Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

Vinero

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I think this is where the insights we've learned about vitamin A in the past 2 years are important. Ray was saying those things before, and it was in textbooks in the 30s-40s but I don't think it was emphasized anough.

When people are experiencing those symptoms of acute low-metabolism, I don't think eating a lot of vitamin A is advisable. One meal of liver may have great benefits, because it comes with so many other beneficial compounds to metabolize the vitamin A, but it should be very occasional.

I've gone through the whole experience and it really seems like real pro-vitamin A needs increase in lockstep with metabolism. Small daily amounts of vitamin A, from good grass-fed butter, cream etc. are good but liver is really a food which is more beneficial when metabolism is rev'ed up and the stores of vitamin A are quickly metabolized into the steroid hormones.

Based on my current understanding, children and teenagers probably can benefit immensely from regular liver consumption. Any presence of persistent acne in teenagers is a good indication of the need for liver. Sunshine is also very important. I think optimizing those things in development is one of the most important things a parent can do for their children, because it sets them up for much greater metabolic health moving forward.

If you're cold all the time, and hypothyroid, the vitamin A just accumulates I think, and considering its role in cell division and skin shedding, it's no wonder the dry skin, eyes etc. and the other symptoms you mention are common. Anecdotally, I experienced dry eyes for a full year after eating a lot of liver while severely hypothyroid.



I think a careful approach of using vitamin E, C is better than focusing on depleting vitamin A. Vitamins E and C are the body's fat-soluble and water-soluble antioxidants and in the literature they're shown to be able to prevent the oxidation of vitamin A. My understanding is that taking extra thyroid for a time can help ''empty'' the stores of vitamin A. But in general, a simple active lifestyle with plenty of sun exposure in the summer will do the same. The vitamin A requirements seem to increase as vitamin D levels go up, and with light exposure in general.


So it's clearly an interaction of several elements, and context is very important as usual.
But what about people who have been avoiding all foods containing vitamin A and carotenoids for a long time? Do you think eating some liver is dangerous in this case? What about butter or milk? Korven found some people on Grants forum that complain about detox symptoms such as dry skin, dry eyes, depression, anxiety, low libido, low body temperature etc. But they have avoided vitamin A and carotenoids for 1 to 2 years. These detox symptoms are the same symptoms as hypothyroidism/slow metabolism. Some of these people are thinking about quitting the low vitamin A diet.

These ones stood out to me because I have had dry, red skin on my face the last few months:

" my face seemed more red, like low carbers...."

"My skin is do dry and inflammed it is crazy. I’ve never experienced this before. My cheeks are very red, and same with the skin on the sides of the eyes, and the forehead. It itches like a *****. A antifungal cream I tried alleviated things some, but not any longer. Unless anybody can give me a reason for why this is happening, I’m getting seriously concerned here. Is retinoic acid stored in the skin only getting released when going low VA or something? Does anybody have a scientific argument as to why this can be a good thing, and a symptom of healing? If not I seriously have to consider that something is very wrong here. My skin is basically totally ****88 here"


leap7's log - Page 15 - Discussion | Ideas, Concepts, and Observations (ggenereux.blog)
Joel's Log - Page 3 - Discussion | Ideas, Concepts, and Observations (ggenereux.blog)
Arena Progress Report - Page 4 - Discussion | Ideas, Concepts, and Observations (ggenereux.blog)
 
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RealNeat

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Love some answers on this. Thx
 

LLight

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I remember my health began to decline when I started "strictly peating" eating lots of cheap low fat cheese, and drinking lots of orange juice. But the cheap low fat cheeses that I was relying on as my main source of protein had added beta carotene or annatto as coloring agents. So I was getting a lot of carotenoids without being aware of it. The health problems that I developed when I was peating could have been the result of high carotenoid intake. Not because I had too much retinol. There is a study on how supplemental beta carotene increases risk of lung cancer. I was having severe lung problems during peating (asthma and frequent lung infections)

So this is either carotene or high fluid intake.

When you went low vitA, you also limited your calcium intake quite drastically right? Could high calcium intake also be a problem in your case? Well, you drank milk before so that may not be related.
 

md_a

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On EastWest Healing fb page :

"Could Hypothyroidism just be a Vitamin A (retinol) deficiency?

Here us out…

Transthyretin (TTR), is a transport protein that binds both thyroid hormone (T4) and retinol (vitamin A). The major site of serum TTR is in the liver (and CNS- choroid plexus), the site where most thyroid hormone is converted from T4 to usable T3. Essentially, TTR’s single most known function is to transport retinol from hepatic (liver) stores to target tissues.

When the metabolism is not receiving the support through proper nutrition and lifestyle, TTR gets loaded up with T4 and NO retinol, which triggers oxidative stress and results in the uptick of cholesterol production….which is only responding to increased oxidative stress because T4 is now NOT converting to T3, which disrupts the T3 signal to the liver to make more bio-available copper (Mittag et al, 2012). Keep in mind T3 is an oxygen sensor, and bioavailable copper must be present to access oxygen.

What depletes retinol: Vit. D supps, retinal palmitate, SAD diet, alcohol, not eating enough of or the right proteins etc.

Retinol and it’s many retinoid derivates, have thousands of functions in the body. Ensuring optimal loading of bio-available copper is just one of them. Providing nutrients to STOP inflammation is another.

When we provide the body with more nutrient dense animal proteins loaded with Vitamin A and Copper, thyroid medication may not be needed because now the TTR protein can be loaded with T4 and retinol, which will assist in not only supporting thyroid hormone conversion BUT signaling the liver to make more bio-availbe copper.

As a result, there will be a reduction of inflammation, oxygen will be better activated and used in the cell (mitochondria), energy production is OPTIMAL and oxidative stress – ie. inflammation and cell death is MINIMAL.

Some interesting food for thought based on physiology, not just ideas."

Or, the toxicity of vitamin A occurs on hypothyroidism.
 

mrchibbs

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But what about people who have been avoiding all foods containing vitamin A and carotenoids for a long time? Do you think eating some liver is dangerous in this case? What about butter or milk? Korven found some people on Grants forum that complain about detox symptoms such as dry skin, dry eyes, depression, anxiety, low libido, low body temperature etc. But they have avoided vitamin A and carotenoids for 1 to 2 years. These detox symptoms are the same symptoms as hypothyroidism/slow metabolism. Some of these people are thinking about quitting the low vitamin A diet.

These ones stood out to me because I have had dry, red skin on my face the last few months:

" my face seemed more red, like low carbers...."

"My skin is do dry and inflammed it is crazy. I’ve never experienced this before. My cheeks are very red, and same with the skin on the sides of the eyes, and the forehead. It itches like a *****. A antifungal cream I tried alleviated things some, but not any longer. Unless anybody can give me a reason for why this is happening, I’m getting seriously concerned here. Is retinoic acid stored in the skin only getting released when going low VA or something? Does anybody have a scientific argument as to why this can be a good thing, and a symptom of healing? If not I seriously have to consider that something is very wrong here. My skin is basically totally ****88 here"


leap7's log - Page 15 - Discussion | Ideas, Concepts, and Observations (ggenereux.blog)
Joel's Log - Page 3 - Discussion | Ideas, Concepts, and Observations (ggenereux.blog)
Arena Progress Report - Page 4 - Discussion | Ideas, Concepts, and Observations (ggenereux.blog)

Maybe start with a just a meal of liver? But make sure you get good liver. And don't overcook it, it should still be pink in the middle.

Do you crave or feel like eating liver right now? Cravings can indicate if you need it I think. I would try a meal and see how it makes you feel, and write down your symptoms and if your skin feels better.

I think what the literature says is that vitamin A works with thyroid hormone, and there is an optimal point beyond which its counterproductive. So I would try some liver and see how you feel.

I talked about these things here: Vitamin A and Thyroid: Selected quotes from The Thyroid (1951) by McGavack & Winfield
 

Belsazar

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What about a Vitamin A toxicity Case study thread?

Liver toxicity from vitamin A (doi:10.1002/jgh3.12201)​

She was taking a combined oral contraceptive, vitamin C, and vitamin A. Historically, she had taken two 5‐month courses of isotretinoin 20 mg daily from August 2013 to January 2014 and again from June to November 2014.
To be fair oral contraceptives were probably not very helpful for the liver ...
Whilst helpful for her acne, there were significant side effects, including dry skin and eyes and oral and anorectal fissuring, so later, the patient began self‐treatment with vitamin A purchased online. Each capsule contained retinyl palmitate of 10 000 IU (or 3 mg retinol), and the bottle was labeled “Dietary Supplement.” The recommended daily intake for women is 500 μg/day of retinol.1 This supplement was taken daily for a total period of about 18 months from January 2015.
On examination, there was mild palmar erythema and several small spider naevi on the anterior chest. The abdomen was distended and slightly firm, and there was percussion tenderness over the lower right ribs. There was no palpable organomegaly or peripheral edema.
Anyone here had/has those spider naevi?
 

Amazoniac

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- Structural and mechanistic aspects of carotenoid cleavage dioxygenases (CCDs)

- The human mitochondrial enzyme BCO2 exhibits catalytic activity toward carotenoids and apocarotenoids
- The Structural and Biochemical Basis of Apocarotenoid Processing by β-Carotene Oxygenase-2
- β-carotene oxygenase 2 deficiency-triggered mitochondrial oxidative stress promotes low-grade inflammation and metabolic dysfunction

- Ionone Is More than a Violet's Fragrance: A Review

- Carotenoid metabolism in mitochondrial function
- Carotenoid metabolism at the intestinal barrier

- LRAT coordinates the negative-feedback regulation of intestinal retinoid biosynthesis from β-carotene

- Dietary wolfberry upregulates carotenoid metabolic genes and enhances mitochondrial biogenesis in the retina of db/db diabetic mice

- A Minute Dose of 14C-β-Carotene Is Absorbed and Converted to Retinoids in Humans
- Production of asymmetric oxidative metabolites of [13C]-β-carotene during digestion in the gastrointestinal lumen of healthy men

- β-Carotene oxygenase 1 activity modulates circulating cholesterol concentrations in mice and humans

- Palmitoylation of metazoan carotenoid oxygenases
- Xanthophylls Modulate Palmitoylation of Mammalian β-Carotene Oxygenase 2

- Retinol-binding protein 2 (RBP2): biology and pathobiology
- Retinol-binding protein 2 (RBP2) binds monoacylglycerols and modulates gut endocrine signaling and body weight
- Molecular basis for the interaction of cellular retinol-binding protein 2 (CRBP2) with non-retinoid ligands

- Inflammation and Vitamin A

- The Origins of Salivary Vitamin A, Vitamin B12 and Vitamin D-Binding Proteins


@Amazoniac Figure 6.5 is a nice chart but is misleading because the normal range varies by age. People in their twenties have a lower normal serum retinol level than that.
This was a good point.
 

Amazoniac

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- Inhibitory effects of flavonoids on molybdenum hydroxylases activity

Abstract said:
Molybdenum hydroxylases, aldehyde oxidase and xanthine oxidase, are metalloflavoproteins that catalyze both oxidation and reduction of a broad range of drugs and other xenobiotics indicating the importance of these enzymes in drug oxidation, detoxification and activation. Both enzymes are also involved in some physiological processes and also the metabolism of some endogenous compounds which may indicate their important roles in in vivo conditions. Superoxide radical and hydrogen peroxide produced during molybdenum hydroxylases-catalyzed reactions may be relevant in various disease conditions. Therefore, the interference with the function of molybdenum hydroxylases could be of great importance. Flavonoids are a large group of polyphenolic compounds that are able to interfere with xanthine oxidase and aldehyde oxidase function. As flavonoids are consumed in high content in our daily life, their potential to interfere with molybdenum hydroxylases could be a serious concern for consumer safety. However, the subject has not received enough attention and has usually been overshadowed by that of cytochrome P450 as the most important drug metabolizing enzyme system. The present review focuses on the different aspects of flavonoids interaction with molybdenum hydroxylases considering literature published mainly in the last 2 decades. The review also provides insight into some research areas that may offer a great potential for future studies.
 

Mr Joe

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Update 2021. New article 2 weeks ago.


Quote : "This review summarises the current evidence from animal, human and cell-culture studies on the effects of vitamin A towards bone health. Animal studies showed that the negative effects of retinol on the skeleton were observed at higher concentrations, especially on the cortical bone. In humans, the direct relationship between vitamin A and poor bone health was more pronounced in individuals with obesity or vitamin D deficiency."

Once again hypothyroidism and vitamin D deficiency has been confirmed, as lots of people claimed here.
 

Quelsatron

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At the risk of coming across as lazy for not reading through the entire 380 page thread, but I've realized I most likely have a vitamin A toxicity, but not a long-standing one since I ate liver for the first time since fall a month or so ago, which resulted in euphoria and visual sharpness, but which gave way to depression, headaches and rashes after the first few hundred grams (the entire thing was 800 grams, and then followed by at least three large servings until today). I thought the rash was from something else, but connected it to liver after it reappeared yesterday.

Now, assuming this is the only variable for the euphoria/depression, could I expect to slide back into the golden zone by abstaining from vit a, while also consuming retinoid toxicity antidotes (thinking of zinc, vitamin c and vit D, are these good cofactors/antagonists)? And could this happen relatively quickly, within the span of a few months? Given that my last episode of liver consumption was only two seasons ago and yet I still managed to pass to the golden zone before going into retinotoxicity, it seems my metabolization of it is relatively quick, no?
 

Belsazar

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At the risk of coming across as lazy for not reading through the entire 380 page thread, but I've realized I most likely have a vitamin A toxicity, but not a long-standing one since I ate liver for the first time since fall a month or so ago, which resulted in euphoria and visual sharpness, but which gave way to depression, headaches and rashes after the first few hundred grams (the entire thing was 800 grams, and then followed by at least three large servings until today). I thought the rash was from something else, but connected it to liver after it reappeared yesterday.

Now, assuming this is the only variable for the euphoria/depression, could I expect to slide back into the golden zone by abstaining from vit a, while also consuming retinoid toxicity antidotes (thinking of zinc, vitamin c and vit D, are these good cofactors/antagonists)? And could this happen relatively quickly, within the span of a few months? Given that my last episode of liver consumption was only two seasons ago and yet I still managed to pass to the golden zone before going into retinotoxicity, it seems my metabolization of it is relatively quick, no?
Things are a bit tricky. Maybe you could test your serum Vitamin A (maybe Retinol binding protein) as marker on your current diet to get an idea where you are standing, (optional because hypothetical: then switch to a low Vitamin A diet and retest after a few weeks - if levels are increasing the liver might have full Vitamin A stores and release it into the bloodstream (or would a liver with normal tissue levels behave in the same way?)). The problem is that serum Vitamin A as a marker can be tricky. There is a reported case of Vitamin A toxicity often discussed here which had lowish serum levels but biopsy showed toxic tissue levels, so be careful with interpretation.

If you have full stores, then it might be a burden to the liver - which could slow down Vitamin A metabolism even further or you have an unhealthy liver in the first place impairing retinoid metablism (chicken egg problem). Nevertheless, some people here still have high serum Vitamin A after several months of low Vitamin A diet, but normally it should drop to normal levels if its restricted from diet. The problem on Vitamin A overload lies in its lipophilicity and its reabsorption/recycling in the entero-hepatic cycle (charcoal anyone? ;)), - shortly once accumulated it's not so easy to get rid of it.
 

Quelsatron

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Things are a bit tricky. Maybe you could test your serum Vitamin A (maybe Retinol binding protein) as marker on your current diet to get an idea where you are standing, (optional because hypothetical: then switch to a low Vitamin A diet and retest after a few weeks - if levels are increasing the liver might have full Vitamin A stores and release it into the bloodstream (or would a liver with normal tissue levels behave in the same way?)). The problem is that serum Vitamin A as a marker can be tricky. There is a reported case of Vitamin A toxicity often discussed here which had lowish serum levels but biopsy showed toxic tissue levels, so be careful with interpretation.

If you have full stores, then it might be a burden to the liver - which could slow down Vitamin A metabolism even further or you have an unhealthy liver in the first place impairing retinoid metablism (chicken egg problem). Nevertheless, some people here still have high serum Vitamin A after several months of low Vitamin A diet, but normally it should drop to normal levels if its restricted from diet. The problem on Vitamin A overload lies in its lipophilicity and its reabsorption/recycling in the entero-hepatic cycle (charcoal anyone? ;)), - shortly once accumulated it's not so easy to get rid of it.
I'm not enthusiastic about getting tested, both because it's a bother and because I don't have a good grasp at theory. I've arrived at the point where I just want to keep things simple, and surely no liver=bad, some liver=good, more liver=bad is as straightforward as it gets? And do you know if vit C or zinc have positive impacts on vitamin A toxicity? It seems like that to me, but since the thread is so large and established it feels like it should be common knowledge in here if it was. And, to keep a positive mindset, since I ate probably at least as much liver during the fall as I've done now, it probably metabolizes quickly in my case, no? Starting to eat liver again has often boosted my libido heavily temporarily, so it feels like it resets fairly quickly, on a timescale of months. And my liver had good test results two months ago, with standard liver enzymes, so I don't think that's an issue.
 

Belsazar

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I'm not enthusiastic about getting tested, both because it's a bother and because I don't have a good grasp at theory. I've arrived at the point where I just want to keep things simple, and surely no liver=bad, some liver=good, more liver=bad is as straightforward as it gets? And do you know if vit C or zinc have positive impacts on vitamin A toxicity? It seems like that to me, but since the thread is so large and established it feels like it should be common knowledge in here if it was. And, to keep a positive mindset, since I ate probably at least as much liver during the fall as I've done now, it probably metabolizes quickly in my case, no? Starting to eat liver again has often boosted my libido heavily temporarily, so it feels like it resets fairly quickly, on a timescale of months. And my liver had good test results two months ago, with standard liver enzymes, so I don't think that's an issue.
I think ignoring this thread despite being aware of retinoid toxicity was a big mistake from my side.

I dont know much about Vitamin C in this context. But Zinc increases RBP expression/levels. And it is a co-factor for ADH (alcohol dehydrogenase, metaloenzyme) and retinol is an alcohol after all. Together with Cytochrome p450 it handles excess. If curious you can look up retinol dehydrogenase and retinaldehyde dehydrogenase including its co-factors and what increases their expression, but those increase its downstream metabolite retinoic acids, which might be easier to excrete, but which have other side effects. - So short, for me it is not sure if increasing Vitamin A metabolism is really the safest way detox. Uncontrolled oxidation of free Vitamin A (unsaturated molecule) is something Peat has warned about (Vitamin E). Therefore, an easy to implement step would be to keep protein intake high to help with keeping levels of binding proteins high (RPB but also albumin and so on). Peat describes it as anti-thyroid since they share similar transport proteins (see TBPA-RBP complex or Thyroxin binding prealbumin (TBPA) and retinol binding protein (RBP)).
 
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At the risk of coming across as lazy for not reading through the entire 380 page thread, but I've realized I most likely have a vitamin A toxicity, but not a long-standing one since I ate liver for the first time since fall a month or so ago, which resulted in euphoria and visual sharpness, but which gave way to depression, headaches and rashes after the first few hundred grams (the entire thing was 800 grams, and then followed by at least three large servings until today). I thought the rash was from something else, but connected it to liver after it reappeared yesterday.

Now, assuming this is the only variable for the euphoria/depression, could I expect to slide back into the golden zone by abstaining from vit a, while also consuming retinoid toxicity antidotes (thinking of zinc, vitamin c and vit D, are these good cofactors/antagonists)? And could this happen relatively quickly, within the span of a few months? Given that my last episode of liver consumption was only two seasons ago and yet I still managed to pass to the golden zone before going into retinotoxicity, it seems my metabolization of it is relatively quick, no?
This happened to me too. I had liver for the first time in my life just last week. Been vegetarian all my life. I've also had very dry skin (scaly, skin won't shed fully). Even since peating about 2 months ago, my skin dryness had gone down but not entirely. Within hours of consuming about 50-60 g of liver, the dry flakes vanished (had had them for decades). I felt very warm, very calm, euphoria and clear vision like you described. But 2 days later, very dry itchy eyes. Clear vision lasted 2 days, it deteriorated but still better than before. Skin is still better. So the conclusion i drew from all this was that i had been deficient in vitamin a and that my body used it up very quickly in making anti stress hormones (progesterone, thyroid) and repairing and so i must eat it again next week maybe. Why do you say the dry eyes and rashes, that followed, are a vitamin a toxicity symptoms?
 

Quelsatron

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This happened to me too. I had liver for the first time in my life just last week. Been vegetarian all my life. I've also had very dry skin (scaly, skin won't shed fully). Even since peating about 2 months ago, my skin dryness had gone down but not entirely. Within hours of consuming about 50-60 g of liver, the dry flakes vanished (had had them for decades). I felt very warm, very calm, euphoria and clear vision like you described. But 2 days later, very dry itchy eyes. Clear vision lasted 2 days, it deteriorated but still better than before. Skin is still better. So the conclusion i drew from all this was that i had been deficient in vitamin a and that my body used it up very quickly in making anti stress hormones (progesterone, thyroid) and repairing and so i must eat it again next week maybe. Why do you say the dry eyes and rashes, that followed, are a vitamin a toxicity symptoms?
I didn't have dry eyes (although there was a few days of it somewhere between january and now, for some reason) but I would guess that the rash is from vitamin A given that it's the most special feature of liver, and vit a can produce rashes and headaches and euphoria and laser vision. If you eat more liver, I would make sure to only do so as long as you feel better from the immediate dose, or at least as long as you don't dip back down into a pre-liver state of overall wellbeing. And your intake was probably much more reasonable than mine, my first week had 16 times larger intake than yours lol.
I think ignoring this thread despite being aware of retinoid toxicity was a big mistake from my side.

I dont know much about Vitamin C in this context. But Zinc increases RBP expression/levels. And it is a co-factor for ADH (alcohol dehydrogenase, metaloenzyme) and retinol is an alcohol after all. Together with Cytochrome p450 it handles excess. If curious you can look up retinol dehydrogenase and retinaldehyde dehydrogenase including its co-factors and what increases their expression, but those increase its downstream metabolite retinoic acids, which might be easier to excrete, but which have other side effects. - So short, for me it is not sure if increasing Vitamin A metabolism is really the safest way detox. Uncontrolled oxidation of free Vitamin A (unsaturated molecule) is something Peat has warned about (Vitamin E). Therefore, an easy to implement step would be to keep protein intake high to help with keeping levels of binding proteins high (RPB but also albumin and so on). Peat describes it as anti-thyroid since they share similar transport proteins (see TBPA-RBP complex or Thyroxin binding prealbumin (TBPA) and retinol binding protein (RBP)).
Thanks for the information. I never have a problem with protein intake, so that should be good. I'll try and maintain a decent zinc intake anyway, it's probably pretty safe.
 

qwazy

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Has anyone here actually confirmed that it is the vitamin a that gives them trouble by just taking a vitamin a supplement?
 

GorillaHead

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So still suffering from dandruff. Ive tried so many things its making me lose my sanity. Yesterday i figured i would give 900mcg of retinol a try. With 1 gram of vitamin C. 3000iu of vitamin D and 8mg of zinc and some vitamin E. Today hollyshit my beard is hyper flaking like what in the world!
I dont think its ever snowed this hard.

I wish we could all figure this ***t out already. On the flip side eye sight does seem clearer.
 

Belsazar

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Has anyone here actually confirmed that it is the vitamin a that gives them trouble by just taking a vitamin a supplement?
Most have a history of supplemental Vitamin A (or other retinoids) in the first place. But for me yes, last time I tried 2500iu for a few days again the first symptom appearing was migraines with aura next to worsening of joint pain and worsening of acne.
 

ursidae

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Most have a history of supplemental Vitamin A (or other retinoids) in the first place. But for me yes, last time I tried 2500iu for a few days again the first symptom appearing was migraines with aura next to worsening of joint pain and worsening of acne.
How do you understand the relationship between retinol and acne? There does not seem to be much clarity about it. People’s skin seems to respond in different ways (personally liver and butter breaks me out, tried synthetic vitamin a and it gave me a headache). No conclusive results on acne looking at Grant’s survey on low A diet results. I’ve thought about the fact that severe acne sufferers have low serum retinol and I think the reason is fat malabsorption which is why they’re low on vitamin e as well. It’s also possible that there are elevated needs or insufficient intake, but my feeling is it’s not getting absorbed.
 
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