Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Brother John]

Thanks for posting. Good to hear that you are doing better, it's intersting to hear peoples experiences with this.

Thanks Postman!

 

[dfspcc20]

@Brother John Were you ever on Tretinoin (Retin-A) or Isotretinoin (Accutane)? I have a theory that synthetic retinoids like these can derange normal vitamin A metabolism, possibly long term.

 

[Blossom]

@Brother John Were you ever on Tretinoin (Retin-A) or Isotretinoin (Accutane)? I have a theory that synthetic retinoids like these can derange normal vitamin A metabolism, possibly long term.

I'm interested in your theory.

 

[lollipop]

@Brother John Were you ever on Tretinoin (Retin-A) or Isotretinoin (Accutane)? I have a theory that synthetic retinoids like these can derange normal vitamin A metabolism, possibly long term.

I think I might see this in a friend who took accutane over 19 years ago and now suffers from serious scalp acne (I am sure there is a technical term - forgive me can’t think of it atm).

Edit: how to heal it?

 

[dfspcc20]

I'm interested in your theory.

I think I might see this in a friend who took accutane over 19 years ago and now suffers from serious scalp acne (I am sure there is a technical term - forgive me can’t think of it atm).

Edit: how to heal it?

It's really just a toy theory, based on my experience with both retin-A and accutane, and reading others experiences. I don't know how to heal it, if it really is a thing.

From what I gathered, Genereux used Accutane before? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Blossom]

It's really just a toy theory, based on my experience with both retin-A and accutane, and reading others experiences. I don't know how to heal it, if it really is a thing.

From what I gathered, Genereux used Accutane before? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm not sure if Grant took accutane.

There was a study done in mice related to retinoic acid and celiac disease and maybe one of our scientists can get the full text. I'd personally be interested in seeing it.

Nature. 2011 Mar 10;471(7337):220-4. Epub 2011 Feb 9.
Co-adjuvant effects of retinoic acid and IL-15 induce inflammatory immunity to dietary antigens.
DePaolo RW, Abadie V, Tang F, Fehlner-Peach H, Hall JA, Wang W, Marietta EV, Kasarda DD, Waldmann TA, Murray JA, Semrad C, Kupfer SS, Belkaid Y, Guandalini S, Jabri B.
Source: Department of Medicine, University of Chicago, Chicago, Illinois 60637, USA.
"In this study done in Chicago, they tested the immune response to retinoic acid in a mouse model of celiac disease. It did show that retinoic acid enhanced the inflammatory response. However, I believe more studies need to be done, as this is a mouse model and sometimes the exact mechanisms do not correlate to human immunology. In other words, mice and humans can be different."

 

[tankasnowgod]

I did some Googling on Grant Genereux's name, and found this article with a comment from Grant attached to it-

A Strict Diet of Lamb and Cheerios Leads to Boy’s Vision Loss

To summarize the article, a two year old boy was eating a very restrictive diet, that happened to be low in Vitamin A. This boy developed serious vision problems. His serum levels of Vitamin A were tested, and they were well below the normal range. The boy is given a megadose of Vitamin A, and the boy's vision improves.

Grant's conclusion in the comment? Why, the boy was suffering from Vitamin A toxicity the whole time!

This reminds me of a Ray Peat quote in regards to the mainstream view of estrogen- "The stove burns you because it isn't hot enough."

I can certainly believe that a lot of people are seeing improvements with a very low Vitamin A diet, especially if they took something like Accutane in the past (as
dfspcc20 suggested). Maybe the diet is also compensating for another deficiency, like Vitamin D, K2, or Thyroid.

But I just can take Grant's theory seriously if he's trying to push the idea that diet lower in Vitamin A than the rest of the population leads to a lower serum A level than the rest of the population that leads to a condition expected by said deficiency is, in reality, due to an overdose of said Vitamin.

 

[Mito]

...“Now, with my levels down to 0.1 µmoI/L, I just may have beaten his long-standing record. I’ll continue with my diet to see if I can achieve the 0.0 µmoI/L within the next year.”....
Nothing. It’s worth fighting for.

It will be interesting to see how long he can sustain a serum Vitamin A level that low. It’s been 4 years on his Vitamin A elimination diet yet his serum Vitamin A is not at the 0.0 he desires. He speculates that maybe the testing method can’t measure down to 0.0. But maybe it’s because his liver still has some in storage and it’s release into serum is very slow as the liver becomes depleted. What will happen when his liver is completely depleted? His total cholesterol is already down to 126 mg/dL and will likely continue to drop.

 

[Brother John]

@Brother John Were you ever on Tretinoin (Retin-A) or Isotretinoin (Accutane)? I have a theory that synthetic retinoids like these can derange normal vitamin A metabolism, possibly long term.

No, thankfully, I never used either of those..
Thanks for thinking about this..
Brother John

 

[ImprovingDaily]

...“Now, with my levels down to 0.1 µmoI/L, I just may have beaten his long-standing record. I’ll continue with my diet to see if I can achieve the 0.0 µmoI/L within the next year.”....
Nothing. It’s worth fighting for.

It will be interesting to see how long he can sustain a serum Vitamin A level that low. It’s been 4 years on his Vitamin A elimination diet yet his serum Vitamin A is not at the 0.0 he desires. He speculates that maybe the testing method can’t measure down to 0.0. But maybe it’s because his liver still has some in storage and it’s release into serum is very slow as the liver becomes depleted. What will happen when his liver is completely depleted? His total cholesterol is already down to 126 mg/dL and will likely continue to drop.

Is Vitamin A crucial in making cholesterol?

 

[Elephanto]

Is Vitamin A crucial in making cholesterol?

It is used in the conversion of cholesterol into pregnenolone and the hormonal cascade.

 

[ImprovingDaily]

It is used in the conversion of cholesterol into pregnenolone and the hormonal cascade.

Right, but Mito said that guy's cholesterol was 126, so im wondering what's causing the low cholesterol? Low vitamin A?

 

[Mito]

Right, but Mito said that guy's cholesterol was 126, so im wondering what's causing the low cholesterol? Low vitamin A?

This study found a strong correlation between serum retinol and total cholesterol and an inverse correlation with cancer.
Serum retinol and the inverse relationship between serum cholesterol and cancer.

 

[Elephanto]

This study found a strong correlation between serum retinol and total cholesterol and an inverse correlation with cancer.
Serum retinol and the inverse relationship between serum cholesterol and cancer.

inverse association between the risk of cancer and both serum Retinol and cholesterol concentrations [...] The inverse relationship with cancer was stronger with serum Retinol than with cholesterol, which suggested that the association with cholesterol might be secondary

Great find. This alone is enough to discredit Genereux's theory in my eyes, especially when other studies find the same association. Vitamin A induces the tumor suppressor gene p53 that is low in several cancer types, and promotes IGFBP-3 (a p53-responsive gene) which is lower in balding men and in prostate and breast cancer (interestingly promoted by Estrogen and stress, which Vit A both inhibit). Endotoxins also downregulate IGFBP-3 and Vit A is a TLR4 antagonist. I believe it was a key element of my stack that stopped hair loss. (in physiological doses of 2500iu-5000iu as Peat warns that more can be anti-thyroid)

I think his observations could be due to the fact that most "Vitamin A" intake is from Carotenes which are actually retinoid antagonists, which leads him to theorize (with a bit of mental contortions) that symptoms of Vitamin A deficiency are actually those of Vitamin A excess, when in fact it could just be the observation of high Carotene intake.

 

[Arrade]

Great find. This alone is enough to discredit Genereux's theory in my eyes, especially when other studies find the same association. Vitamin A induces the tumor suppressor gene p53 that is low in several cancer types, and promotes IGFBP-3 (a p53-responsive gene) which is lower in balding men and in prostate and breast cancer (interestingly promoted by Estrogen and stress, which Vit A both inhibit). Endotoxins also downregulate IGFBP-3 and Vit A is a TLR4 antagonist. I believe it was a key element of my stack that stopped hair loss. (in physiological doses of 2500iu-5000iu as Peat warns that more can be anti-thyroid)

I think his observations could be due to the fact that most "Vitamin A" intake is from Carotenes which are actually retinoid antagonists, which leads him to theorize (with a bit of mental contortions) that symptoms of Vitamin A deficiency are actually those of Vitamin A excess, when in fact it could just be the observation of high Carotene intake.

how did you find 2,500 iu Vit A? it's mainly 10,00 iu in supps

 

[InChristAlone]

That was my worry for Grant. That he may have traded his problems for the big one someday- cancer. How many people claim they were living good lives until cancer took them out?

 

[Elephanto]

@Arrade Purebulk's Vitamin A. A micro-spoon of 15mg equals to 3750iu. I also have Haidut's product which If I remember well is 1 drop = 2500iu but I prefer to avoid liquids stored in plastic.

 

[Arrade]

@Arrade Purebulk's Vitamin A. A micro-spoon of 15mg equals to 3750iu. I also have Haidut's product which If I remember well is 1 drop = 2500iu but I prefer to avoid liquids stored in plastic.

Are you referring to the retinol palmitiate:
PureBulk Supplements

They have a beta carotene as well
PureBulk Supplements

Also do you mean 15 mcg?
The supp I see would be much more vit A for 15 mg

 

[Elephanto]

Are you referring to the retinol palmitiate:
PureBulk Supplements

They have a beta carotene as well
PureBulk Supplements

Also do you mean 15 mcg?
The supp I see would be much more vit A for 15 mg

Yes the first product, check on the page 60mg dose equals to 17 500iu. Actually on the packet I have it says 15 000iu (divided by 4 for a 15mg spoon = 3750iu) so they must have changed the concentration.

 

[Arrade]

Yes the first product, check on the page 60mg dose equals to 17 500iu. Actually on the packet I have it says 15 000iu (divided by 4 for a 15mg spoon = 3750iu) so they must have changed the concentration.

Dablit!