Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Dolomite]

any elimination diet works temporarily , even the carnivore diet. earlier in this thread you were saying vitamin A is 100% a poison and no one should ever eat any of it. Now your saying it might not be vitamin A. Sounds like you just couldn’t handle dairy

People who get gout, celiac and other diet related diseases can't handle some foods. Perhaps those who feel better avoiding vitamin a and beta carotene just can't handle foods with them. Maybe it is an elimination diet but so is the gluten avoidance for celiac. Gluten isn't a poison but it can act like one for some people. Vitamin A problems may be dose related and not a poison.

 

[CLASH]

I strongly belief the issue is gut microbiota/ lectin/ immune system related once the metabolic system breaks. These singular causes like gluten, vit A, carotenes etc. seem highly unlikely as the de facto etiologic agents.

The issue with milk: casomorphins and certain other components. There are numerous pharmcologically/ physiologic active components in milk besides vit a.

The issue with soy is exorphins, trypsin inhibitors, lectins, allergenic proteins etc.

The issue with nightshades is alkyloids and lectins.

The issue with carrots can indeed be excess carotenes.

The issue with different fruits can be fodmaps, fibers, glucose:fructose ratios and individual physiologically active conpounds like bromelain in pineapples, acetogenins in cherimoya/ soursop, excess flavonoids in berries, lignans and hard to digest fibers etc. etc.

Each food has different properties. These properties are further filtered by our microbiotas interaction with those properties, our bodies interactions (immune system/ metabolism) with those properties and our bodies interaction with the microbiota, etc.

There are certain foods that we are adapted to digest, based on our GI tract anatomy and physiology and our evolutionary background we are best evolved to eat meat, seafood, fruits, tubers and for some, dairy. I think the uprising in digestive disorders with these foods that we should be able to eat is due to a breakdown of our microbiota and our immune system/ metabolism which is intimately related with that microbiota. There are multiple etiologic factors in this breakdown. For some people they can come to peat and find thier groove and do well. For others they continue to have digestive disorders and other issues despite seemingly eating well. I think this is most likely from:
1) eating the wrong foods
2) pathogenic bowel flora

Eliminating pathogenic bowel flora can increase our tolerance to other foods. There may be other poisons in the body that can be limiting metabolically as well like mercury, lead, gadolinium, flouride etc. Deficiencies may also be issues. I think these latter issues are more easily corrected and less prevelant than the above considering the context.

 

[Louise]

I strongly belief the issue is gut microbiota/ lectin/ immune system related once the metabolic system breaks. These singular causes like gluten, vit A, carotenes etc. seem highly unlikely as the de facto etiologic agents.

The issue with milk: casomorphins and certain other components. There are numerous pharmcologically/ physiologic active components in milk besides vit a.

The issue with soy is exorphins, trypsin inhibitors, lectins, allergenic proteins etc.

The issue with nightshades is alkyloids and lectins.

The issue with carrots can indeed be excess carotenes.

The issue with different fruits can be fodmaps, fibers, glucose:fructose ratios and individual physiologically active conpounds like bromelain in pineapples, acetogenins in cherimoya/ soursop, excess flavonoids in berries, lignans and hard to digest fibers etc. etc.

Each food has different properties. These properties are further filtered by our microbiotas interaction with those properties, our bodies interactions (immune system/ metabolism) with those properties and our bodies interaction with the microbiota, etc.

There are certain foods that we are adapted to digest, based on our GI tract anatomy and physiology and our evolutionary background we are best evolved to eat meat, seafood, fruits, tubers and for some, dairy. I think the uprising in digestive disorders with these foods that we should be able to eat is due to a breakdown of our microbiota and our immune system/ metabolism which is intimately related with that microbiota. There are multiple etiologic factors in this breakdown. For some people they can come to peat and find thier groove and do well. For others they continue to have digestive disorders and other issues despite seemingly eating well. I think this is most likely from:
1) eating the wrong foods
2) pathogenic bowel flora

Eliminating pathogenic bowel flora can increase our tolerance to other foods. There may be other poisons in the body that can be limiting metabolically as well like mercury, lead, gadolinium, flouride etc. Deficiencies may also be issues. I think these latter issues are more easily corrected and less prevelant than the above considering the context.

So how do you get rid of the bad flora? How do you figure out deficiencies? These are the type of questions and answers I've been dealing with for decades. You people that are anti the Grant diet have all this "research" and statements but do not put forth any real solutions. People are suffering and the Grant diet helps them. Maybe it isn't the best but please provide a list a foods/amount of sun/amount of exercise that will alleve the pain and suffering.

 

[gaze]

So how do you get rid of the bad flora? How do you figure out deficiencies? These are the type of questions and answers I've been dealing with for decades. You people that are anti the Grant diet have all this "research" and statements but do not put forth any real solutions. People are suffering and the Grant diet helps them. Maybe it isn't the best but please provide a list a foods/amount of sun/amount of exercise that will alleve the pain and suffering.

There’s a difference between admitting that you are going on an extreme diet to stop your suffering, as opposed to claiming no human on earth should ever eat vitamin A because it’s a poison. certainly almost everyone would agree eat what makes you feel best first and foremost, but don’t go on to say everyone else is wrong without real science (not tht you in particular are doing that, i havnt read your posts)

 

[Louise]

There’s a difference between admitting that you are going on an extreme diet to stop your suffering, as opposed to claiming no human on earth should ever eat vitamin A because it’s a poison. certainly almost everyone would agree eat what makes you feel best first and foremost, but don’t go on to say everyone else is wrong without real science (not tht you in particular are doing that, i havnt read your posts)

I don't think anyone who hasn't tried many various diets or supplements would ever even think of trying a low A diet. The people here trying Grant's diet are desparate. They have tried and read about many diets/lifestyles. They have read up on nutrients. They have read up on toxins, hormones, etc.... I don't think anyone is going to try Grant's diet that hasn't tried many other approaches including the high dairy on here. As a kid growing up in the 70s, dairy was probably the food I had the most of. I had milk for breakfast, lunch and dinner and cheese for some of those meals too. I had constipation going back as far as I can remember, one of the worst cases of acne among my peers, very bad bruises from minor bumps, very cavity prone teeth and a curved spine. I was also very prone to infections such as the flu and bug bites that seemed to make me swell and itch much more than anyone I knew.

You say things posted here are "real" science. How would you or anyone else know if it is trust worthy? Because it is published and peer-reviewed? Maybe that works for you but it doesn't for me. After decades of "real" science proving vaccines are safe and effective I feel that anything that claims to be science can definitely be doubted. I have a master's in sci so I understand how it is supposed to work but have finally seen how it actually works. Your real science here doesn't square in many ways of the real science mainstream health advice. Etc.....

My main point is that people who come to sites like this one have exhausted options. I don't think a few months of a low A diet are going to harm them. After all, A gets recycled over and over and over doesn't it? That is why Grant isn't blind after 5 years.

 

[CLASH]

@Louise

Lol "you people". I'm not anti-grant diet. I think elimination diets are helpful. I just dont think grants hypothesis is correct, and functioning from that hypothesis, in my opinion may inhibit people from truly figuring out the underlying issue. This isn't a me vs. you or "us people" vs. you people debate. Its an acceptance that the elimination diet is working, but a questioning of if it is actually a vit A issue at the root.

For a flora issue I dont think an oral supplement is going to help unless the issue is in the small intestine or the stomach. I have used enemas of different sorts to help with the issue and have much more progress with that than with taking anything orally. If microbes build a biofilm on the colon wall, oral supplements and therapies will be hard pressed to reach them in any real way. The presents of these biofilms means that for many things you eat, you may be getting poisoned from the metabolites they throw off after metabolizing the food. Thus no matter how good your diet or how good your supplement regimen you still may have a poisonous agent or set of agents continuously present. Thats not to mention the triggering of the immune system induced by the interaction of these biofilms with the immune cells or the draining of minerals and vitamins by these biofilms with the body constantly detoxifying and/ or being robbed by the biofilms. As for things I have tried with some success here you go (This is copied directly from my personal notes, a summarization of things that I tried that actually worked for me), I can't give you a personal prescription I dont know what your issue is and I'm not a qualified medical professional:


*GUT*

1) Diagnostics:
•Genova GI fx comprehensive stool profile
•Doctors data parasitology x3


3) Digestive aids
•betaine HCL no pepsin
•ox bile


3) Herbal antimicrobials: (taken orally and as enemas depending on the issue. In a coconut oil base)
•jade bloom ceylon cinnamon oil
•zane hellas oregano oil
•monolaurin


4) Biofilm Disruptors:
•serrapeptidase
•bromelain (eat pineapple)


5) Bacteriophages:
•phage “x” depending on bacteria


6) Pharma GI antimicrobials:
•nystatin (can be used orally and as an eneme, very effective for fungal issues)
•rifaximin

*From here down are last resort options, these things are potent and potentially dangerous. They can make things worse sometimes. Guidance from a doc is a good idea here

7) Pharma systemic antimicrobials:
•fluconazole
•minocycline
•antibiotic “x” depending on bacteria


8) anti-parasitics:
•albendazole


The above I think is a major issue but it also doesnt rule out some foods just not agreeing with some people. Some people just cant tolerate dairy, it is what it is. Some people tolerate starches better, some people tolerate meat better. There are differen "species of human", just as there are different species of gecko or finch. I would think certain european groups do better with dairy, while others do better with meat. Certain african groups do better with fibrous root vegetables, while others do better with wild game. Some native american populations tolerate beans, squashes and starches well, while others are known for thier meat based diets. Overall I think that within the template I presented in the earlier post there is a variation of what some "species" of human tolerates as compared to other species, but it all generally falls within the paradigm that i layed out involving the evolutionary foods of humans being fruit, meat, seafood, roots/tubers and dairy. The other foods are simply not meant to be eaten from a physiologic standpoint.

As for your experience, dairy is known to cause acne in succeptible people from its hormone content, and constipation from its opiate content. Just because you dont react well to a food doesnt meant its vit A poisoning.

I dont doubt elimination diets are helpful, but I do doubt that pursuing something on a false basis is helpful in the long run. There are reasons these foods are irritating people (and I dont doubt that they are in fact irritating, I have experienced issues with dairy and many other foods firsthand myself; I actually dont consume dairy or oj at all), and I would say its most likely not because of the vit A but because of other factors present in the food. Knowing these other factors is more helpful, in my mind atleast, than pinning the cause on one somewhat arbitrary factor. It can become a cop out and prevent progress for people. Happens alot on these forums:

-just came off low carb, paleo, thyroid is ***t and cold all the time

-"I'm going to eat my way to metabolic health, I just need calories".

-continues to eat sugar, ice cream, milk, oj etc for a few months.

-Gains 50lbs, feels like ***t.

-Post on forum.

-people tell them, oh dont worry it will all come off eventually

-continues to eat the same way..

-gains 50 more lbs.

-takes 150mcg of T3 cause "its a thyroid issue"

-then takes 1000mg of caffiene daily

-loses maybe 20lbs max, still fat.

-"vit A is a poison"

-starts elimination diet, loses weight, feels better

-"gee golly gosh, must have been the vit A"

-"Grant, please teabag my face"

-10 years later.......

....

..

.

blind


I only make fun of this because I myself did alot of this, I can still see tho

 

[gaze]

I don't think anyone who hasn't tried many various diets or supplements would ever even think of trying a low A diet. The people here trying Grant's diet are desparate. They have tried and read about many diets/lifestyles. They have read up on nutrients. They have read up on toxins, hormones, etc.... I don't think anyone is going to try Grant's diet that hasn't tried many other approaches including the high dairy on here. As a kid growing up in the 70s, dairy was probably the food I had the most of. I had milk for breakfast, lunch and dinner and cheese for some of those meals too. I had constipation going back as far as I can remember, one of the worst cases of acne among my peers, very bad bruises from minor bumps, very cavity prone teeth and a curved spine. I was also very prone to infections such as the flu and bug bites that seemed to make me swell and itch much more than anyone I knew.

You say things posted here are "real" science. How would you or anyone else know if it is trust worthy? Because it is published and peer-reviewed? Maybe that works for you but it doesn't for me. After decades of "real" science proving vaccines are safe and effective I feel that anything that claims to be science can definitely be doubted. I have a master's in sci so I understand how it is supposed to work but have finally seen how it actually works. Your real science here doesn't square in many ways of the real science mainstream health advice. Etc.....

My main point is that people who come to sites like this one have exhausted options. I don't think a few months of a low A diet are going to harm them. After all, A gets recycled over and over and over doesn't it? That is why Grant isn't blind after 5 years.

I agree with your point, and I don’t pretend to know or have the answers. Grant could be close to being right, but that’s not the point i was trying to make. what i was trying to say is many on this thread jumped to conclusions claiming they had found the answer to all of life problems, then slowly after a couple months some other problems propped up, and now the language has changed to a milder form saying “vitamin A is probably bad” and that “all i know is the beef and rice diet works” What i’m doing is holding them accountable for falling under the trap that every diet follower falls under, which is claiming veganism, keto, whatever is the answer and that everyone else is wrong, when in reality it’s more complex. You make a fair point on my “real” science bit. mainly what i was trying to say is cutting out a bunch of different triggers and healing so therefore it’s vitamin A, when other people eat those same foods and are in vibrant health, isn’t adequate.

 

[Tarmander]

I agree with your point, and I don’t pretend to know or have the answers. Grant could be close to being right, but that’s not the point i was trying to make. what i was trying to say is many on this thread jumped to conclusions claiming they had found the answer to all of life problems, then slowly after a couple months some other problems propped up, and now the language has changed to a milder form saying “vitamin A is probably bad” and that “all i know is the beef and rice diet works” What i’m doing is holding them accountable for falling under the trap that every diet follower falls under, which is claiming veganism, keto, whatever is the answer and that everyone else is wrong, when in reality it’s more complex. You make a fair point on my “real” science bit. mainly what i was trying to say is cutting out a bunch of different triggers and healing so therefore it’s vitamin A, when other people eat those same foods and are in vibrant health, isn’t adequate.

Truth.

 

[InChristAlone]

@Louise

Lol "you people". I'm not anti-grant diet. I think elimination diets are helpful. I just dont think grants hypothesis is correct, and functioning from that hypothesis, in my opinion may inhibit people from truly figuring out the underlying issue. This isn't a me vs. you or "us people" vs. you people debate. Its an acceptance that the elimination diet is working, but a questioning of if it is actually a vit A issue at the root.

For a flora issue I dont think an oral supplement is going to help unless the issue is in the small intestine or the stomach. I have used enemas of different sorts to help with the issue and have much more progress with that than with taking anything orally. If microbes build a biofilm on the colon wall, oral supplements and therapies will be hard pressed to reach them in any real way. The presents of these biofilms means that for many things you eat, you may be getting poisoned from the metabolites they throw off after metabolizing the food. Thus no matter how good your diet or how good your supplement regimen you still may have a poisonous agent or set of agents continuously present. Thats not to mention the triggering of the immune system induced by the interaction of these biofilms with the immune cells or the draining of minerals and vitamins by these biofilms with the body constantly detoxifying and/ or being robbed by the biofilms. As for things I have tried with some success here you go (This is copied directly from my personal notes, a summarization of things that I tried that actually worked for me), I can't give you a personal prescription I dont know what your issue is and I'm not a qualified medical professional:


*GUT*

1) Diagnostics:
•Genova GI fx comprehensive stool profile
•Doctors data parasitology x3


3) Digestive aids
•betaine HCL no pepsin
•ox bile


3) Herbal antimicrobials: (taken orally and as enemas depending on the issue. In a coconut oil base)
•jade bloom ceylon cinnamon oil
•zane hellas oregano oil
•monolaurin


4) Biofilm Disruptors:
•serrapeptidase
•bromelain (eat pineapple)


5) Bacteriophages:
•phage “x” depending on bacteria


6) Pharma GI antimicrobials:
•nystatin (can be used orally and as an eneme, very effective for fungal issues)
•rifaximin

*From here down are last resort options, these things are potent and potentially dangerous. They can make things worse sometimes. Guidance from a doc is a good idea here

7) Pharma systemic antimicrobials:
•fluconazole
•minocycline
•antibiotic “x” depending on bacteria


8) anti-parasitics:
•albendazole


The above I think is a major issue but it also doesnt rule out some foods just not agreeing with some people. Some people just cant tolerate dairy, it is what it is. Some people tolerate starches better, some people tolerate meat better. There are differen "species of human", just as there are different species of gecko or finch. I would think certain european groups do better with dairy, while others do better with meat. Certain african groups do better with fibrous root vegetables, while others do better with wild game. Some native american populations tolerate beans, squashes and starches well, while others are known for thier meat based diets. Overall I think that within the template I presented in the earlier post there is a variation of what some "species" of human tolerates as compared to other species, but it all generally falls within the paradigm that i layed out involving the evolutionary foods of humans being fruit, meat, seafood, roots/tubers and dairy. The other foods are simply not meant to be eaten from a physiologic standpoint.

As for your experience, dairy is known to cause acne in succeptible people from its hormone content, and constipation from its opiate content. Just because you dont react well to a food doesnt meant its vit A poisoning.

I dont doubt elimination diets are helpful, but I do doubt that pursuing something on a false basis is helpful in the long run. There are reasons these foods are irritating people (and I dont doubt that they are in fact irritating, I have experienced issues with dairy and many other foods firsthand myself; I actually dont consume dairy or oj at all), and I would say its most likely not because of the vit A but because of other factors present in the food. Knowing these other factors is more helpful, in my mind atleast, than pinning the cause on one somewhat arbitrary factor. It can become a cop out and prevent progress for people. Happens alot on these forums:

-just came off low carb, paleo, thyroid is ***t and cold all the time

-"I'm going to eat my way to metabolic health, I just need calories".

-continues to eat sugar, ice cream, milk, oj etc for a few months.

-Gains 50lbs, feels like ***t.

-Post on forum.

-people tell them, oh dont worry it will all come off eventually

-continues to eat the same way..

-gains 50 more lbs.

-takes 150mcg of T3 cause "its a thyroid issue"

-then takes 1000mg of caffiene daily

-loses maybe 20lbs max, still fat.

-"vit A is a poison"

-starts elimination diet, loses weight, feels better

-"gee golly gosh, must have been the vit A"

-"Grant, please teabag my face"

-10 years later.......

....

..

.

blind


I only make fun of this because I myself did alot of this, I can still see tho

But how do you know focusing on biofilms is the answer? I am getting sick of any protocol. Ray is right on not using protocols, he is wise enough to know protocols fail. For some focusing on gut health didn't get them healthy and they are forever doing killing therapies. For others maybe it was just what they needed. The low vit A may be just what some need. Especially coming from a high A diet which is known even in basic science to cause issues.

 

[Vinero]

I agree with your point, and I don’t pretend to know or have the answers. Grant could be close to being right, but that’s not the point i was trying to make. what i was trying to say is many on this thread jumped to conclusions claiming they had found the answer to all of life problems, then slowly after a couple months some other problems propped up, and now the language has changed to a milder form saying “vitamin A is probably bad” and that “all i know is the beef and rice diet works” What i’m doing is holding them accountable for falling under the trap that every diet follower falls under, which is claiming veganism, keto, whatever is the answer and that everyone else is wrong, when in reality it’s more complex. You make a fair point on my “real” science bit. mainly what i was trying to say is cutting out a bunch of different triggers and healing so therefore it’s vitamin A, when other people eat those same foods and are in vibrant health, isn’t adequate.

I do actually believe vitamin A is nothing but a poison and is not a vitamin at all. What do you mean by "then slowly after a couple months some other problems propped up"? I haven't had any new health issues appearing since starting the low vitamin A diet (it's been almost 7 months). Other than some detox phases which lasted a few days my health has steadily been improving. My eczema and asthma are non-existant at this point. I can actually say I'm cured. That's right, I feel and look very healthy these days. I look like a completely different person when I look in the mirror. No more inflamed skin, no more itching, no more relying on asthma inhalers to get me through the night. You can't compare the keto diet or the vegan diet to the low-vitamin A diet. These diets cut out macronutrients like protein, carbs and even calories. The low vitamin A diet lets you nourish yourself very well and encourages eating as much as you want. As long as it's clean food like muscle meats, starch, beans, refined oils or white fruits/vegetables. We are avoiding a toxin as opposed to vegans and keto people or are avoiding essential macronutrients like proteins and carbs.

 

[Amazoniac]

- Human plasma retinol-binding protein (RBP4) is also a fatty acid-binding protein

"Plasma retinol-binding protein, RBP4, has so far been always considered to be highly specific for retinoids and, in particular, for one ligand, i.e. all-trans retinol. In fact, its secretion by the liver is only triggered by the presence of all-trans retinol bound to the protein and in vitamin A deficiency, RBP4 accumulates in the hepatocytes and is only released after retinol repletion [1,45]."

"In addition to its role as a selective transporter of retinol, a second function was assigned to RBP4, i.e. that of an adipokine [46], a cell-to-cell signaling molecule that influences energy metabolism and behaves like a marker of insulin sensitivity and adiposity. An increased level in plasma RBP4 is observed in type 2 diabetes mellitus, impaired glucose tolerance, obesity and cardiovascular disease [47]."

"It has been known for a long time that RBP4 is also synthesized extra-hepatically, mainly in the adipocytes that have the second highest expression level of the protein, about 20–40% of the amount synthesized by the liver [48]. Therefore, the observation that the protein of extra-hepatic origin plays no role in retinoid metabolism poses a question that has not yet received an answer: what is the physiological role of extra-hepatic RBP4? [49]. A reasonable proposal is that it should have a function related to its tissue of origin and our observation that RBP4 can circulate bound to a fatty acid opens up new possibilities to explain this possible dual role. The first, and better known function of RBP4, is in retinoid metabolism while the second, is as a transporter of fatty acids in plasma and is most probably related to its function as an adipokine and its alterations in adipocyte lipid metabolism [50]. Recently, adipocyte fatty acid-binding protein, also known as FABP4, has been suggested as a third adipokine produced by adipocytes, in addition to leptin and adiponectin [51]. Similarly, RBP4 was known first to be an adipokine and is now shown to be a fatty acid-binding protein which suggests similar roles for both RBP4 and FABP4 that present also some degree of structural similarity [52]."

"Our observation that RBP4, isolated from urine and amniotic fluid and believed to be apo, because not bound to the fluorescent all-trans retinol is, in fact, liganded to a fatty acid molecule raises the question of what are the concentrations of the two forms of the protein present in normal and pathological fluids. The fact that TTR is present in both urine [53] and amniotic fluid [54] in significant concentrations gives us confidence that the reason the fatty acid bound protein is purified isolated from its partner is a result of the conformational changes we have described and not an artifact related to the fluid of origin. Attempts to purify RBP4 by affinity chromatography on a TTR column revealed that two species were present in urine, one saturated with retinol that binds to the column and another, devoid of retinol, that does not bind [55]. We can thus propose that fatty acid saturated RBP4 does not bind to TTR. A careful evaluation of the two molecular populations in health and metabolic disease is likely to provide new clues as to the exact role of this protein in lipid metabolism. In this context it is worthwhile mentioning that the plasma RBP4 to retinol ratio has been indicated as a better indicator of metabolic disease in which it is found increased, even in the presence of lower total levels of RBP4 [56] and that the concentration of urinary RBP4 is elevated in patients with dysregulation of glucose metabolism [57]. These two facts indicate that it is the fatty acid bound population of RBP4 that is altered in metabolic syndrome."

"The different affinity of RBP4 when saturated with retinol or with a fatty acid for TTR is probably the cause of the presence of mostly the second species in human urine and amniotic fluid. However, we have also detected traces of retinol in urine and amniotic fluid samples probed with conventional mass spectrometry. It is possible that the protein isolated from those fluids may be the result of an interaction of holo RBP4 saturated with retinol and the specific receptor STRA6 but more likely is the secretion by the producing cells of the protein saturated with the fatty acid. Although the non-hepatic origin of the fatty acid saturated protein would appear a result to be taken for granted, a recent paper concludes that, in rats, adipocytes are not a significant source of circulating RBP4 which is almost exclusively produced by hepatocytes [58] which raises the question of the origin of the fatty acid bound RBP4 population in plasma, significant enough to allow its purification in quantities sufficient to produce crystals [22]."

"To summarize our results we can state that from now on we should not consider RBP4 anymore as a specific transporter of retinol but rather as a lipid binding protein with a specificity that has yet to be completely evaluated as are the binding constants of all its possible ligands. The conformational changes that we have described that explain the different affinity of the two complexes with the ligands for TTR are minimal but they can still explain the different destiny of the two forms of RBP4. Yet the complex RBP4-fatty acids ends up in urine only in the presence of a glomerulopathy and not in normal individuals and so its affinity for TTR or eventually for other not yet identified plasma components should be further explored. The most important unanswered question is the fate of the protein that has interacted with the STRA6 receptor which is not likely to be the species that we believed was apo RBP4 though we cannot exclude the possibility that in the process of retinol release the protein may take up a fatty acid molecule to fill up the empty hydrophobic ligand binding site. The second function of RBP4 as a fatty acid transporter and its role in lipid metabolism are new areas that definitely deserve to be explored in depth."​

 

[Tarmander]

I do actually believe vitamin A is nothing but a poison and is not a vitamin at all. What do you mean by "then slowly after a couple months some other problems propped up"? I haven't had any new health issues appearing since starting the low vitamin A diet (it's been almost 7 months). Other than some detox phases which lasted a few days my health has steadily been improving. My eczema and asthma are non-existant at this point. I can actually say I'm cured. That's right, I feel and look very healthy these days. I look like a completely different person when I look in the mirror. No more inflamed skin, no more itching, no more relying on asthma inhalers to get me through the night. You can't compare the keto diet or the vegan diet to the low-vitamin A diet. These diets cut out macronutrients like protein, carbs and even calories. The low vitamin A diet lets you nourish yourself very well and encourages eating as much as you want. As long as it's clean food like muscle meats, starch, beans, refined oils or white fruits/vegetables. We are avoiding a toxin as opposed to vegans and keto people or are avoiding essential macronutrients like proteins and carbs.

Your experience is awesome

But some people have had other things crop up after a few months. It isn’t so cut and dry

 

[Ronald1919]

Hey guys just an update,

I have abandoned Grant's restrictive diet. I prematurely declared victory on Seb derm. It seemed to be disappearimg (placebo?) but didn't. I gave it a good 8 months but just couldn't see the improvements and in fact other markers like my energy, muscles and libido were worse. The reason I got Seb derm in the first is because I had tried aajonus raw carnitard / dairy diet which I think messed up something in my body. Probably all those raw eggs and milk and honey I downed. I swore no more stupid diets but then I reaf Grant theory and felt it applied to me.

I recently tested my vitamin D levels since I had stopped supplementation 2 years ago and garret Smith reinforced my position on not supplementing since of course thinks its a poison too. My levels were very low.

I decided to supplement D and go back on my preferred style of eating. I eat meat, spinach, broccoli and other greens, quinoa, rice, whey protein. I supplement with a lot of other things like spore probiotics and B vitamins plus bodybuilding supplements like creatine. I take a green supplememt
I eat 2 eggs every other day. I avoid food like liver and sweet potato that's it. Pretty much my old lifestyle.

Not gonna claim any healing or miracles its just what I am currently doing. I don't know if I believe the theory anymore. Grant after all is just one man. He wrote very long books but they are all based on observations and his own personal anecdote. He's only one person. And I don't know what his life is like what his testesterone levels are like and other markers. I heard his radio interviews and I was even less convinced.

 

[Amazoniac]

creatine

It's worth trying.

An interesting property of creatine is acting as a buffer, it was Mito who trained me on it.
- "The Primary Sources Of Acidity In The Diet Are Sulfur-containing AAs, Salt, And Phosphoric Acid"
- Creatine 'buffer'

Since it's possible for members to be dealing with some degree of Franklin's reductive stress, hinted by being susceptible to adverse effects from carottenoids with little to no propoisonoid activity, it should be helpful in these cases. It also points to poor oxidation, fatigue was a frequent complain; it will help here as well.

Compromised mucosal barriers appears to be a common feature. It can assist the regeneration and impact immunity (check out the previous links in the creatine thread).

Clean eating leads to relatively low choline intake unless there's plenty of meat in the diet: another aspect that it can improve.

How low should poison A be kept daily? Some is necessary right. Maybe 3000 to 5000iu a day? Alongside the same iu d3 and high calcium diet

No doubt some is necessary.. for an early death. It's more like −3000 to −5000 IU/d. You can accomplish this with practices that exorcise it (such as alcohol, intense red light, and so on), leaving you purer each day and possessing a credit in case it's impractical to remove the oregano from your meal or to avoid kissing your girlfriend that has just eaten devilish eggs in a restaurant. If you order an alphabet pumpkin soup, you can mix as much as you want to, but the letters always end up forming the words 'autoimmunity' or 'last meal'.

In case you're unsure if it's benefiting you, it's better not to supplement it. It's preferable to prioritize nutrients first.

 

[BigChad]

It's worth trying.

An interesting property of creatine is acting as a buffer, it was Mito who trained me on it.
- "The Primary Sources Of Acidity In The Diet Are Sulfur-containing AAs, Salt, And Phosphoric Acid"
- Creatine 'buffer'

Since it's possible for members to be dealing with some degree of Franklin's reductive stress, hinted by being susceptible to adverse effects from carottenoids with little to no propoisonoid activity, it should be helpful in these cases. It also points to poor oxidation, fatigue was a frequent complain; it will help here as well.

Compromised mucosal barriers appears to be a common feature. It can assist the regeneration and impact immunity (check out the previous links in the creatine thread).

Clean eating leads to relatively low choline intake unless there's plenty of meat in the diet: another aspect that it can improve.

No doubt some is necessary.. for an early death. It's more like −3000 to −5000 IU/d. You can accomplish this with practices that exorcise it (such as alcohol, intense red light, and so on), leaving you purer each day and possessing a credit in case it's impractical to remove the oregano from your meal or to avoid kissing your girlfriend that has just eaten devilish eggs in a restaurant. If you order an alphabet pumpkin soup, you can mix as much as you want to, but the letters always end up forming the words 'autoimmunity' or 'last meal'.

In case you're unsure if it's benefiting you, it's better not to supplement it. It's preferable to prioritize nutrients first.

So liver and organs should not ever be eaten then?
Some claim vitamin A is necessary to create sex hormones and thyroid hormone

 

[Louise]

@Louise

Lol "you people". I'm not anti-grant diet. I think elimination diets are helpful. I just dont think grants hypothesis is correct, and functioning from that hypothesis, in my opinion may inhibit people from truly figuring out the underlying issue. This isn't a me vs. you or "us people" vs. you people debate. Its an acceptance that the elimination diet is working, but a questioning of if it is actually a vit A issue at the root.

For a flora issue I dont think an oral supplement is going to help unless the issue is in the small intestine or the stomach. I have used enemas of different sorts to help with the issue and have much more progress with that than with taking anything orally. If microbes build a biofilm on the colon wall, oral supplements and therapies will be hard pressed to reach them in any real way. The presents of these biofilms means that for many things you eat, you may be getting poisoned from the metabolites they throw off after metabolizing the food. Thus no matter how good your diet or how good your supplement regimen you still may have a poisonous agent or set of agents continuously present. Thats not to mention the triggering of the immune system induced by the interaction of these biofilms with the immune cells or the draining of minerals and vitamins by these biofilms with the body constantly detoxifying and/ or being robbed by the biofilms. As for things I have tried with some success here you go (This is copied directly from my personal notes, a summarization of things that I tried that actually worked for me), I can't give you a personal prescription I dont know what your issue is and I'm not a qualified medical professional:


*GUT*

1) Diagnostics:
•Genova GI fx comprehensive stool profile
•Doctors data parasitology x3


3) Digestive aids
•betaine HCL no pepsin
•ox bile


3) Herbal antimicrobials: (taken orally and as enemas depending on the issue. In a coconut oil base)
•jade bloom ceylon cinnamon oil
•zane hellas oregano oil
•monolaurin


4) Biofilm Disruptors:
•serrapeptidase
•bromelain (eat pineapple)


5) Bacteriophages:
•phage “x” depending on bacteria


6) Pharma GI antimicrobials:
•nystatin (can be used orally and as an eneme, very effective for fungal issues)
•rifaximin

*From here down are last resort options, these things are potent and potentially dangerous. They can make things worse sometimes. Guidance from a doc is a good idea here

7) Pharma systemic antimicrobials:
•fluconazole
•minocycline
•antibiotic “x” depending on bacteria


8) anti-parasitics:
•albendazole


The above I think is a major issue but it also doesnt rule out some foods just not agreeing with some people. Some people just cant tolerate dairy, it is what it is. Some people tolerate starches better, some people tolerate meat better. There are differen "species of human", just as there are different species of gecko or finch. I would think certain european groups do better with dairy, while others do better with meat. Certain african groups do better with fibrous root vegetables, while others do better with wild game. Some native american populations tolerate beans, squashes and starches well, while others are known for thier meat based diets. Overall I think that within the template I presented in the earlier post there is a variation of what some "species" of human tolerates as compared to other species, but it all generally falls within the paradigm that i layed out involving the evolutionary foods of humans being fruit, meat, seafood, roots/tubers and dairy. The other foods are simply not meant to be eaten from a physiologic standpoint.

As for your experience, dairy is known to cause acne in succeptible people from its hormone content, and constipation from its opiate content. Just because you dont react well to a food doesnt meant its vit A poisoning.

I dont doubt elimination diets are helpful, but I do doubt that pursuing something on a false basis is helpful in the long run. There are reasons these foods are irritating people (and I dont doubt that they are in fact irritating, I have experienced issues with dairy and many other foods firsthand myself; I actually dont consume dairy or oj at all), and I would say its most likely not because of the vit A but because of other factors present in the food. Knowing these other factors is more helpful, in my mind atleast, than pinning the cause on one somewhat arbitrary factor. It can become a cop out and prevent progress for people. Happens alot on these forums:

-just came off low carb, paleo, thyroid is ***t and cold all the time

-"I'm going to eat my way to metabolic health, I just need calories".

-continues to eat sugar, ice cream, milk, oj etc for a few months.

-Gains 50lbs, feels like ***t.

-Post on forum.

-people tell them, oh dont worry it will all come off eventually

-continues to eat the same way..

-gains 50 more lbs.

-takes 150mcg of T3 cause "its a thyroid issue"

-then takes 1000mg of caffiene daily

-loses maybe 20lbs max, still fat.

-"vit A is a poison"ee

-starts elimination diet, loses weight, feels better

-"gee golly gosh, must have been the vit A"

-"Grant, please teabag my face"

-10 years later.......

....

..

.

blind


I only make fun of this because I myself did alot of this, I can still see tho

So in other words spend thousands of dollars on maybe figuring out what is wrong with you. That may have worked for me when I still could maintain a life but there is no way I can afford that now. My experiene with tests and doctors is that the insurance companies won't pay for them. But maybe those tests could help someone. I don't know. 10 years ago I advocated for a blood panel for myself. I was charged 600 for it. I think I made this too easy in just asking what tests are needed. Also, are they trust worthy or just a money grab like so many "tests/procedures" are. Even some mainstream health care people or "experts" say they just are scratching the surface in what is needed to know about the microbiome. Just as an aside I have taken betain hcl, minocyline, monolaurin, and eaten alot of pineapple. During that time my health did not improve, though my health health has never improved dispite the various interventions experts, both paid and not (media, sites like this) have recommended.

There are always claims that this or that is the answer. And yes that is what Grant claims too but he is not making a dime on anything. I really don't think he has much of an ego in this at all. That is why some don't think he is very impressive in the interviews he gives.

To be more accurate I wrote "You people that are anti the Grant diet". But even if my label offended you, you and others anti Grant (is that a better label?) shoot down the diet any way you can. If even if you didn't label me as a Grant sycophant, puppet or groupie or a label at all, as a supporter of Grant's work/diet I feel you have put me and others in this box to point out how ignorant of the facts we are. So what is the difference? I label you and you maybe don't outright but imply that those of us who want to try the diet and recommend it are _____________ (you fill in the blank).

Is there a difference in saying vitamin A is a poison and one has too much vitamin A in their body? Yes of course. But I again say that no one is going to try to eliminate it as much as they can if they have not already tried many other things. Some try it and feel much better and others not. I think you give people very little credit in trying to figure out what is best for them. No one is going to just read Grant's work, and nothing else, and going to think vitamin A is a poison and then think they have to avoid it for the rest of their lives. On the contrary, people who stumble on his work or Peat's, etc..... have been trying to find answers for a very long time or after reading alot. The have applied their own experiences and those that they know of first hand. They have thought deeply about this. You and others here are very dismissive of people looking at their problems first hand, not just what research has to say about it.

 

[Vinero]

But I again say that no one is going to try to eliminate it as much as they can if they have not already tried many other things

This. I tried everything before starting the low vitamin A diet. Including many of Ray Peats principles like eating high calcium, gelatin, no starch, vitamin D, Progesterone, thyroid, and many idealabs supplements. I probably spent hundreds or even thousands of euros over the years and my health was only getting worse over time. I almost died from my asthma. Ask yourself this: are asthma, eczema and pneumonia signs that your body is healthy? This is the state of health that the Ray Peat diet has produced by following it for a few years. My health was failing. If I didn't have access to antibiotics and asthma inhalers I would be dead right now. The low vitamin A diet is the best thing I have ever done for my health, and the best part of it is that its free. I don't spend hundreds of euros a months on the "perfect supplement stack" or the next magical supplement that is going to turn things around. Getting healthy was never this easy and cheap. Just eat meat and rice for every meal (with beans or white fruits/vegetables if you like).

 

[Amazoniac]

So liver and organs should not ever be eaten then?
Some claim vitamin A is necessary to create sex hormones and thyroid hormone

It was a joke. Just avoid unnecessary supplementation and force-feeding.

There are always claims that this or that is the answer. And yes that is what Grant claims too but he is not making a dime on anything. I really don't think he has much of an ego in this at all. That is why some don't think he is very impressive in the interviews he gives.

Anywhere regardless of the media, but it's for not presenting convincing stuff and encouraging an inconsiderate approach.

those of us who want to try the diet and recommend it are _____________ (you fill in the blank).

desperate

What's dictating the intake might not be the need for it, but some imposed limitation that affects the tolerance. An example would be protein: the person for whatever reason can have trouble digesting or metabolizing it, cravings are probably going to be diminished, and of course avoidance in this case will be relieving, inflammation will decrease and some aspects of wealth must improve. You'll come across some random people telling that it's a toxin based on similar experience, be compelled to accept the intolerance as normal and settle.

For a minority it might even suffice to fix their problem, allowing them to normalize the intake later; for others, they will adapt to it to the best of their abilities and the net effect will be positive for a while, with the transition to negative likely being subtle. For both, lowering the consumption was never based on actual needs and this is the concern in prolonging it.

One of the ways that it can work is by attempting to stop this cycle:
- Calcirol - Liquid Vitamin D3

No one is going to just read Grant's work, and nothing else, and going to think vitamin A is a poison and then think they have to avoid it for the rest of their lives.

Kammas is right, the overall tone has been changing smoothly, it's barely perceptible unless the initial fervor is fresh in your mind. Yet even now at this point in time we have an example of a guru willing to push it indefinitely for being certain that it's inherently harmful.

--
- Vitamin A Deficiency and the Lung

Google was generous to me in returning these results on the first page. Not sure if I'll be reading them, but posting them here before I forget because they might interest some of you:
- The Lung Microbiome, Immunity and the Pathogenesis of Chronic Lung Disease
- Paradigms of Lung Microbiota Functions in Health and Disease, Particularly, in Asthma
- The respiratory tract microbiome and lung inflammation: a two-way street
- Human Lung Microbiome on the Way to Cancer

 

[charlie]

So liver and organs should not ever be eaten then?
Some claim vitamin A is necessary to create sex hormones and thyroid hormone

Thymus and Pancreas have zero vitamin A.

Beef, variety meats and by-products, pancreas, raw Nutrition Facts & Calories
Beef, variety meats and by-products, thymus, raw Nutrition Facts & Calories

 

[BigChad]

It was a joke. Just avoid unnecessary supplementation and force-feeding.


Anywhere regardless of the media, but it's for not presenting convincing stuff and encouraging an inconsiderate approach.

desperate

What's dictating the intake might not be the need for it, but some imposed limitation that affects the tolerance. An example would be protein: the person for whatever reason can have trouble digesting or metabolizing it, cravings are probably going to be diminished, and of course avoidance in this case will be relieving, inflammation will decrease and some aspects of wealth must improve. You'll come across some random people telling that it's a toxin based on similar experience, be compelled to accept the intolerance as normal and settle.

For a minority it might even suffice to fix their problem, allowing them to normalize the intake later; for others, they will adapt to it to the best of their abilities and the net effect will be positive for a while, with the transition to negative likely being subtle. For both, lowering the consumption was never based on actual needs and this is the concern in prolonging it.

One of the ways that it can work is by attempting to stop this cycle:
- Calcirol - Liquid Vitamin D3

Kammas is right, the overall tone has been changing smoothly, it's barely perceptible unless the initial fervor is fresh in your mind. Yet even now at this point in time we have an example of a guru willing to push it indefinitely for being certain that it's inherently harmful.

--
- Vitamin A Deficiency and the Lung

Google was generous to me in returning these results on the first page. Not sure if I'll be reading them, but posting them here before I forget because they might interest some of you:
- The Lung Microbiome, Immunity and the Pathogenesis of Chronic Lung Disease
- Paradigms of Lung Microbiota Functions in Health and Disease, Particularly, in Asthma
- The respiratory tract microbiome and lung inflammation: a two-way street
- Human Lung Microbiome on the Way to Cancer

I don't eat organs, so i have been supplementing A. I average 4500 iu A per day from diet and supps combined, but 500 iu of that is beta carotene