Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Eberhardt]

Also: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07391102.2017.1411833

 

[tim333]

the protein quality, lack of iron, calcium to phosphate ratio, possibly lower in fat, more saturated fat proportion than meats

Decent points. There is one significant benefit to raw dairy though I must admit, it is very low in oxysterols. Perhaps that helps to explain why some dairy consuming groups are known for their longevity.

 

[tim333]

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4899-2626-5_59

Page unavailable.

 

[tim333]

Also: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07391102.2017.1411833

Please quote whatever you believe is evidence that there is SIGNIFICANT amounts of retinoic acid within casein.

 

[tim333]

Tim, you need some MILK! I just watched your most recent YouTube video and your balding has accelerated 100-fold during this low vitamin A quest. By the end of this thing, you might be the new Jason Statham, if you hit the gym more frequently.

I don't want whatever milk you or your guru are offering buddy, keep it between yourselves.

If you're talking about dairy yeah right ok like Koreans and Japanese have such high rates of hair loss due to a lack of milk in their diet. You're going to be disappointed tbh, my hair loss appears to have totally stopped since I began a diet that happens to go against all the silly rules of your guru.

 

[tim333]

I wanted to throw a couple comments in here from the last 30 pages or so. This comment above was interesting. I have noticed that since I went low vitamin A a few years ago, I have had a lot more hair loss then before that period. I attribute this to increased bone density and mass. My teeth also became much stronger and whiter over these years. I imagine my skull has also had mass added to it, and this could account for the hair loss. Although others will probably say lack of metabolism or something from low VA. I don't really care...the depression, chaos, and awful feeling I get from Vitamin A is a fine trade for some hair.

This would also explain some of Peat's issues. I think Vitamin A is bad for the teeth and the bones in general.

Also, on some of the comments about Grant. I interviewed him twice on the podcast and enjoyed talking with him both times. He seems very straightforward, but I will say some of his dates from his kidney disease and vitamin A diet don't exactly line up, and he actively is trying to take down vitamin A as a vitamin. Take that as you will, everyone has an agenda, even Peat, so be aware when you read them.

Personally I eat butter every day, probably 1/4 of a stick at least, and have no problem with it. I did the no vitamin A for like a year, loved the first 6-8 months and started to feel off from all the meat and rice in the last part. I still think this diet is one of the best experiments I ever did.

Vitamin A is the only vitamin that in excess is strongly associated with hairloss. There is no way that lowering vitamin A causes hairloss until you are venturing into deficiency. If you're following an extreme unbalanced diet of just rice, beans and meat that could definitely be a problem though.

By the way, you're quoting a defamatory troll post from half a year ago that has zero basis to it... I hadn't seen it so thanks, I guess...

 

[KurtisL]

Vitamin A supresses the immune system... As does PUFA... as do antioxidants like Vit. E & C... as does stress, EMF, fasting, etc..

We are converging on the true Ray Peat diet here, even if it means throwing out the Ray that got us here...

 

[Eberhardt]

Please quote whatever you believe is evidence that there is SIGNIFICANT amounts of retinoic acid within casein.

Dont know why the links stop workimg. I tried it yesterday and today it didnt work. Anyeays I have no idea what you would call significant. As you see from the abstract I posted casein also increases the availability of the retinol. Is this better? :Concentrations of retinol and tocopherols in the milk of cows supplemented with conjugated linoleic acid - PubMed

 

[Eberhardt]

Please quote whatever you believe is evidence that there is SIGNIFICANT amounts of retinoic acid within casein.

227IU per cup is significant if you are detoxing. A glass of milk in a healthy person is fine. A gallon is nothing but stupidiy Healthfully

 

[tim333]

@Eberhardt Neither abstract mentions anything about high levels of retinoic acid in casein. Almost all retinol is found in the fat component of dairy because IT'S FAT SOLUBLE. Skim milk has very low levels of retinol and retinoic acid. Almost all the vitamin A in a cup of whole milk is in the milk fat.

 

[Eberhardt]

@Eberhardt Neither abstract mentions anything about high levels of retinoic acid in casein. Almost all retinol is found in the fat component of dairy because IT'S FAT SOLUBLE. Skim milk has very low levels of retinol and retinoic acid. Almost all the vitamin A in a cup of whole milk is in the milk fat.

If you read the article it says clearly that low fat is worse. And most of the research is actually on retinol in scimmed milk if u google it. Also I have already given you numbers for average IU. I am not at all trou led if you dont agree with the whole anti A thing. I just state that its a fact that it is there in what would be significany amounts for a person detoxing. Also as you see if you read what I attached earlier it is not the fatcarried but the proteinbound retinol that is mentioned. Of course it is ALSO in the fat though. If proteinbinding ability papers, IU average levels, and increased availability documentation is not good enough I dont know how to verify it, especially since your statement opposes what I already posted. If you have issues with the research do tell what is amiss

 

[Tarmander]

Vitamin A is the only vitamin that in excess is strongly associated with hairloss. There is no way that lowering vitamin A causes hairloss until you are venturing into deficiency. If you're following an extreme unbalanced diet of just rice, beans and meat that could definitely be a problem though.

By the way, you're quoting a defamatory troll post from half a year ago that has zero basis to it... I hadn't seen it so thanks, I guess...

Oh was that directed at you?

It isn't the first place I have seen hair loss mentioned after getting on the low VA train. Hope your hair is doing well

Yes, I usually get 20-40% of my RDI.

yup me too. If I eat VA sources other then butter though, like salmon or asparagus, I start to get the chaos building inside

 

[tim333]

If you read the article it says clearly that low fat is worse. And most of the research is actually on retinol in scimmed milk if u google it. Also I have already given you numbers for average IU. I am not at all trou led if you dont agree with the whole anti A thing. I just state that its a fact that it is there in what would be significany amounts for a person detoxing. Also as you see if you read what I attached earlier it is not the fatcarried but the proteinbound retinol that is mentioned. Of course it is ALSO in the fat though. If proteinbinding ability papers, IU average levels, and increased availability documentation is not good enough I dont know how to verify it, especially since your statement opposes what I already posted. If you have issues with the research do tell what is amiss

You seem very confused. Vitamin A is a FAT SOLUBLE VITAMIN. This means very little of it is found in low fat dairy. A simple search of nutrition databases reveals this to be the case. As should be abundantly clear in this thread I'm not pro dairy, I advise against it but the whole "high levels of retinoic acid in casein" thing is delusional. You've posted two abstracts which I've read and have little to do with your claims, if you're so confident in the evidence you've found QUOTE THE EVIDENCE.

Milk, nonfat, fluid, without added vitamin A (fat free or skim)
1 cup
4.9 mcg Retinol Activity Equivalent

Milk, whole, 3.25% milkfat
1 cup
68.3 mcg Retinol Activity Equivalent

 

[tim333]

Oh was that directed at you?

It isn't the first place I have seen hair loss mentioned after getting on the low VA train. Hope your hair is doing well

Many people doing low VA are following counterproductive restrictive unbalanced diets so I don't doubt some experience negative consequences and that could include hair loss. Additionally when depleting vitamin A, retinoic acid levels often GO UP before they go down so that could possibly explain some hair loss. Additionally going into a vitamin A deficiency state could cause hair loss too. What absolutely will not cause hair loss is normalizing levels of vitamin A in the liver and balancing retinoic acid levels in the body.

My hairloss hasn't progressed at all since starting a low vitamin A diet 2.5 years ago.

 

[Eberhardt]

You seem very confused. Vitamin A is a FAT SOLUBLE VITAMIN. This means very little of it is found in low fat dairy. A simple search of nutrition databases reveals this to be the case. As should be abundantly clear in this thread I'm not pro dairy, I advise against it but the whole "high levels of retinoic acid in casein" thing is delusional. You've posted two abstracts which I've read and have little to do with your claims, if you're so confident in the evidence you've found QUOTE THE EVIDENCE.

Milk, nonfat, fluid, without added vitamin A (fat free or skim)
1 cup
4.9 mcg Retinol Activity Equivalent

Milk, whole, 3.25% milkfat
1 cup
68.3 mcg Retinol Activity Equivalent

I just sent you several articles showing how it binds to milk protein sorry i cant help you.

 

[Daniil]

You seem very confused. Vitamin A is a FAT SOLUBLE VITAMIN. This means very little of it is found in low fat dairy. A simple search of nutrition databases reveals this to be the case. As should be abundantly clear in this thread I'm not pro dairy, I advise against it but the whole "high levels of retinoic acid in casein" thing is delusional. You've posted two abstracts which I've read and have little to do with your claims, if you're so confident in the evidence you've found QUOTE THE EVIDENCE.

Milk, nonfat, fluid, without added vitamin A (fat free or skim)
1 cup
4.9 mcg Retinol Activity Equivalent

Milk, whole, 3.25% milkfat
1 cup
68.3 mcg Retinol Activity Equivalent

Fat-soluble substances can bind to proteins, VA is no exception. For example, estrogen also binds to casein.

As for the data from the databases. I'm afraid they don't take into account the part of VA that is binded to casein(only in fat). I do not know how much VA is contained in scimmed food, I myself would be interested to find out exact values. But the study presented by Eberhardt talks about "large quantities" (I can't open full version).
I occasionally eat scimmed cottage cheese.

 

[tim333]

@Eberhardt

You posted two abstracts, if you have the full articles quote the evidence here, this is a forum, why are you forcing us all to look it up ourselves if you are trying to prove a point?

I can't see anyone here debating whether or not retinoids can bind with milk proteins. In order for it to be a concern we need to see evidence that this can happen in any significant way (i.e. there are enough retinoids present that would make low fat dairy products a high vitamin A food) and that this occurs in a significant way for commercially available dairy products, not lab conditions.

@Daniil

Nobody here is saying that it can't happen...

HPLC is used for measuring both fat and water soluble vitamins, on what basis are you claiming that is cannot measure retinoids bound to casein? If it can't you still need to show that there are large amounts of retinoids present in casein and how that has been measured.

Quote the discussion about "large quantities" because it doesn't appear to be in either abstract.

 

[tim333]

the protein quality, lack of iron, calcium to phosphate ratio, possibly lower in fat, more saturated fat proportion than meats

Previous studies have shown that about 60–80% of estrogens come from milk and dairy products in western diets (75). Although the oral bioactivity of free 17β-estradiol and oestrone may be a bit low, but oestrogen sulphate as a main conjugate in milk, has a relatively high oral bioactivity (9). Recent epidemiological studies indicating a very strong relation between milk and dairy products high consumption and high incidence of testicular and prostate cancers (76).

Hormones in Dairy Foods and Their Impact on Public Health - A Narrative Review Article

The presence of hormones in milk and dairy foods was discussed decades ago but rather more concerns attended to that with respect to finding hormones as biomarkers in milk for diseases and pregnancy diagnosis. Moreover, considerable amount of studies ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

An additional problem with dairy that I didn't mention.

 

[Eberhardt]

You seem very confused. Vitamin A is a FAT SOLUBLE VITAMIN. This means very little of it is found in low fat dairy. A simple search of nutrition databases reveals this to be the case. As should be abundantly clear in this thread I'm not pro dairy, I advise against it but the whole "high

@Eberhardt

You posted two abstracts, if you have the full articles quote the evidence here, this is a forum, why are you forcing us all to look it up ourselves if you are trying to prove a point?

I can't see anyone here debating whether or not retinoids can bind with milk proteins. In order for it to be a concern we need to see evidence that this can happen in any significant way (i.e. there are enough retinoids present that would make low fat dairy products a high vitamin A food) and that this occurs in a significant way for commercially available dairy products, not lab conditions.

@Daniil

Nobody here is saying that it can't happen...

HPLC is used for measuring both fat and water soluble vitamins, on what basis are you claiming that is cannot measure retinoids bound to casein? If it can't you still need to show that there are large amounts of retinoids present in casein and how that has been measured.

Quote the discussion about "large quantities" because it doesn't appear to be in either abstract.

You simply asked for research that shows milk has A) retinol attached to its proteins. B)contains sufficient amounts to be of concern. I am not your daddy so I expect you to have enough agency to read the research posted. What is it to debate when posted research clearly states it.

Debating if retinol is needed, sure, but just google retinol in casein yourself, there is no scientific conflict about it, and you have not presented any arguments opposing the research, you just whine about having to make any effort. Sorry dude.

 

[Eberhardt]

Binding of vitamin A with milk α- and β-caseins

The binding sites of retinol and retinoic acid with milk α- and β-caseins were determined, using constant protein concentration and various retinoid c…

www.sciencedirect.com

1.5 retinol molecule per single casein molecule