpg
 

redsun

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Severe vitamin A toxicity in a 4 yr old from a plant based diet including meat, and he took a multivitamin with carotene and cod liver oil for over a yr.
The ER physicians observed severe cheilitis, dry skin, diffuse alopecia, and periorbital and pedal oedema.

Serological investigations revealed severe hypercalcemia, hyponatremia, hypokalemia, mildly elevated creatinine, elevated C-reactive protein, leukocytosis, and normocytic anaemia.

A Case of Severe Vitamin A Toxicity - MEDizzy Journal

View attachment 31112
My god that poor kid.
 

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