Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[tankasnowgod]

Mito already posted this study showing that steroid synthesis doesn't rely on VA at all.
Vitamin A: not required for adrenal steroidogenesis in rats. - PubMed - NCBI

Well.... adrenal steroids, at least. So, no worries, your body can still pump out cortisol and aldosterone, and maybe DHEA.

Thinking about this, higher cortisol levels (or a higher ratio to things like pregnenolone, testosterone and thyroid) would completely jive with the negative effects I experienced, and could also go a long way in explaining the positive effects that others have claimed. Could be very similar in nature to the benefits that some people see from low carb or keto.

 

[Mito]

Let me know in case the Chris thing has been annoying you.

Maybe if I wasn’t cranking out so many video’s I’d have time to be annoyed

 

[Mito]

I doubt he will ever admit that VA intake can cause such horrible symptoms even at very low doses, since it is one of his principal recommendations.

Maybe or maybe not. The carrot salad was and is a principal recommendation but he now says it doesn’t work for him.

 

[InChristAlone]

Well.... adrenal steroids, at least. So, no worries, your body can still pump out cortisol and aldosterone, and maybe DHEA.

Thinking about this, higher cortisol levels (or a higher ratio to things like pregnenolone, testosterone and thyroid) would completely jive with the negative effects I experienced, and could also go a long way in explaining the positive effects that others have claimed. Could be very similar in nature to the benefits that some people see from low carb or keto.

Why do you say 'maybe' DHEA? Maybe a chart on the synthesis of steroid hormones in the adrenal cortex will help.

And then further on down the line conversions into testosterone and estradiol in the tissues.

As far as thyroid hormone, Peat warns that it DOES block thyroid even 5,000 IUs can be toxic. My working theory on why using more and more vitamin A seems to calm people down is because they've been using so much that when they go off it starts to come out and cause symptoms, using more calms the symptoms sequesters it for later on until which it can't be stuffed away any longer, and using more and more isn't helping and new more serious health problems come up. In which case they come on RPF where they get told they need more thyroid, more progesterone, more androsterone, more vitamin D, more caffeine because they are so full of vitamin A they need to perpetually try to increase thyroid hormones for life. I guess some people are saying **** that! lower the vitamin A and you then have no need to take in all these unnecessary supplements.

 

[Collden]

..which is reflect'd in the table that you uploaded.
As remarkable as the effect of extra antidote C is, survival can't be a good parameter.

View attachment 13725

"It was also found, as might be expected in the few tests that it was possible to make, that the administration of vitamin C restored the adrenal, liver and blood ascorbic acid values to normal. Although the administration of vitamin A restored liver ascorbic acid to normal (28 mg per 100 gm), and had effected an increase in the adrenal ascorbic acid (average of 275 mg per 100 gm), the blood vitamin C level was still low (8 ug per ml)."​

So values seemed to increase but only to acceptable levels.

Well they not only survived but also seemed to grow almost normally (+104% growth vs +136% in controls), they also mention a separate experiment where

"a group of 25 weanling male rats of the Sprague-Dawley strain (ordered specifically for purposes of vitamin A assay so as to have low vitamin A reserves) were placed on the vitamin A deficient diet (A^ ; 80% of the animals have survived for 80 days and attained an average weight of 245 gm. No xerophthalmia or marked visible evidence of vitamin A deficiency is apparent in these surviving animals. Of 6 control animals on the same diet but receiving vitamin A, all have survived, and their average weight at 80 clays was 370 gm."

Sure, the cure with Vitamin C wasn't 100%, but nevertheless suggests that much of the disease state caused by VA depletion diets in rats is secondary to disturbed Vitamin C metabolism. This makes it even more difficult to extrapolate from rat studies about the need for VA in humans since we have totally different Vitamin C metabolism.

 

[postman]

Maybe or maybe not. The carrot salad was and is a principal recommendation but he now says it doesn’t work for him.

Huh I didn't hear that. Do you have a link?

 

[Collden]

Well.... adrenal steroids, at least. So, no worries, your body can still pump out cortisol and aldosterone, and maybe DHEA.

Well most of the data linking VA to testicular function, testosterone, spermatogenesis, etc, come from these kind of studies of rats with total VA depletion. Its well described how scurvy messes up the reproductive organs, so it seems likely that the purported effects of (lacking) VA here are really due to the Vitamin C deficiency as well.

 

[Mito]

Why do you say 'maybe' DHEA? Maybe a chart on the synthesis of steroid hormones in the adrenal cortex will help.
View attachment 13726
And then further on down the line conversions into testosterone and estradiol in the tissues.

Adrenal exhaustion

 

[postman]

View attachment 13728
Adrenal exhaustion

Doesn't this mean that a VA "deficiency" will lead to lower cortisol and estrogen levels, as well as lower progesterone and testosterone?

 

[InChristAlone]

View attachment 13728
Adrenal exhaustion

Where are the references to show A is absolutely required to make those hormones? Especially since we just talked about the study where A was not required for adrenal steroid synthesis. Not to mention you are quoting a paper on adrenal exhaustion that talks about coffee stimulating adrenaline and exhaustion, which actually I agree with, seems people need more and more coffee around here. But I can't talk about that on a Peat forum.

 

[Mito]

Doesn't this mean that a VA "deficiency" will lead to lower cortisol and estrogen levels, as well as lower progesterone and testosterone?

I think so but if that figure is correct, then the steroids that do not need Vitamin A as a cofactor would probably increase proportionately. So you end up with a higher ratio of cortisol and estrogen to progesterone or testosterone.

 

[postman]

I think so but if that figure is correct, then the steroids that do not need Vitamin A as a cofactor would probably increase proportionately. So you end up with a higher ratio of cortisol and estrogen to progesterone or testosterone.

But according to your figure you posted VA is required to make progesterone and androstenedione, which are required to make cortisol and estrogen?

 

[postman]

According to you figure it would just increase pregnenolone and DHEA in relation to everything else

 

[InChristAlone]

I think so but if that figure is correct, then the steroids that do not need Vitamin A as a cofactor would probably increase proportionately. So you end up with a higher ratio of cortisol and estrogen to progesterone or testosterone.

Where are the studies that show without a shadow of a doubt vitamin A is required in the conversion? Also Peat fans take that figure and say oh Vitamin A is necessary for progesterone, androsterone and testosterone, might as well eat liver everyday then!! But... uh... it doesn't say how much is needed, it could be 50 IU a day, in which case your excessive liver eating is not going to result in any more progesterone.

 

[postman]

Where are the studies that show without a shadow of a doubt vitamin A is required in the conversion? Also Peat fans take that figure and say oh Vitamin A is necessary for progesterone, androsterone and testosterone, might as well eat liver everyday then!! But... uh... it doesn't say how much is needed, it could be 50 IU a day, in which case your excessive liver eating is not going to result in any more progesterone.

G00d questions.

 

[Mito]

But according to your figure you posted VA is required to make progesterone and androstenedione, which are required to make cortisol and estrogen?

I think it could still still effect the balance. Maybe a higher percentage of progesterone would convert to cortisol to compensate for the lower total progesterone. Just my speculation, too bad Grant doesn’t test his hormones. He would make a great test case for this.

 

[Mito]

Where are the references to show A is absolutely required to make those hormones?

I’ll see if I can find any besides Ray Peat.

 

[Mito]

about coffee stimulating adrenaline and exhaustion, which actually I agree with, seems people need more and more coffee around here. But I can't talk about that on a Peat forum.

Peat agrees with this right? He has a quote about people using caffeine as “speed” when it should be used as a food. Caffeine without enough carbohydrates can raise adrenaline.

 

[Mito]

Huh I didn't hear that. Do you have a link?

I don’t but I’ll post it if I come across it again. Haidut talked about it in a recent Danny Roddy YouTube.

 

[InChristAlone]

Peat agrees with this right? He has a quote about people using caffeine as “speed” when it should be used as a food. Caffeine without enough carbohydrates can raise adrenaline.

But I am more referring to why do people need more and more coffee to function? Plus if you use the same amount everyday say one mug your body is just going to adapt to that amount and it's not going to keep giving you the same boost, it's just bringing you back to baseline so it feels like a boost. The best way to use caffeine is to cycle it so the body isn't adapted quite yet.

Anyway, this conversation doesn't seem to be getting anywhere!