Anti-Peat Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

Belsazar

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How do you understand the relationship between retinol and acne? There does not seem to be much clarity about it. People’s skin seems to respond in different ways (personally liver and butter breaks me out, tried synthetic vitamin a and it gave me a headache). No conclusive results on acne looking at Grant’s survey on low A diet results. I’ve thought about the fact that severe acne sufferers have low serum retinol and I think the reason is fat malabsorption which is why they’re low on vitamin e as well. It’s also possible that there are elevated needs or insufficient intake, but my feeling is it’s not getting absorbed.
I always thought the same (acne patients have lower serum retinol, but they also lower zinc and vitamin e leveles, increased oxidative and nitrosative stress markers). But since measuring my serum retinol (which is on the higher side) I have my doubts. But I do not know how my serum Vitamin A was the years before, my intake was high + supplements + countless retinoid treatments - maybe it built up over time. Since following a low Vitamin A diet, I have the feeling that i have less pustules and cysts, but still disturbed (hyper?)keratinization (flaky skin). Maybe we need to look at more retinol markers to get an idea why and how retinol metabolism works in acne. Ive read that retinol binding protein is usually lower in acne.

Grant writes that around puberty the liver has expanded/grown to its full size, therefore at this point the liver cant get away with retinol storage by tissue expansion. If high Vitamin A diet from eg milk or milk-chocolate or spicy food such as pepper or chilli (aka the Grant approach: compare with common acne trigger foods) - the liver gets saturated and starts to push it to the tissues eg sebaceous glands where they cause inflammation and disturbed keratinization. Grant says Isotretinoin treatment simply kills off the sebaceous glands. Ive always asked myself whats the real reason behind the "initial worsening period" in isotretinoin treatment. If you look at the history of isotretinoin then they say decrease of sebum production/acne was found accidentally as side effect for leukemia treatment by Roche in the early 80s. But it was known earlier (late 70s Effects of Oral Zinc and Vitamin A in Acne) that high dose Vitamin A treatment somehow decreases acne. For me the question is how did these guys actually feel on such high Vitamin A treatment and how did it effect them later on. (For me its a mystery how they did not develop toxicity - since there are cases of hypertoxicity caused by much lower doses. I doubt more detailed studies on Vitamin A and acne will follow (no financial interest).
Peat mentioned those isotretinoin studies and said that suddenly "natural vitamin A" was framed as toxic while isotretinoin was pushed by the pharma industry to sell it, but experienced a big throw back when it turned out its teratogenic. It made all sense to me, but I could never tolerate much of Vitamin A from supplements (but this was after Isotretinoin) still I felt its effect on my skin after longer use (but also side effects actually more than on isotretinoin). It is still a lot of confusion for me, Peat himself said he experienced massive headaches from supplemental Vitamin A and that finding proper dosage is difficult.
 

Belsazar

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Btw there was a guy on acne.org who wrote an ebook on isotretinoin. He was obsessed about how he found out the "mechanism of action" of isotretinoin. He collected some references that it shortens the "hayflick limit" of the epidermal cells and how it shortens our telomers. If anyone knows what I am talking about and still has the pdf let me know. It was on the big "recovering from isotretinoin (or similar)" thread, which is a big mess - but still had lots of useful discussions. I think certain people there recomended a low Vitamin A diet.
 

Belsazar

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Btw there was a guy on acne.org who wrote an ebook on isotretinoin. He was obsessed about how he found out the "mechanism of action" of isotretinoin. He collected some references that it shortens the "hayflick limit" of the epidermal cells and how it shortens our telomers. If anyone knows what I am talking about and still has the pdf let me know. It was on the big "recovering from isotretinoin (or similar)" thread, which is a big mess - but still had lots of useful discussions. I think certain people there recomended a low Vitamin A diet.

Update, found it again: Hoffmann-La Roche’s Cover-up of Accutane
 

md_a

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Atom Bergstrom :

VITAMIN A IS β-CAROTENE'S PARENT (by Up N At-OM)

Carotene is not the source of vitamin A.

Vitamin A is the source of carotene.

Patriarchal beaker boys didn't get the 1948 memo.

<>

According to "Vitamin A Originates in Young Plants, Vegetables," Science News Letter, Mar. 13, 1948) ...

"Young plants and vegetables are the original source of vitamin A. This finding, which upsets previous scientific teaching on the subject, was made by Prof. Edith A. Roberts and Miss Mildred D. Southwick of the Vassar College department of plant science, Poughkeepsie, N.Y.

"The electron microscope, modern scientific tool for studying things so small they cannot be seen even with high powered light microscopes, was used in the discovery.

"Heretofore, the livers of fish were considered the main source of vitamin A. Plants were believed to furnish only a chemical parent of the vitamin, called carotene. The vitamin itself was believed formed in the liver from plant foods.

"This belief is disproved by the Vassar scientists' discovery. Vitamin A, they showed, is first formed in the plant and there built into carotene and stored as such. So vitamin A is really the chemical parent of carotene, instead of carotene being the vitamin's parent chemical. Carotene can, however, be reconverted to vitamin A."

<>

People with metabolic disorders (cancer, diabetes, hypothyroidism, etc.) can't make the conversion of carotene to vitamin A with grace and ease, so it's their highest choice to eat as many baby vegetables as possible.

Don't confuse "baby veggies" with dwarf varieties.

<>

According to Wikipedia (last edited Dec. 27, 2020) ...

"Edith Adelaide Roberts (1881-1977) was an American botanist studying plant physiology and a pioneer in plant ecology. She created the first ecological laboratory in the United States, promoted natural landscaping along with Elsa Rehmann, and proved that plants were the main source of vitamin A."

<>
 

Quelsatron

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Some questions for the grant gang (trademark pending) I've had cross my mind:

1) what explains the dopamine rush and visual clarity I and others have experienced temporarily on high vitamin a intake, if A is a poison or even just something I've been overloaded with?
2) You all claim that milk is a huge retinol source, but is this actually true? I know vitamin A fortification is common in america, but the official nutrition database in my country lists 0.5% fat milk as 50 micrograms per liter, about the same as lean meat, and I'm very sure A fortification is rare here
3) since starting liver fall 2019 (along with a huge bunch of confounding factors), I've among other things experienced rosacea, cherry spots and telangiectasia, basically an overgrowth of capillaries. Is this a vitamin a poisoning symptom, and is it actually reversible? I'd love to have it go away, I feel disconcerted when looking at it and the rosacea is blotching up my face. If it went away it would be a good signal, i think, but maybe a thing like this doesn't revert even if it stops growing.
4) same with hair loss in the form of a retreating hairline

Edit: you know, it's funny. I have a rosaceic rhinophyma bulb on my nose that I got around winter of 2019. Looking through my photos, you have 10th of august, no bulb on my nose, 9th september, picture of my first home made liver paté, 12th october, bulb.
 
Last edited:

Pdohlen

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Looked up Mises and saw these quote:

"The Marxians love of democratic institutions was a stratagem only, a pious fraud for the deception of the masses. Within a socialist community there is no room left for freedom."

"A society that chooses between capitalism and socialism does not choose between two social systems; it chooses between social cooperation and the disintegration of society."

"Freedom is indivisible. As soon as one starts to restrict it, one enters upon a decline on which it is difficult to stop."

"The issue is always the same: the government or the market. There is no third solution."

"Every step which leads from capitalism toward planning is necessarily a step nearer to absolutism and dictatorship."

"Every type of socialism is unworkable because economic calculation is impossible in a socialist community."

"Every socialist is a disguised dictator."

"One must rather ask how much could be produced if competition among producers were abolished."

"The attempt to restrain prices within limits has to be given up. A government that sets out to abolish market prices is inevitably driven towards the abolition of private property."


Nice! Where has this been my whole life! I once was duped by Bernie Sanders type junk. I am so glad I woke up from that and saw the rapid decline into dictatoral control.
GS.jpg
 

schultz

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At the risk of coming across as lazy for not reading through the entire 380 page thread, but I've realized I most likely have a vitamin A toxicity, but not a long-standing one since I ate liver for the first time since fall a month or so ago, which resulted in euphoria and visual sharpness, but which gave way to depression, headaches and rashes after the first few hundred grams (the entire thing was 800 grams, and then followed by at least three large servings until today). I thought the rash was from something else, but connected it to liver after it reappeared yesterday.

Now, assuming this is the only variable for the euphoria/depression, could I expect to slide back into the golden zone by abstaining from vit a, while also consuming retinoid toxicity antidotes (thinking of zinc, vitamin c and vit D, are these good cofactors/antagonists)? And could this happen relatively quickly, within the span of a few months? Given that my last episode of liver consumption was only two seasons ago and yet I still managed to pass to the golden zone before going into retinotoxicity, it seems my metabolization of it is relatively quick, no?

my first week had 16 times larger intake than yours lol.

You ate 800g in a week? That seems like a lot. I eat about 4oz a week or so, sometimes missing a week here and there.
 

Quelsatron

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You ate 800g in a week? That seems like a lot. I eat about 4oz a week or so, sometimes missing a week here and there.
It probably is a lot, it's an entire package of liver and I dug up the patés i put in the freezer because i was feeling so good initially. It's probably my biggest ever intake in a week, usually the packages were only about 500 grams or less and I always ate it over several weeks, often going months between buying more.

Also, more funny anecdotes, I haven't been sick once since I started. Unfortunately, I've felt so shitty and depressed overall that I've been nostalgic for when I had tonsillitis four years ago. I was in horrible pain and couldn't talk or swallow and woke up so soaked in sweat every night i had to go towel off, I lost 8 kilos in a week but life still seemed more full of life than it does now.
 

Tarmander

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Some questions for the grant gang (trademark pending) I've had cross my mind:

1) what explains the dopamine rush and visual clarity I and others have experienced temporarily on high vitamin a intake, if A is a poison or even just something I've been overloaded with?
2) You all claim that milk is a huge retinol source, but is this actually true? I know vitamin A fortification is common in america, but the official nutrition database in my country lists 0.5% fat milk as 50 micrograms per liter, about the same as lean meat, and I'm very sure A fortification is rare here
3) since starting liver fall 2019 (along with a huge bunch of confounding factors), I've among other things experienced rosacea, cherry spots and telangiectasia, basically an overgrowth of capillaries. Is this a vitamin a poisoning symptom, and is it actually reversible? I'd love to have it go away, I feel disconcerted when looking at it and the rosacea is blotching up my face. If it went away it would be a good signal, i think, but maybe a thing like this doesn't revert even if it stops growing.
4) same with hair loss in the form of a retreating hairline

Edit: you know, it's funny. I have a rosaceic rhinophyma bulb on my nose that I got around winter of 2019. Looking through my photos, you have 10th of august, no bulb on my nose, 9th september, picture of my first home made liver paté, 12th october, bulb.
For 1, it is strange I have the exact opposite symptoms on VA. I get depressed and feel terrible for a day or two and then feel great like a big weight has been lifted from me.

3) I definitely got some more visible pores on my cheeks over the years of eating liver. At one point I tried to get rid of them by eating liver every day which did not work and seemed to make them more red. They haven't gone away since going low VA, but my serum level of VA is still pretty high.
 

sugarbabe

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People should learn not to give their power away and then the medical cartel scam wouldn't work. Having socialized health doesn't take away all the problems. Having to wait 6 months to a year for a surgery is ridiculous and people come to the US to buy their surgeries instead. You can pay for cheaper healthcare in Mexico as well. I definitely do not agree with the way medicine is practiced in the US and maybe it is the result of greed but there's also a lot of gov't involvement with Big Pharma that socialists don't want to admit.
 

Quelsatron

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very interesting update, I've been casually doing reduced A (no liver, no real carotenes, ate a few eggs a week ago, drank 2 litres of low fat milk a week ago, really it's mostly the liver avoidance doing work) and I just got a cold. I don't think I've had a cold since fall 2019 when I started eating liver. This is pretty exciting lol

Also, I had low vitamin D in january, which was confusing because I tried to tan in the summer, but apparently vitamin A can reduce your circulating vitamin D levels.
 

Blossom

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I found a vitamin A free multi for anyone interested in something like this. Forgive me if it’s been mentioned already. The main downside is it’s fairly high in iron at 14 mg.
 
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From reading parts of two of his free ebooks over the last couple days I don't agree with him on everything but he makes some compelling arguments about vitamin A. I don't think everyone needs to be concerned but I'm open to exploring further the *possibility* that some people with certain health problems that have also been taking vitamin A supplements and using vitamin A derived pharmaceutical drugs (both at the same time for years) might be suffering from a toxicity.

I did a multivitamin and retin-a daily for over 20 years (sadly repeated this again in 2017) and have autoimmune diseases so his theory interests me personally. I've had a fairly high intake of vitamin A since discovering Peat. Last weeks Cronometer snapshot showed I averaged 400% DV not counting my weekly dose of simply A. I think I could benefit or minimally do no harm to myself by going low for a three week trial. I'm wary of the consequences of people in general becoming overly concerned though.

I truly hope he is wrong. He makes a good case though and is providing the information for free. Free doesn't make it correct but it gives him more credibility in my mind. He isn't part of the medical field either where he would have been indoctrinated into certain ideas so there's that too. No offense to anyone because I work in the field myself. I do think we all should be mindful of our choices with all the confusion in the world. Not to be cliche but Perceive, Think, Act and always keep your personal context in mind.

I'd love to hear Ray's thoughts and also get input from @Ella.
how are you? I haven't had the pleasure of talking to you for many years.
I did not forget the help you gave me in the debate, many years ago, about prostate cancer [my health problem]; I am currently battling chronic pancreatitis;
the purpose of this post is to ask if youm Blossom, have come to any conclusions about vitamin A from a Genereux perspective? Is there a possibility that vitamin A works as a toxic? Within what limits would this occur? Thank you in advance.
 

Blossom

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how are you? I haven't had the pleasure of talking to you for many years.
I did not forget the help you gave me in the debate, many years ago, about prostate cancer [my health problem]; I am currently battling chronic pancreatitis;
the purpose of this post is to ask if youm Blossom, have come to any conclusions about vitamin A from a Genereux perspective? Is there a possibility that vitamin A works as a toxic? Within what limits would this occur? Thank you in advance.
I’m sorry to hear it Gilson! Hang in there and I hope you overcome this challenge. I’ll be praying.
I’m still considering everything regarding VA. It was helpful for me to go on a low A diet but I had over supplemented it for many years while also eating liver regularly and using retin-a. With the covid situation I started eating eggs and cheese again early last year due to my hectic work schedule and I seem fine. It’s hard to judge if I’ve had any issues from that or if it was just a crazy stressful year. :/
I’ll probably get labs soon. I feel good though and I normally get 20-40% of the recommended DV per cronometer.
 
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I’m sorry to hear it Gilson! Hang in there and I hope you overcome this challenge. I’ll be praying.
I’m still considering everything regarding VA. It was helpful for me to go on a low A diet but I had over supplemented it for many years while also eating liver regularly and using retin-a. With the covid situation I started eating eggs and cheese again early last year due to my hectic work schedule and I seem fine. It’s hard to judge if I’ve had any issues from that or if it was just a crazy stressful year. :/
I’ll probably get labs soon. I feel good though and I normally get 20-40% of the recommended DV per cronometer.
Thank you Blossom! I love you!
 

md_a

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Control of oxidative phosphorylation by vitamin A illuminates a fundamental role in mitochondrial energy homoeostasis​


Abstract​

The physiology of two metabolites of vitamin A is understood in substantial detail: retinaldehyde functions as the universal chromophore in the vertebrate and invertebrate eye; retinoic acid regulates a set of vertebrate transcription factors, the retinoic acid receptor superfamily. The third member of this retinoid triumvirate is retinol. While functioning as the precursor of retinaldehyde and retinoic acid, a growing body of evidence suggests a far more fundamental role for retinol in signal transduction. Here we show that retinol is essential for the metabolic fitness of mitochondria. When cells were deprived of retinol, respiration and ATP synthesis defaulted to basal levels. They recovered to significantly higher energy output as soon as retinol was restored to physiological concentration, without the need for metabolic conversion to other retinoids. Retinol emerged as an essential cofactor of protein kinase Cδ (PKCδ), without which this enzyme failed to be activated in mitochondria. Furthermore, retinol needed to physically bind PKCδ, because mutation of the retinol binding site rendered PKCδ unresponsive to Rol, while retaining responsiveness to phorbol ester. The PKCδ/retinol complex signaled the pyruvate dehydrogenase complex for enhanced flux of pyruvate into the Krebs cycle. The baseline response was reduced in vitamin A-deficient lecithin:retinol acyl transferase-knockout mice, but this was corrected within 3 h by intraperitoneal injection of vitamin A; this suggests that vitamin A is physiologically important. These results illuminate a hitherto unsuspected role of vitamin A in mitochondrial bioenergetics of mammals, acting as a nutritional sensor. As such, retinol is of fundamental importance for energy homeostasis. The data provide a mechanistic explanation to the nearly 100-yr-old question of why vitamin A deficiency causes so many pathologies that are independent of retinoic acid action.—Acin-Perez, T., Hoyos, B., Zhao, F., Vinogradov, V., Fischman, D. A., Harris, R. A., Leitges, M., Wongsiriroj, N., Blaner, W. S., Manfredi, G., Hammerling, U. Control of oxidative phosphorylation by vitamin A illuminates a fundamental role in mitochondrial energy homoeostasis.

CONCLUSIONS​

Vitamin A and retinoic acid are frequently used as synonyms, although they are chemically different and have distinct physiological functions. We provide compelling evidence that vitamin A itself functions as a vital component in a novel mitochondrial signal pathway regulating oxidative phosphorylation. During the heyday of nutritional vitamin research, it did not go unnoticed that many pathophysiological manifestations of vitamin A deficiency in animals and humans could not be corrected with retinoic acid but required vitamin A to restore health. Although several organs were affected (42), no organelle or molecular targets were recognized until researchers who explored the potential of retinoids for apoptosis induction focused on the mitochondrion. Most often the proapoptotic or necrotic outcomes were linked to the extended production of damaging levels of reactive oxygen species (9, 13, 43). Although the clinical potential of synthetic retinoids for cancer therapy was recognized, receptor sites interacting with these synthetic retinoids remained obscure. Conceivably, these are the same as those identified for PKC and cRaf (6), which bind natural retinoids for growth regulation (25, 41, 44). But owing to differences in chemical structure, synthetic retinoids, such as the prototypic fenretinide (45), as well as the natural retinol antagonist, anhydroretinol (10), may be defective in the ability to coactivate PKCδ (7) and hence may interfere with catabolic or, more important, anabolic intermediary metabolism.

Bioenergetics is fundamental to all cells (46). In view of this tenet, it is puzzling why metabolic regulation by the pathway described in this report depends on retinol that vertebrates cannot synthesize de novo. In limiting vitamin A to nutritional sources, there must be an evolutionary advantage of such import as to override the physiological needs for vitamin A in vision and retinoic acid-dependent transcription. The answer may lie in the scenario that finite amounts of vitamin A are subject to depletion during periods of severe starvation when an organism is forced to conserve energy. Our observation that in the absence of vitamin A energy generation by respiration adapts downwards appears relevant in this context. Accumulation of triglycerides in the livers of vitamin A-deficient mice (47) may also signify a metabolic switch to fat for energy generation to offset limited utilization of pyruvate from glycolytic sources. It is also predictable that chronic deviations of vitamin A transport will lead to metabolic disease. Recent observations that the circulating levels of retinol binding protein 4, the major transporter of vitamin A in plasma, are elevated in obesity illuminate this point (48).

 

tim333

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Feb 27, 2020
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Some questions for the grant gang (trademark pending) I've had cross my mind:

1) what explains the dopamine rush and visual clarity I and others have experienced temporarily on high vitamin a intake, if A is a poison or even just something I've been overloaded with?
2) You all claim that milk is a huge retinol source, but is this actually true? I know vitamin A fortification is common in america, but the official nutrition database in my country lists 0.5% fat milk as 50 micrograms per liter, about the same as lean meat, and I'm very sure A fortification is rare here
3) since starting liver fall 2019 (along with a huge bunch of confounding factors), I've among other things experienced rosacea, cherry spots and telangiectasia, basically an overgrowth of capillaries. Is this a vitamin a poisoning symptom, and is it actually reversible? I'd love to have it go away, I feel disconcerted when looking at it and the rosacea is blotching up my face. If it went away it would be a good signal, i think, but maybe a thing like this doesn't revert even if it stops growing.
4) same with hair loss in the form of a retreating hairline

Edit: you know, it's funny. I have a rosaceic rhinophyma bulb on my nose that I got around winter of 2019. Looking through my photos, you have 10th of august, no bulb on my nose, 9th september, picture of my first home made liver paté, 12th october, bulb.

Low fat dairy is low in vitamin A, I haven't seen any evidence for the idea that casein contains a lot of retinoic acid either. I don't consume dairy because I don't see it as a healthy food period but on a low vit A diet there shouldn't be a problem with non fortified low fat dairy.

I've had similar capillary type problems in the past and I think they are likely caused by Hypervitaminosis A. A telangiectasia on my face which I've had for years has markedly reduced since going on the low vit A diet.
 

Quelsatron

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Low fat dairy is low in vitamin A, I haven't seen any evidence for the idea that casein contains a lot of retinoic acid either. I don't consume dairy because I don't see it as a healthy food period but on a low vit A diet there shouldn't be a problem with non fortified low fat dairy.

I've had similar capillary type problems in the past and I think they are likely caused by Hypervitaminosis A. A telangiectasia on my face which I've had for years has markedly reduced since going on the low vit A diet.
Yeah, casein can apparently bind retinoic acid but there's no real proof that it naturally contains it. Same with pork, I've seen studies where pork has similar retinoic acid content of beef, so I now eat it because of the B vitamins + cheapness

it's good to know you had similar problems, and that they went away
 
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