Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[gaze]

It's a dogmatic answer though, you're ignoring all the evidence suggesting it has anything to do with VA avoidance.

Grant uses correlation observations, I wouldn’t call that evidence. if that were proper evidence you’d be vegan. But like I said, i hope properly designed studies get explored more on the topic

 

[postman]

Grant uses correlation observations, I wouldn’t call that evidence. if that were proper evidence you’d be vegan. But like I said, i hope properly designed studies get explored more on the topic

It is evidence. Whether it's good or bad evidence is another question. But seeing how it is not just his experience but the experience of many it is definiately worth looking into deeper, rather than just disregarding it.

No I wouldn't be a vegan. I don't feel good on vegan diets. I come to my conclusions mainly from experimenting and seeing how I feel, all this other stuff is just pointers and suggestions to me. The studies you ask for will never come just as there will never be "proper" studies on EFAD dieting in humans.

 

[tallglass13]

I have to say I'm pretty disappointed about Dr. Peat's response. I love the guy, but I find it very dismissive that the photos of Grant's horrible burning skin conditions were ignored by Ray. that is photographic evidence. several photos of Grant's rashes. Plus , the numerous people getting very remarkable results in such a short time with the VA elimination diet , if he even knows about this blog. I mean, for a person to get rid of terrible rashes without anything, like pregnenolone, or progesterone. Just simply avoiding a toxin. That is HUGE!
What is even more of a correlation, is that the Ray Peat foods are all high in VA. And so often people are gaining weight and continue to have the same lingering problems they always had. Ray talks a lot about a friend of his that got results from progesterone, or a rat study, or something that happened to him. That should not be considered evidence either , then. And if this VA thing is a huge evil conspiracy like it looks from Grants and Garrett work, then Ray will not find "evidence" in medical literature", because if it was, then VA poisoning would be common knowledge.
I sometimes think Ray is confusion problems from Estrogen or Iron, for the real problems of VA, since from the very beginning of his educations have been indoctrinated that VA is a vitamin. Maybe in the near future , Ray will re-think this VA topic. Im sure he is thinking about it now.

 

[Tarmander]

I have to say I'm pretty disappointed about Dr. Peat's response. I love the guy, but I find it very dismissive that the photos of Grant's horrible burning skin conditions were ignored by Ray. that is photographic evidence. several photos of Grant's rashes. Plus , the numerous people getting very remarkable results in such a short time with the VA elimination diet , if he even knows about this blog. I mean, for a person to get rid of terrible rashes without anything, like pregnenolone, or progesterone. Just simply avoiding a toxin. That is HUGE!
What is even more of a correlation, is that the Ray Peat foods are all high in VA. And so often people are gaining weight and continue to have the same lingering problems they always had. Ray talks a lot about a friend of his that got results from progesterone, or a rat study, or something that happened to him. That should not be considered evidence either , then. And if this VA thing is a huge evil conspiracy like it looks from Grants and Garrett work, then Ray will not find "evidence" in medical literature", because if it was, then VA poisoning would be common knowledge.
I sometimes think Ray is confusion problems from Estrogen or Iron, for the real problems of VA, since from the very beginning of his educations have been indoctrinated that VA is a vitamin. Maybe in the near future , Ray will re-think this VA topic. Im sure he is thinking about it now.

Peat seems pretty done updating his basic framework. Sometimes it’s great, sometimes it falls well short

 

[brainfog]

Exactly, why are people seeing such huge benefits from restricting VA? Personal experience and testimonials are evidence. It's not proof, and it's not even really good evidence but it's still a form of evidence

I would'nt be suprised that if vitamin a has nothing to do with it at all. If you cut out things that is hard to digest and get less inflammation your health should improve. Apperently they are getting alot of result at paleomedicina. Their diet are meat and organs and they seem to cure alot of patiens of alot of things by getting inflammation down by lessening intestinal permeability. In their reserch pretty much everything leads to intestinal permeability exept meat/organs. I think in Ray's views its a lack of energy that leads to intestinal permeability.

And what about the milk cure? Ppl who drank 5-10 quarts of milk for months and healed alot of things. I think they had thousands of patiens that just drank milk and relaxed and improved alot of problems...
The Milk Cure: Real Milk Cures Many Diseases

And all the groups of ppl that weston price came across who ate vitamin a and had good health?

I think the issue is inflammation/intestinal permeability.

By all means: experience for yourself. If its not dangerous.

 

[postman]

I would'nt be suprised that if vitamin a has nothing to do with it at all. If you cut out things that is hard to digest and get less inflammation your health should improve. Apperently they are getting alot of result at paleomedicina. Their diet are meat and organs and they seem to cure alot of patiens of alot of things by getting inflammation down by lessening intestinal permeability. In their reserch pretty much everything leads to intestinal permeability exept meat/organs. I think in Ray's views its a lack of energy that leads to intestinal permeability.

And what about the milk cure? Ppl who drank 5-10 quarts of milk for months and healed alot of things. I think they had thousands of patiens that just drank milk and relaxed and improved alot of problems...
The Milk Cure: Real Milk Cures Many Diseases

And all the groups of ppl that weston price came across who ate vitamin a and had good health?

I think the issue is inflammation/intestinal permeability.

By all means: experience for yourself. If its not dangerous.

You're just straight up wrong though, vitamin A is the main determining factor here. I've isolated it a long time ago now with supplementation and other experimentation. The question isn't if vitamin A is the factor, the question is why is it the factor, is it intrinsically toxic or is there some kind of health condition that leads to inability to metabolize it properly, or whatever. I'm sure that organ and meat diet you talk about has healing properties but that doesn't for example disprove the fact that iron is not a good thing to consume in such quantities. There are many good things about milk, and about raw milk in particular. Vitamin A causes inflammation and intestinal permeability but I don't know if that's intrinsic or if that requires that some other conditions to be met first.

 

[brainfog]

You're just straight up wrong though, vitamin A is the main determining factor here. I've isolated it a long time ago now with supplementation and other experimentation. The question isn't if vitamin A is the factor, the question is why is it the factor, is it intrinsically toxic or is there some kind of health condition that leads to inability to metabolize it properly, or whatever. I'm sure that organ and meat diet you talk about has healing properties but that doesn't for example disprove the fact that iron is not a good thing to consume in such quantities. There are many good things about milk, and about raw milk in particular. Vitamin A causes inflammation and intestinal permeability but I don't know if that's intrinsic or if that requires that some other conditions to be met first.

It could be a nocebo effect. Thats the problem with humans. We think. And that can affect the results based on what we belive.

 

[postman]

It could be a nocebo effect. Thats the problem with humans. We think. And that can affect the results based on what we belive.

Maybe all the PUFA problems are nocebo as well.

 

[gaze]

I have to say I'm pretty disappointed about Dr. Peat's response. I love the guy, but I find it very dismissive that the photos of Grant's horrible burning skin conditions were ignored by Ray. that is photographic evidence. several photos of Grant's rashes. Plus , the numerous people getting very remarkable results in such a short time with the VA elimination diet , if he even knows about this blog. I mean, for a person to get rid of terrible rashes without anything, like pregnenolone, or progesterone. Just simply avoiding a toxin. That is HUGE!
What is even more of a correlation, is that the Ray Peat foods are all high in VA. And so often people are gaining weight and continue to have the same lingering problems they always had. Ray talks a lot about a friend of his that got results from progesterone, or a rat study, or something that happened to him. That should not be considered evidence either , then. And if this VA thing is a huge evil conspiracy like it looks from Grants and Garrett work, then Ray will not find "evidence" in medical literature", because if it was, then VA poisoning would be common knowledge.
I sometimes think Ray is confusion problems from Estrogen or Iron, for the real problems of VA, since from the very beginning of his educations have been indoctrinated that VA is a vitamin. Maybe in the near future , Ray will re-think this VA topic. Im sure he is thinking about it now.

it doesn’t take long to find thousands of stories of people healing various conditions with veganism, keto, gluten free, high protein diets, low protein diets, fruitarian diets, milk only diets, milk free diets, fasting, over eating. You name it, all of these have been successful for people without hormonal supplements. grant healing his skin means very little in the grand scheme of health, and any authoritative claims made from his experience are dangerous just like all the other miracle cures. Although to be clear, i’m happy he healed himself and that’s the most important thing in any situation, but claims made as fact are very dangerous as history shows one must be skeptical about the new “truth”

 

[postman]

it doesn’t take long to find thousands of stories of people healing various conditions with veganism, keto, gluten free, high protein diets, low protein diets, fruitarian diets, milk only diets, milk free diets, fasting, over eating. You name it, all of these have been successful for people without hormonal supplements. grant healing his skin means very little in the grand scheme of health, and any authoritative claims made from his experience are dangerous just like all the other miracle cures. Although to be clear, i’m happy he healed himself and that’s the most important thing in any situation, but claims made as fact are very dangerous as history shows one must be skeptical about the new “truth”

What exactly of what he said do you think is an authoritative claim? To me it seems more authoritarian to stick to orthodoxy and disregard contrary evidence with single sentence replies and mockery.

 

[LLight]

At first, I was seduced by Grant's theory, but when I see studies like this one, it makes me doubt that vitamin A is at best useless or that it's just a toxin that the body is trying to excrete.

Vitamin A Metabolism by Dendritic Cells Triggers an Antimicrobial Response against Mycobacterium tuberculosis

"These studies indicate that the vitamin A system plays an important role in mitigating TB; however, the mechanism by which retinol influences the immune response is not a direct effect. Our results here demonstrate that for retinol to trigger an antimicrobial response, it must first be metabolized into ATRA; therefore, since TB lung has lower expression of ALDH1A2, systemic restoration of retinol levels will have minimal effects at the site of infection with a lack of local metabolism-dependent transactivation. Therefore, novel therapeutics that enhance retinol metabolism in the lungs of active TB patients could potentially be used in conjunction with retinol supplementation as an immunotherapy targeting the innate immune response to infection. Alternatively, given that normal lung expresses the vitamin A metabolic machinery, supplementation of retinol-deficient individuals prior to M. tuberculosis exposure provides a strategy that might prevent the spread of disease."

 

[tallglass13]

But in both of Grants books he has medical studies that is noting that VA is a toxin. Garrett is doing the same thing but bigger. Garrett has videos of him stating studies and incidents of people being injured or death of children from eating liver. Plus , How in the Lord's name can someone lower total cholesterol 100 points by eating Red Meat. That is from a few people on this blog plus Grant that lowered cholesterol 100 points. Not even a statin can do that really. I enjoy all of the RP foods, especially cheese and Milk, but I have noted problem with those. But going low VA brings on so many benefits in such short amount of time, eating regular foods.
This blog, plus Grants book, and Garretts work is the only people even experimenting this in the entire world. However, Roger Mason at Youngagain.org is an American macrobiotic diet of Whole Grains and beans, no nightshades, and claims to have patients cured from Prostate cancer and other terminal illness. If you look, its actually a zero VA diet. Just my thoughts.

 

[lampofred]

Could it be that since vitamin A is necessary for steroidogenesis and since the vast majority of people with health issues are producing too much estrogen relative to progesterone then eliminating vitamin A forcefully halts estrogen production and that is what is causing the benefits? The ideal is to have high progesterone and low estrogen but low progesterone and low estrogen via vitamin A restriction is better than low progesterone and high estrogen.

 

[LLight]

But in both of Grants books he has medical studies that is noting that VA is a toxin. Garrett is doing the same thing but bigger. Garrett has videos of him stating studies and incidents of people being injured or death of children from eating liver. Plus , How in the Lord's name can someone lower total cholesterol 100 points by eating Red Meat. That is from a few people on this blog plus Grant that lowered cholesterol 100 points. Not even a statin can do that really.

Could be a toxin in a particular context.
Cholesterol is part of the immune system.

 

[Pompadour]

However, Roger Mason at Youngagain.org is an American macrobiotic diet of Whole Grains and beans, no nightshades, and claims to have patients cured from Prostate cancer and other terminal illness. If you look, its actually a zero VA diet. Just my thoughts.

This site promotes beta-carotene as a necessary Supplement for those over 40. Here Untitled Document

 

[tallglass13]

This site promotes beta-carotene as a necessary Supplement for those over 40. Here Untitled Document

yeah, true, I did notice that as well, also his vitamin and hair formula have it. However, his whole food program is all about Whole grains and beans, while avoiding nightshades. I think his program works because it is low VA. aside from taking supplements that include va.

 

[redsun]

But in both of Grants books he has medical studies that is noting that VA is a toxin. Garrett is doing the same thing but bigger. Garrett has videos of him stating studies and incidents of people being injured or death of children from eating liver. Plus , How in the Lord's name can someone lower total cholesterol 100 points by eating Red Meat. That is from a few people on this blog plus Grant that lowered cholesterol 100 points. Not even a statin can do that really. I enjoy all of the RP foods, especially cheese and Milk, but I have noted problem with those. But going low VA brings on so many benefits in such short amount of time, eating regular foods.
This blog, plus Grants book, and Garretts work is the only people even experimenting this in the entire world. However, Roger Mason at Youngagain.org is an American macrobiotic diet of Whole Grains and beans, no nightshades, and claims to have patients cured from Prostate cancer and other terminal illness. If you look, its actually a zero VA diet. Just my thoughts.

Dairy like cheese and milk as you mention lacks important cofactors for using cholesterol except for zinc if you eat a lot of it. Beef steaks are high in B3, B6, iron, zinc... These nutrients are some of the most vital for making steroid hormones from cholesterol. So it isnt that surprising.

 

[postman]

Dairy like cheese and milk as you mention lacks important cofactors for using cholesterol except for zinc if you eat a lot of it. Beef steaks are high in B3, B6, iron, zinc... These nutrients are some of the most vital for making steroid hormones from cholesterol. So it isnt that surprising.

Doesn't Ray say that VA is required for converting cholesterol to pregnenolone and the other hormones? If that's the case then shouldn't a VA deficient diet raise cholesterol, like what happens if you remove one of the other cholesterol -> pregnenolone conversion requirements like thyroid for example?

 

[redsun]

Doesn't Ray say that VA is required for converting cholesterol to pregnenolone and the other hormones? If that's the case then shouldn't a VA deficient diet raise cholesterol, like what happens if you remove one of the other cholesterol -> pregnenolone conversion requirements like thyroid for example?

Yeh, if he had such a staggering decrease in cholesterol without directly consuming vitamin A for a long stretch of time you could either say he relied on body stores or that vitamin A is clearly not as needed for steroid hormones as Peat claims. I dont think fat solubles like vitamin A, if its even necessary to begin with, are anywhere near as vital as certain vitamins and minerals which are known 100% to have direct effects on steroid metabolism like the ones I already mentioned.

 

[Mito]

shouldn't a VA deficient diet raise cholesterol,

Not necessarily because bile acids are the primary pathway for cholesterol catabolism.