Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

Blossom

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Collden

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I´m 4 months into the low vitamin A diet now and I am doing great. All of my previous health problems are gone.I no longer need antibiotics to keep my asthma and infections away. I was taking both doxycycline and azithromycine to combat my severe asthma and recurring respiratory infections. My experience is exactly the same as the OP Franko. My health was progressively getting worse each year when I was peating, to the point I needed antibiotics to survive. My skin was burning and flaking off everyday, I was having all the symptoms of being vitamin A toxic. It wasn´t until 4 months ago that I completely stopped peating and began eating the low vitamin A diet that my health started to turn around. My skin is very smooth now. I have no more eczema and am not using any medications, steroids, thyroid or antibiotics. I actually got a job since I am able to work again. I have been super busy lately so not much time to be active on the RPF. I am finally able to enjoy life. I haven´t eaten any dairy or any peat/approved foods like oranges or gelatin. I feel fine and have all the indications of having good testosterone levels.
Thats awesome! Thanks for sharing. I noticed actually a lot of RPF members who started on this diet (franko, Brother John, Ronald1919, bennyha) basically stopped posting altogether after a while, I guess this is the tendency when you found the key to resolve your health issues there is no need to hang around a health forum anymore.
 

Vinero

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I basically eat as much white rice as I want with lean beef or turkey breast. I also eat an apple or two every day to get my glucaric acid. I sometimes add cauliflower or mushrooms to my rice + meat meals. I sporadically eat black beans when I crave them. Apple juice, coke or water to drink. Supplements are magnesium and vitamin C, and zinc. I have recently switched to eating organic white rice, as that might have less glyphosate than regular white rice.
 
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I basically eat as much white rice as I want with lean beef or turkey breast. I also eat an apple or two every day to get my glucaric acid. I sometimes add cauliflower or mushrooms to my rice + meat meals. I sporadically eat black beans when I crave them. Apple juice, coke or water to drink. Supplements are magnesium and vitamin C, and zinc. I have recently switched to eating organic white rice, as that might have less glyphosate than regular white rice.
Calcium?
 

Vinero

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I haven't eaten any calcium for 4 months. No milk, no cheese, no calcium supplements whatsoever. We do not need as much calcium as Ray recommends as long as your vitamin A intake is low. Vitamin A causes you to lose calcium from your bones, thereby increasing your calcium requirements. That's why eating cheese or milk for strengthening your bones is useless. My teeth have become progressively weaker the last few years during which my dairy intake was very high. I don't believe dairy is a healthy food anymore. In fact, I agree with Dr Garret Smith in that Dairy products are very dangerous and the perfect storm for causing vitamin A toxicity.
The "perfect storm" of Poison/"Vitamin A" problems from dairy products
 

Cirion

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I think Ray is right on Calcium as I've now proved him right on almost everything else. But, I also think dairy (for most people) is not helpful, it certainly isn't helpful for me. I've started a massive data collection to show what improves (or degrades) metabolism and so far almost all of Peat's principles do indeed hold true. I don't have enough to be fully conclusive, but so far the data is indeed showing higher Ca:P ratio is beneficial (but for me, in the context of no dairy). I started supplementation of calcium now, to drive the ratios up (It's hard to get a ratio of 1-2 without dairy) to see what happens. However, almost any amount of tryptophan tanks my metabolism like a rock, so milk is absolutely a no-no food for me. It is a bit unfair to say calcium is bad because milk may be a bad food choice, in my opinion. But, I completely understand your stance on dairy itself. Phosphorus is a dangerous substance in large amounts left unchecked by calcium, I absolutely think Ray is right on that. Old school bodybuilders knew about the importance of optimizing the Ca:P ratio also.
 

Lynne

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I basically eat as much white rice as I want with lean beef or turkey breast. I also eat an apple or two every day to get my glucaric acid. I sometimes add cauliflower or mushrooms to my rice + meat meals. I sporadically eat black beans when I crave them. Apple juice, coke or water to drink. Supplements are magnesium and vitamin C, and zinc. I have recently switched to eating organic white rice, as that might have less glyphosate than regular white rice.

Thanks @Vinero, that's pretty close to what I've been eating :grin

I haven't eaten any calcium for 4 months. No milk, no cheese, no calcium supplements whatsoever. We do not need as much calcium as Ray recommends as long as your vitamin A intake is low. Vitamin A causes you to lose calcium from your bones, thereby increasing your calcium requirements. That's why eating cheese or milk for strengthening your bones is useless. My teeth have become progressively weaker the last few years during which my dairy intake was very high. I don't believe dairy is a healthy food anymore. In fact, I agree with Dr Garret Smith in that Dairy products are very dangerous and the perfect storm for causing vitamin A toxicity.
The "perfect storm" of Poison/"Vitamin A" problems from dairy products

I think Ray is right on Calcium as I've now proved him right on almost everything else. But, I also think dairy (for most people) is not helpful, it certainly isn't helpful for me. I've started a massive data collection to show what improves (or degrades) metabolism and so far almost all of Peat's principles do indeed hold true. I don't have enough to be fully conclusive, but so far the data is indeed showing higher Ca:P ratio is beneficial (but for me, in the context of no dairy). I started supplementation of calcium now, to drive the ratios up (It's hard to get a ratio of 1-2 without dairy) to see what happens. However, almost any amount of tryptophan tanks my metabolism like a rock, so milk is absolutely a no-no food for me. It is a bit unfair to say calcium is bad because milk may be a bad food choice, in my opinion. But, I completely understand your stance on dairy itself. Phosphorus is a dangerous substance in large amounts left unchecked by calcium, I absolutely think Ray is right on that. Old school bodybuilders knew about the importance of optimizing the Ca:P ratio also.

Good to know, since I don't do well on most dairy either.
 

Mito

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I feel fine and have all the indications of having good testosterone levels.
Why not test your hormones? Four months should be long enough to have a significant effect. This way you can show us that Vitamin A is not as important to hormone synthesis as some studies seem to indicate.
 

Amazoniac

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"The kinetic studies have shown that there is extensive recycling of retinol between plasma and tissues prior to its irreversible loss from the body." "In rats experiencing low or marginal retinoid nutritional status (liver total retinol ~3.5 nmol) [39], the plasma retinol turnover rate (70 nmol/day) was about 12-times the disposal rate, indicating that, even though plasma retinol levels and liver retinoid stores were low in these rats (0.35 umol/L and 3.5 nmol, respectively), retinoid recycling was still high. Although dietary retinoid intake was very low for these animals, plasma retinol concentrations were only about 20% of normal, and liver retinoid stores were essentially depleted, these rats grew normally and appeared healthy. Thus, the animals appeared to have adapted to the chronic condition of low dietary retinoid intake."


"Tracer kinetic studies have [] been carried out in human subjects and these have resulted in kinetic models for predicting human retinol turnover. In humans, ~50 μmol/day (14.3 mg/day) of retinol passes through plasma, compared with an estimated disposal rate of 4 μmol/day (1.14 mg/day) [43]. This model predicts that a large portion of retinol that is taken up by organs and tissues from circulating retinol-RBP is recycled back into plasma and that only a minor portion is either converted to active metabolites or degraded, confirming the suspected similarities in many aspects of retinoid metabolism in humans compared with rats. Ross and Zolfaghari [44] have suggested that recycling provides an ideal means for the liver to sample constantly and adjust the concentration of retinol available in plasma for peripheral tissues."


"Retinol and retinyl esters as well as enzymes that are able to esterify retinol and to hydrolyze retinyl esters are found in most peripheral tissues [50]. RBP is expressed and secreted from a variety of tissues, including the kidney, lung, heart, spleen, skeletal muscle, adipose tissue, eyes, and testis [5, 42]. Moreover, lipid droplet-containing stellate cells with a similar phenotype as HSCs have been identified in lung, kidney, and intestine, in normal as well as retinoid-fed rats [64]. These cells are reported to accumulate retinyl esters in lipid droplets after the ingestion of large amounts of retinoid [66]. Both the size and number of the lipid droplets are also reported to increase in response to administration of excess dietary retinoid, suggesting that not only HSCs but also extrahepatic stellate cells play an important role in retinoid storage. Such extrahepatic storage of retinyl esters may serve as an important local supply of retinoid for organs which have a large demand for retinoid [13]."


"A number of researchers have reported an association of altered retinoid metabolism and action with hepatic disease development, including hepatic steatosis, hepatic fibrosis, cirrhosis, HCC, and those arising from chronic alcohol consumption. This raises fundamental questions regarding whether these alterations contribute to the pathogenesis of hepatic disease, or whether they are simply secondary changes arising out of the process of disease development.

It has been noted that hepatic retinoid stores are progressively lost upon development of liver disease in human subjects [9]. A significant decrease of hepatic retinoid levels occurs in patients diagnosed with alcohol-induced fatty livers, and patients with alcoholic hepatitis and cirrhosis have much lower hepatic total retinol levels, approximately 10% and 5% respectively, of control subjects.

Two hypotheses have been generated to account for these relations and the loss of retinoid stores from HSCs in hepatic disease [14]. One hypothesis predicts that hepatic retinoid stores play protective roles against disease development [59]. This theory implies that the liver is more susceptible to liver injury and easy to develop hepatic diseases if hepatic retinoid stores are less or absent. However, LRAT knockout mice which completely lack hepatic retinoid stores are not predisposed to developing spontaneous and even chemically induced hepatic fibrosis [16, 167]. The other hypothesis is that dysregulation of hepatic retinoid metabolism induced by liver damage result in a “toxic burst” of transcriptionally active retinoid metabolites which contribute to altered gene expression patterns [104, 168].

Details of how hepatic disease relates to impaired hepatic retinoid homeostasis have not been clearly addressed. Further studies are necessary in order for these findings to be systematically investigated and directly verified."​

It's a great article, worth reading. You'll find other germs in it.
 

Mito

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For those that may be interested.....Ray was asked about Grant Genereux’s books and his Vitamin A theory in last weeks Ask the Herb Doctor radio show. It’s around the 40:00 minute mark.

KMUD: 6/21/2019 Postpartum Depression

Andrew: “...it was devoted to the idea of chronic Vitamin A toxicity as the underlying cause of most of most conditions and I quote ‘The basic premise is that many autoimmune diseases are caused by being in a chronic state of elevated storage levels of retinol, retinoic acid and possibly the carotinoids vitamin A precursor’ do you have any comment about this website’s author and what was your views on the necessity of Vitamin A being are you aware of toxicity in general with this?

Ray: “It is used to make the steroid hormones all of them from cholesterol, thyroid and Vitamin A travel together on a protein in the blood there’re so closely associated, and are taken up by the steroid producing cells together. So you just don’t produce steroid hormones for example without Vitamin A. And it’s used in protein synthesis, making hair and skin and so on will fail if you’re deficient in Vitamin A, mucus membranes thicken and stop producing mucus with a Vitamin A deficiency. Someone sent me those books by a recent author claiming that there is Vitamin A toxicity rampant. I looked through it and couldn’t find any facts at all.”
 

InChristAlone

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For those that may be interested.....Ray was asked about Grant Genereux’s books and his Vitamin A theory in last weeks Ask the Herb Doctor radio show. It’s around the 40:00 minute mark.

KMUD: 6/21/2019 Postpartum Depression

Andrew: “...it was devoted to the idea of chronic Vitamin A toxicity as the underlying cause of most of most conditions and I quote ‘The basic premise is that many autoimmune diseases are caused by being in a chronic state of elevated storage levels of retinol, retinoic acid and possibly the carotinoids vitamin A precursor’ do you have any comment about this website’s author and what was your views on the necessity of Vitamin A being are you aware of toxicity in general with this?

Ray: “It is used to make the steroid hormones all of them from cholesterol, thyroid and Vitamin A travel together on a protein in the blood there’re so closely associated, and are taken up by the steroid producing cells together. So you just don’t produce steroid hormones for example without Vitamin A. And it’s used in protein synthesis, making hair and skin and so on will fail if you’re deficient in Vitamin A, mucus membranes thicken and stop producing mucus with a Vitamin A deficiency. Someone sent me those books by a recent author claiming that there is Vitamin A toxicity rampant. I looked through it and couldn’t find any facts at all.”
But he didn't explain at all why Grant is doing well without it. His blood levels definitely constitute vitamin A deficiency. Why isn't he going going blind and losing all his hair? We already know what the textbook says he basically just repeated that.
 

Collden

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Mito already posted this study showing that steroid synthesis doesn't rely on VA at all.
Vitamin A: not required for adrenal steroidogenesis in rats. - PubMed - NCBI

Also probably not the first time this is posted, but it was news to me that Vitamin C can totally abolish the effects of VA deficiency in rats. Might go some way to explain why humans don't respond to VA deficiency the way rats do?
The relation of diet composition and vitamin C to vitamin A deficiency. - PubMed - NCBI
survival-VC-VAD.png
 

Amazoniac

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For those that may be interested.....Ray was asked about Grant Genereux’s books and his Vitamin A theory in last weeks Ask the Herb Doctor radio show. It’s around the 40:00 minute mark.

KMUD: 6/21/2019 Postpartum Depression

Andrew: “...it was devoted to the idea of chronic Vitamin A toxicity as the underlying cause of most of most conditions and I quote ‘The basic premise is that many autoimmune diseases are caused by being in a chronic state of elevated storage levels of retinol, retinoic acid and possibly the carotinoids vitamin A precursor’ do you have any comment about this website’s author and what was your views on the necessity of Vitamin A being are you aware of toxicity in general with this?

Ray: “It is used to make the steroid hormones all of them from cholesterol, thyroid and Vitamin A travel together on a protein in the blood there’re so closely associated, and are taken up by the steroid producing cells together. So you just don’t produce steroid hormones for example without Vitamin A. And it’s used in protein synthesis, making hair and skin and so on will fail if you’re deficient in Vitamin A, mucus membranes thicken and stop producing mucus with a Vitamin A deficiency. Someone sent me those books by a recent author claiming that there is Vitamin A toxicity rampant. I looked through it and couldn’t find any facts at all.”
Guru, thank you for posting. Let me know in case the Chris thing has been annoying you.
Mito already posted this study showing that steroid synthesis doesn't rely on VA at all.
Vitamin A: not required for adrenal steroidogenesis in rats. - PubMed - NCBI

Also probably not the first time this is posted, but it was news to me that Vitamin C can totally abolish the effects of VA deficiency in rats. Might go some way to explain why humans don't respond to VA deficiency the way rats do?
The relation of diet composition and vitamin C to vitamin A deficiency. - PubMed - NCBI
View attachment 13722
Thank you as well. I don't remember this one.

What concerns is that even in animals that are able to synthesize antidote C, the poison A clearance leaves them scorbutic:

"Some of the earliest symptoms of vitamin A deficiency seen in growing rats are part of a syndrome that responds favorably to the administration of ascorbic acid (Mayer and Krehl, '48b), despite the fact that under normal conditions the rat can synthesize adequate amounts of this vitamin."​

And decreases food efficiency..

"The earliest observed effect of vitamin A deficiency in young growing animals is to decrease the efficiency of utilization of the food consumed, this being defined by the ratio "grams body weight gained per calorie ingested" (Mayer and Krehl, '48a)."​

..which is reflect'd in the table that you uploaded.
As remarkable as the effect of extra antidote C is, survival can't be a good parameter.

upload_2019-6-23_13-28-45.png


"It was also found, as might be expected in the few tests that it was possible to make, that the administration of vitamin C restored the adrenal, liver and blood ascorbic acid values to normal. Although the administration of vitamin A restored liver ascorbic acid to normal (28 mg per 100 gm), and had effected an increase in the adrenal ascorbic acid (average of 275 mg per 100 gm), the blood vitamin C level was still low (8 ug per ml)."​

So values seemed to increase but only to acceptable levels.
 

Mito

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But he didn't explain at all why Grant is doing well without it. His blood levels definitely constitute vitamin A deficiency. Why isn't he going going blind and losing all his hair? We already know what the textbook says he basically just repeated that.
That’s true, Andrew should have asked specific questions about Grant since he has posted blood test results on his website. Same for Danny Roddy and Haidut on the new YouTube channel, Grant’s theory has been brought up as a question, but it quickly gets dismissed without addressing Grant’s blood tests.

We really don’t know what going on with Grant’s health overall because we don’t know him personally and he doesn’t post comprehensive blood tests or hormones tests. He solved his skin problem, but will the extreme low Vitamin A diet cause other serious problems in the coming years? And does the fact that he can’t eat Vitamin A in itself tell us that his health is not optimal?
 

postman

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For those that may be interested.....Ray was asked about Grant Genereux’s books and his Vitamin A theory in last weeks Ask the Herb Doctor radio show. It’s around the 40:00 minute mark.

KMUD: 6/21/2019 Postpartum Depression

Andrew: “...it was devoted to the idea of chronic Vitamin A toxicity as the underlying cause of most of most conditions and I quote ‘The basic premise is that many autoimmune diseases are caused by being in a chronic state of elevated storage levels of retinol, retinoic acid and possibly the carotinoids vitamin A precursor’ do you have any comment about this website’s author and what was your views on the necessity of Vitamin A being are you aware of toxicity in general with this?

Ray: “It is used to make the steroid hormones all of them from cholesterol, thyroid and Vitamin A travel together on a protein in the blood there’re so closely associated, and are taken up by the steroid producing cells together. So you just don’t produce steroid hormones for example without Vitamin A. And it’s used in protein synthesis, making hair and skin and so on will fail if you’re deficient in Vitamin A, mucus membranes thicken and stop producing mucus with a Vitamin A deficiency. Someone sent me those books by a recent author claiming that there is Vitamin A toxicity rampant. I looked through it and couldn’t find any facts at all.”
I doubt he will ever admit that VA intake can cause such horrible symptoms even at very low doses, since it is one of his principal recommendations.
 

InChristAlone

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That’s true, Andrew should have asked specific questions about Grant since he has posted blood test results on his website. Same for Danny Roddy and Haidut on the new YouTube channel, Grant’s theory has been brought up as a question, but it quickly gets dismissed without addressing Grant’s blood tests.

We really don’t know what going on with Grant’s health overall because we don’t know him personally and he doesn’t post comprehensive blood tests or hormones tests. He solved his skin problem, but will the extreme low Vitamin A diet cause other serious problems in the coming years? And does the fact that he can’t eat Vitamin A in itself tell us that his health is not optimal?
Yeah we can't know for sure unless he posted a full work up, but he has posted quite a few blood tests. Thing is if we can believe his back story he claims his kidneys were failing before the diet, the prognosis wasn't good. Plus the severe eczema that can seriously effect your quality of life. So either way he seems to have gained back a quality of life he didn't have before.
 

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