Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Tarmander]

I thought I should add my anecdotal report. I took accutane as a teen for about 4 months. During that time, I developed brutally chapped lips, aching joints, and an eczema flare up that went from my hands up to my elbows. Looking back at pictures it appears that I'm wearing lipstick my lips were so inflamed. It probably closed my growth plates too so I finished growing at 17.

Fast forward a few years and I was taking a Whole Foods 365 extra strength multivitamin as recommended by a personal trainer friend. It had something like 1000 percent of the daily recommendation for vitamin a as retinol. They've discontinued the vitamin since then so I can't check to confirm. Perhaps too many others experienced hypervitaminosis from it as well?

Not long after starting the multivitamin, the horrible chapped lips returned along with cracked and bleeding corners of the mouth. My joints also began to ache and became damaged to the point that I developed excruciatingly painful tendinitis in both knees. I realised then that it was the multivitamin causing my ailments and discontinued it. My lips cleared up within a month but it took nearly 3 years for my knees to recover.

I discovered grant's theory last December and figured if anyone would benefit from avoiding vitamin a it would be me. I didn't have any clearcut ailments to fix besides hypothyroidism but I figured I'd give it a shot anyway to see what happens. I cut out liver, which I was consuming weekly, and most brightly coloured vegetables. I still consumed non-fortified milk, cheese, and fruits such as mangoes, peaches, and tomatoes. I'm unwilling to restrict any food I love after my unfortunate keto experience.

Anyway, after 8 months I experienced no difference except for one thing: horribly dry eyes. Every afternoon my eyes would become so dry that it hurt to blink. It would persist until the next morning when it would mysteriously vanish. The cure? Well, I tried 12oz of beef liver and the issue instantly cleared up. I felt great immediately after having it too. It's been a month now and I've experienced no ill effects from adding liver back in, only benefits. I will, however, continue to avoid ultra-high beta carotene sources like orange sweet potatoes given what Ray has said about its negative effects in high amounts. Easy enough since I've always hated the orange ones anyway.

Vitamin A is absolutely needed to thrive. Just like some other nutrients, whether it's a poison or not depends on the dose. I think people who experience benefits from eliminating Vit A either had too much of a surplus to begin with, have some metabolic error that prevents them from clearing out the excess, or a metabolic error that prevents Vit A from being utilised properly.

So basically you cut out liver, but continued to eat cheese, mangoes, and tomatoes, and you got dry eyes, so added the liver back in and life is good.

 

[Blossom]

My diet is moose meat, white wheat bread, white corn bread, celeriac, coffee, red bull, distilled water, MCT oil, occasional coconut oil. I take eggshells for calcium and I eat some collagen. I'm experimenting a bit with some other supplements, mainly vitamins and minerals but also some things like aspirin.

Thank you sir.

 

[Blossom]

Thanks Blossom and good luck with the side of beef. I know Doc Saladino said he convinced the Peterson's to do liver in their carnivore diet. If they responded negatively to it then VA metabolism highly likely a problem for them.

Charlene Anderson:

“I grew up loving organ meats, but as I started unmasking foods (especially when I gave up all vegetation), I noticed inflammation with organ meats. My body didn’t tolerate them well. So, I listened as I did with everything else. I know organs have mega doses of nutrients, but ribeye has just what I need in the perfect amounts.”

That’s really interesting about Charlene, thank you.
I had heard that the Peterson family added liver. I sure hope they continue to do well and if not report any changes.

 

[Randle Cyclist]

So basically you cut out liver, but continued to eat cheese, mangoes, and tomatoes, and you got dry eyes, so added the liver back in and life is good.

Basically, yeah. I should clarify though that the majority of the time I was getting less than 20% of RDA for vitamin A and most of that was from beta carotene. The dry eyes were absolutely miserable. I work outside and I could barely keep my eyes open. I feel great now.

One thing I've noticed in the past is that sometimes liver is delicious if I don't eat it for a while but if I eat it too frequently it becomes repulsive. I assume that my vitamin A stores have something to do with this.

 

[Cirion]

One thing I've noticed in the past is that sometimes liver is delicious if I don't eat it for a while but if I eat it too frequently it becomes repulsive. I assume that my vitamin A stores have something to do with this.

I have noticed the same. Well, my organ meat of choice is liverwurst. And yeah it tastes great if it has been a while but quickly becomes repulsive lol. Liver is not something you need to eat very often for this reason. Probably part of what has gotten people in trouble following Peat is reading that liver is good and then gorging on it. No, it's something you would optimally have at most once a week maybe even just 1-2x a month and that would be enough.

There's a little thing called moderation that people are bad at. Including myself, if I'm honest. "I ate liver every day and got VA toxicity so liver is bad"... well yeah. But there's a balance between too much, and zero of it lol.

 

[Blossom]

I never ate liver excessively but I did force it at times. I think taking 4-5X more A than D for balance was a big mistake in my case.

 

[Amazoniac]

- Up-regulation of steroid biosynthesis by retinoid signaling: Implications for aging
- Accumulation of β‐carotene in normal colorectal mucosa and colonic neoplastic lesions in humans

There's a little thing called moderation that people are bad at.

Not everyone, check these out:
- Anti-Peat - Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity
- Anti-Peat - Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

I disagree with the last one because in being too understanding, you'll find a justification for everything; there's a limit for tolerance so that it doesn't become permissive. More or less related:

The Danger In Happiness: 'Everything now turns out best for me, I now love every fate.' 'Who would like to be my fate?'

But we can't deny that those are some neat moderating skills. Giraffe and tara would be proud, carlos might promote. Is Blossom after a Peace Nobel, a raise, or both (schultz, 2014-2019)?

 

[Blossom]

Is Blossom after a Peace Nobel, a raise, or both

Both!

 

[Amazoniac]

This info below was posted a couple years ago on the acne.org, wonder if VA overload is the root of B1 deficiencies, since we need to convert to RA to excrete VA.

I tried high dose B1/B2 previous to my low VA diet, with limit success. Trying allithiamine with low VA diet may be a novel way to get B1 back online. I may get some to test out, 10 months of low VA have done wonders for me, so I don't think it would hurt to experiment.


=====
Retinoic acid = decreased Transketolase (thiamine deficiency)

Accutane inhibits hippocampal neurogenesis by using up the NADPH reducing cofactor... Thiamine

NADPH needed as a CYP26A cofactor for retinoic acid detoxification.

NADPH (B1) and FAD (B2) cofactors should be promoted.


Proteomic approach reveals novel targets for retinoic acid-mediated therapy of thyroid carcinoma.
Our previous studies demonstrated that retinoic acid (RA)-induced reduction of both, the key glycolytic enzyme ENO1 and proliferation-promoting c-Myc, resulted in decreased vitality and invasiveness of the follicular thyroid carcinoma cell lines FTC-133 and FTC-238. By employing two-dimensional electrophoresis and mass spectrometry, we identified proteins affected by RA treatment. In addition to previously reported decrease in ENO1 expression, we found that RA led to significantly reduced levels of glyceraldehyde-3-phosphate dehydrogenase (GAPDH), pyruvate kinase isoenzymes M1/M2 (PKM1/M2), peptidyl-prolyl cis-trans isomerase A (PPIA), transketolase (TKT), annexin A2 (ANXA2), glutathione S-transferase P (GSTP1) and peroxiredoxin 2 (PRDX2) as compared to untreated control.
Proteomic approach reveals novel targets for retinoic acid-mediated therapy of thyroid carcinoma. - PubMed - NCBI

Decreased transketolase activity contributes to impaired hippocampal neurogenesis induced by thiamine deficiency.
Thiamine deficiency (TD) impairs hippocampal neurogenesis. However, the mechanisms involved are not identified. In this work, TD mouse model was generated using a thiamine-depleted diet at two time points, TD9 and TD14 for 9 and 14 days of TD respectively. The activities of pyruvate dehydrogenase (PDH), alpha-ketoglutamate dehydrogenase (KGDH), glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase (G6PD), and transketolase (TK), as well as on the contents of NADP(+) and NADPH were determined in whole mouse brain, isolated cortex, and hippocampus of TD mice model. The effects of TK silencing on the growth and migratory ability of cultured hippocampal progenitor cells (HPC), as well as on neuritogenesis of hippocampal neurons were explored. The results showed that TD specifically reduced TK activity in both cortex and hippocampus, without significantly affecting the activities of PDH, KGDH, and G6PD in TD9 and TD14 groups. The level of whole brain and hippocampal NADPH in TD14 group were significantly lower than that of control group. TK silencing significantly inhibited the proliferation, growth, and migratory abilities of cultured HPC, without affecting neuritogenesis of cultured hippocampal neurons.Taken together, these results demonstrate that decreased TK activity leads to pentose-phosphate pathway dysfunction and contributes to impaired hippocampal neurogenesis induced by TD. TK and pentose-phosphate pathway may be considered new targets to investigate hippocampal neurogenesis.
Decreased transketolase activity contributes to impaired hippocampal neurogenesis induced by thiamine deficiency. - PubMed - NCBI
13-cis Retinoic acid (accutane) suppresses hippocampal cell survival in mice.

Sakai Y1, Crandall JE, Brodsky J, McCaffery P.
Author information

Abstract
Use of the acne drug Accutane (13-cis retinoic acid, [13-cis RA]) has been associated with severe depression. This association has been considered controversial because no causative link has been found between 13-cis RA and this disorder. A recent hypothesis has suggested that atrophy of the hippocampus can result in depression. We now show, in a mouse model, that endogenous RA generated by synthetic enzymes in the meninges acts on hippocampal granule neurons, and chronic (3-week) exposure to a clinical dose of 13-cis RA may result in hippocampal cell loss. In humans this may be conjectured to be the mechanism by which Accutane contributes to depression.

also..
http://www.accutaneaction.com/Studies/2004_Sakai.pdf

I almost forgot about this, thank you for sharing.

Its metabolism is more requiring on oxidation, at least up until preparation for excretion. It cycles in the body but every reversion might be disconsidered when it's oxidized again, so the simplified model applies:
- Anti-Peat - Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

NAD receives most of the attention, but NADP can also do the job:
- The phosphate makes a difference: cellular functions of NADP

The last steps are usually overlooked:
- Generating retinoic acid gradients by local degradation during craniofacial development: One cell's cue is another cell's poison

Spoiler: Figure 2. Poisonoic acid metabolism and degradation

But I guess that the process is more demanding on niacin and riboflavin than thiamine. Megadosing the acid forms might change the story a bit..

Why thiamine diphosphate isn't popular?

--
- Expression of the retinoic acid catabolic enzyme CYP26B1 in the human brain to maintain signaling homeostasis

Both!

Looks are deceiving.

Mucosal immunity illustrates in biology a principle similar to that fostered by the ancient Romans in the context of diplomacy: Si vis pacem, para bellum, which roughly translates to 'if you long for peace, prepare for war.' Preparedness to deal with invading microorganisms and their toxic products, permanently present at a very short distance from germ-free mucosal tissue, goes hand in hand with a generally smooth operation of this vital absorptive surface, which is very extensive, renewed continuously by cell proliferation and irrigated by numerous blood and lymph vessels [40-45].

Could you fix the part of my brain that repeats words in posts? It's annoying and I'm having trouble editing it.

 

[Jamo77]

I did the high fat carnivore diet for a few weeks recently. It went really well until week 5. Coincidentally for the previous week I was consuming large portions of salmon every night. Full blown chronic fatigue was back as well as mood disorders. Salmon I read has "25% dv of vitamin A per 100 grams". Given the extremity of the carnivore diet I may as well try a low VA diet first and see the results.

 

[redsun]

I did the high fat carnivore diet for a few weeks recently. It went really well until week 5. Coincidentally for the previous week I was consuming large portions of salmon every night. Full blown chronic fatigue was back as well as mood disorders. Salmon I read has "25% dv of vitamin A per 100 grams". Given the extremity of the carnivore diet I may as well try a low VA diet first and see the results.

Carnivore diet and zero Vitamin A do not go together. Doing so is dangerous because there isnt the slightest feasible chance of getting at least of half of the necessary nutrients humans need without eggs, dairy, or organs in the diet including muscle meat or seafood itself of course. You likely depleted some nutrients which caused your issues if you avoided other foods like eggs, dairy, and liver all which have vitamin A.

 

[Cirion]

Vitamin A isn't the reason why salmon affected you imo. It's probably the PUFA. Yes, even omega 3 are harmful. I tried some salmon over christmas break and the fatigue it brought upon was POWERFUL (I'm talking sleeping 16+ hrs a day fatigue). As far as I know Peat recommends lean fish (if you like fish) instead, as a result.

 

[Orion]

But I guess that the process is more demanding on niacin and riboflavin than thiamine. Megadosing the acid forms might change the story a bit..

Why thiamine diphosphate isn't popular?

Tested allithiamine the last 5 days(~10mg/day). Did not go well; decreased mood, increased fatigue, frequent night wakings, colder hands and feet. Seems to drive carb metabolism to much in me, carbs used up to quickly?, stress response and like fat metabolism gets turned off. Assuming it skews the B1/B2 ratio to much, I did take extra B2 with it. Did not get this response from high dose B1 HCl and B2. That said it could be quite useful for some.

 

[Lynne]

would be really good if it wasn't for the silicon dioxide

@postman do you or does anyone else know if the trick some use of dissolving the tablet and drinking the liquid, leaving the sediment behind, effective for removing (at least much of) the excipients behind? Feel free to redirect me to the appropriate thread if there's one already discussing this, I couldn't find one.

 

[Blossom]

@postman do you or does anyone else know if the trick some use of dissolving the tablet and drinking the liquid, leaving the sediment behind, effective for removing (at least much of) the excipients behind? Feel free to redirect me to the appropriate thread if there's one already discussing this, I couldn't find one.

There was a member that used to dissolve pills in liquid and then strain the liquid through a coffee filter.

 

[Lynne]

There was a member that used to dissolve pills in liquid and then strain the liquid through a coffee filter.

Thanks @Blossom, I'm mainly wondering if it actually works, ie if it filters out all or most of the problem excipients and retains all/most of the active/desired ingredients...

 

[Blossom]

Thanks @Blossom, I'm mainly wondering if it actually works, ie if it filters out all or most of the problem excipients and retains all/most of the active/desired ingredients...

I see, I’ll try to find the post. It might help you determine if it would be worth trying.

 

[Blossom]

@Lynne, I still have it.

It will delay the release, not sure how much. But I think getalin is dissolved quickly in stomach acid and pepsin. You could see if a gelatin capsule disintegrates in vinegar or lemon juice - ph should be around 2 to 2,5 respectively. Anyway as long as all the powder is in the first (inner) capsule the supplement won't be time released, because as soon as the gelatin is gone everything will be released in once.

Time release tablets contain hard to digest stuff that inhibit immediate breakdown.

What I do is I buy capsules with the B-vitamins I want. For example niacinamine 500 mg. Then I determine about much I want daily, let's say 125 mg. I open 2 capsules, along with other B-vitamins I'd like to take, and a few mililiters demineralized or reverse osmose water. Shake the stuff, take a coffee filter and cut it in circles, fold it into a nice funnel like shape and place it on some small collection tube. Pipet your B-vitamin solution into this folded coffee filter. All the stuff (precipitate) will stay in the filter and you will have a clear vitamin B solution. Put a few militers of water in the filter several times to make sure you extract all the B-vitamins and you are done. To be sure you can repeat the filter step with a new coffee filter - use the already filtered solution.

I store this in the a fridge for about a week and then make a new one. This looks like much work but will take you only 20 minutes or so. I pipette about 3 ml in 1000 ml orange juice/ other drinks. And drink this throughout the day, my own time released intake. I am used to working with laboratory equipment so that's how this idea came up. I bought myself a gilson P1000 classic via ebay.

Fat soluble vitamins don't need time release since the body is a time release machine.

 

[Lynne]

@Lynne, I still have it.

Thank you most kindly @Blossom

 

[Blossom]

Thank you most kindly @Blossom

You’re welcome.