Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Tarmander]

This may be a little controversial but i think it's worth discussing. Depending on how risk averse you are, this may sound either crazy or brilliant.

One of the big issues as i understand it is that as the liver releases stored Poisonal et al. in bile, it can be reabsorbed at a fairly high rate. It would make sense then to use a strong purgative that flushes out the liver, gallbladder stomach etc. wouldn't it? Such a purgative exists and it is associated with healing blindness, depression, fatigue, addiction and chronic illness. Blindness is the one that really catches my attention.

Kambo is used in the amazon as a medicine and as a hunting aid. The secretions from the skin of the frog Phyllomedusa bicolor are collected and dried on flat pieces of wood. The person being treated usually drinks large quantities of water (multiple litres) very quicky before several small round burn mark are made with a stick on the skin of the shoulder or ankle. the frog secretion is then applied to the burn mark. This makes you vomit with great force. The intensity of the purge depends largely on the quantity of venom used and the number of burns. traditionally 1-4 burns were made, as with most things in the west people have taken this to the extreme with some people apply 20+ burns, sometimes purging is done back to back to back...

Very quickly your body becomes hot and flushed and the face swells right up. the stomach, gall bladder and liver purge a huge amount of bile and whatever else into the huge amount of water sitting in the stomach and you vomit pretty violently for about 15 minutes max. then you feel pretty great! The color of the vomit is usually florescent yellow/green though many people take it far enough to produce orange and even black vomit. THE LIVER REALLY DOES PURGE INTO THE STOMACH AND INTESTINES. and in a significant way too. Minimal reabsorption. even less with charcoal beforehand.

Could the miraculous healing effects of Kambo be attributed to it's detoxification of poisonal and associates? I think so. There are some pretty powerful opiates and other things in the venom that undoubtedly have an impact, but, if people really are recovering their eyesight from concurrent sessions lasting a week or two, then I think there is something more going on. Kambo doesn't get you high but whatever you do don't ingest it or put it on any mucous membrane. the chemicals in it will not play nicely with your brain using it that way. it's strictly a lymphatic thing.

I've done Kambo quite a few times, as far as I know it's VERY SAFE and I've not heard of anyone dying etc. from it despite the massive immune response the body has to it. I'm not sure what the long term effects might be after say a decade of use, though I'm fairly confident in it's safety for most people and it has been used in the amazon for a long long time. The hype around ceremonies is bull****, it's easy to buy and administer yourself, the only downside is your face will be very swollen for a day or so depending on how many burns you administer. for some people it may not swell at all. The feeling immediately after the purge is awesome, relief, accomplishment, adrenaline. the day of and day after I usually experience a bit of fatigue. From there the subsequent week is AWESOME. There really is something powerful about going through with it all and overcoming the discomfort. I usualy have a big smile on my face right before it all comes out. it's great.



The question is, could a weeks worth of kambo achieve the same result as 6months+ of diet, reabsorption and detox symptoms? would it be easier on the body to go through a few purges, or all that reabsorption and detoxification? obviously not everyone is going to jump at the idea of burning frog poion into their skin and throwing their guts up however for some people it may be the perfect solution to years of detox symptoms. You would probably want to use kambo daily or every second day for a week or two to really see if it can make a significant impact on detox. Frog face is a real problem, you wouldn't want to be spending a lot of time in public.. if you used it at night you might get away with it the next morning. I would recommend using activated charcoal beforehand as the liver purges into the small intestine aswell as the stomach. last time I used it I got a nasty ulcer, fatigue etc. the next day. I'm presuming my liver dumped a lot of poisonal into my small intestine, it sure felt like it.

You can find lots of testimonials and experiences on this forum
Kambo - Index



I am not endorsing kambo, it might be another tool in the tool belt, who knows. It's worth mentioning.
Grant's response was that it's obviously a toxin and it's risky; which is fair. sometimes desperate times call for desperate measures. Risk aversion right..

When you go through something stressful like this, it is impossible to figure out what is actually good for you and what is good feelings from stress induced euphoria.

One thing I have realized from my many experiments is that feeling really good really fast is generally not a good sign...slow improvement is a much better sign of something healthy. Now if you have some big experience and feel great 12 months later and you haven't had to go through some purge since...that might be something.

 

[Blossom]

@tankasnowgod and anyone else interested, I tried some preformed A as discussed earlier in the thread and wanted to report my experience. I also wanted @tankasnowgod to know my latitude is 39. :)
I’m at a little over 9 months on low A so I decided to try some chicken liver the other day. I ate 2 tbsp. of organic chicken liver which equals 100% of my RDA per cronometer (2332 IU). I was actually surprised to see that such a small amount equaled my recommended daily intake!

I ate it in the late afternoon and felt pretty good for the remainder of the day besides noticing scratchy dry eyes that evening. I woke up during the night but that’s something that still happens occasionally so I’m not sure it’s related. I woke up feeling in a remarkably good mood which was nice. I didn’t have my normal morning bowel movement that day or the next and also noticed some minor pain in my intestines which reminds me of times when I’ve lowered my serotonin excessively. My skin became slightly red and irritated and had more stiffness and aches than I usually do. Everything seems back to normal within 2 days. I plan to continue on low A for now.

 

[Dolomite]

Thanks, @Blossom , for your experiment with the chicken liver. I will be eating at my sister’s house this weekend and I know the food will not be low A. I am glad to know it seemed to only take two days to recover.

 

[Elchupanibrain]

@Janelle525 the liver flush from doc sutter sounds interesting. there are recipes including apple cider 3 days prior the flush to soften any gallstones. and they add phosphoric acid to the cider. i think this will be harsh for tooth enamel and the whole body. the recipe from your link says just lemon juice, olive oil and coke 3h after the last meal. What do you think about this?

 

[Blossom]

Thanks, @Blossom , for your experiment with the chicken liver. I will be eating at my sister’s house this weekend and I know the food will not be low A. I am glad to know it seemed to only take two days to recover.

I hope it goes well for you this weekend. I’m taking food to my family gathering. Everyone is already used to me doing that because of my celiac. The only options on the menu that are GF are carrots and ham. :)

 

[InChristAlone]

@Janelle525 the liver flush from doc sutter sounds interesting. there are recipes including apple cider 3 days prior the flush to soften any gallstones. and they add phosphoric acid to the cider. i think this will be harsh for tooth enamel and the whole body. the recipe from your link says just lemon juice, olive oil and coke 3h after the last meal. What do you think about this?

Yeah, I think apple juice that has malic acid would be helpful leading up to that's what I used to do. I already drink 1-2 cokes a day so I may not even have much to get out haha!

Here is the instructions: Sutter Coke flush: mix 4 oz. organic olive oil, 4 oz. defizzed Coca Cola Classic, 2 oz. fresh squeezed lemon. Stir, don’t shake, lay on right side ½ hour, on left side for 15 min., and on back for 15 minutes.

I think it's worth it to try. I have heard of stones getting stuck because of liver flushes so if any strange pain starts up maybe immediately take the epsom salts.

 

[Dolomite]

For some reason I get a lot of flak from this sister about gluten free and no lactose @Blossom. So I am not going to make a big deal about low a eating. I plan to take plenty of other items to fill up on so I won’t have to eat much of anything questionable. She would benefit from low a eating but I doubt if I could convince her. I would love to share this theory with a lot of my family but I don’t know if they could handle the change. They aren’t health nuts like me. But they are of an age where it is catching up to them in one form or another.

 

[Blossom]

For some reason I get a lot of flak from this sister about gluten free and no lactose @Blossom. So I am not going to make a big deal about low a eating. I plan to take plenty of other items to fill up on so I won’t have to eat much of anything questionable. She would benefit from low a eating but I doubt if I could convince her. I would love to share this theory with a lot of my family but I don’t know if they could handle the change. They aren’t health nuts like me. But they are of an age where it is catching up to them in one form or another.

I can relate. I have almost the same story with my family. I told my daughter, husband and mother-in-law early on but I haven't talked about it anymore. One time I went through a phase after my celiac diagnosis where I started eating gluten again because it was hard to cope with the GF diet and an unsupportive (even adversarial) attitude from my family and they witnessed how sick I became over the following year. When I finally decided I had to go back on gluten free they finally respected how I need to eat to maintain my health and things have been about 75% better. I'm sure there are several of them who could benefit from some changes but we no longer talk much about diet and food choices and just agree to respect each other. :/

 

[Amazoniac]

@tankasnowgod and anyone else interested, I tried some preformed A as discussed earlier in the thread and wanted to report my experience. I also wanted @tankasnowgod to know my latitude is 39. :)
I’m at a little over 9 months on low A so I decided to try some chicken liver the other day. I ate 2 tbsp. of organic chicken liver which equals 100% of my RDA per cronometer (2332 IU). I was actually surprised to see that such a small amount equaled my recommended daily intake!

I ate it in the late afternoon and felt pretty good for the remainder of the day besides noticing scratchy dry eyes that evening. I woke up during the night but that’s something that still happens occasionally so I’m not sure it’s related. I woke up feeling in a remarkably good mood which was nice. I didn’t have my normal morning bowel movement that day or the next and also noticed some minor pain in my intestines which reminds me of times when I’ve lowered my serotonin excessively. My skin became slightly red and irritated and had more stiffness and aches than I usually do. Everything seems back to normal within 2 days. I plan to continue on low A for now.

Props for the willingness to experiment.

Your case doesn't seem to involve the liver, it might be a chronic infection of the intestine. Why don't you consider a fecal transplant?

- Serendipity in Refractory Celiac Disease: Full Recovery of Duodenal Villi and Clinical Symptoms after Fecal Microbiota Transfer​

I mean it (something more drastic) because what you're doing is putting an immune issue in remission by restricting poison/"vitamin" A. There's the whole premise that it's not essential for people to be at ease carrying on with this. The positive effect afterwards (in spite of the negative consequences from inflammation) may or may not had beened from it, but if it was, it suggests that you have a dilemma on hands in the body. I don't know if defatted liver powders retain toxins, but they could help to discern.

Is there a threshold for you to feel worse or is it a continuum with the higher the dose, the worse the effect?

There might be other stuff that could address the cause, such as Koch's reagents or some obscure stuff that only burtlan knows.

I don't think that applying it topically would make a difference for you since a significant dose will induce a release from liver, increase its metabolism throughout the body, boosting immunity and there might be an attempt to fix the problematic tissue; but without success it leads to chronic inflammation and tissue atrophy followed by malabsorption (fat-soluble vitamins, cobalamin, folate, calcium, magnesium, and so on).

If none of this interests you or works, it's worth investigating what's the safest way to obtain greater doses at once (route, dose, form, frequency) to replenish some of the stores without having to endure daily inflammation. No need to implement it, just having the option.

 

[Blossom]

Props for the willingness to experiment.

Your case doesn't seem to involve the liver, it might be a chronic infection of the intestine. Why don't you consider a fecal transplant?

- Serendipity in Refractory Celiac Disease: Full Recovery of Duodenal Villi and Clinical Symptoms after Fecal Microbiota Transfer​

I mean it (something more drastic) because what you're doing is putting an immune issue in remission by restricting poison/"vitamin" A. There's the whole premise that it's not essential for people to be at ease carrying on with this. The positive effect afterwards (in spite of the negative consequences from inflammation) may or may not had beened from it, but if it was, it suggests that you have a dilemma on hands in the body.

I don't know if defatted liver powders retain toxins, but what about trying them as an attempt to eliminate the confounder above? Also, is there a threshold for you to feel worse or is it a continuum with the higher the dose, the worse the effect?

There might be other stuff that could address the cause, such as Koch's reagents or some obscure stuff that only burtlan knows.

I don't think that applying it topically would make a difference for you since a significant dose will induce a release from liver, increase its metabolism throughout the body, boosting immunity and there might be an attempt to fix the problematic tissue; but without success it leads to chronic inflammation and tissue atrophy followed by malabsorption (fat-soluble vitamins, cobalamin, folate, calcium, magnesium, and so on).

If none of this interests you or works, it's worth investigating what's the safest way to obtain greater doses at once (route, dose, form, frequency) to replenish some of the stores without having to endure daily inflammation. No need to implement it, just having the option.

Thanks, I really appreciate your response. I will think on all of this for a bit.

 

[Amazoniac]

Thanks, I really appreciate your response. I will think on all of this for a bit.

As an example, if brutal doses overwhelm the capability to process poison A right, you can consume multiple smaller servings of liver for a day (if you need it, you'll know it and it won't be disgusting) along with enough of protective nutrients, and this should prevent you from reaching concerning levels.

 

[Amazoniac]

In the depletion experiment by Sauberlich and friends, the maximum and minimum utilization rates at the beginning were 7000 and 3700 IU/d for two guys. At the end of the experiment (when problems were appearing), a subject was using as little as 160 IU/d from stores. So you can tell how the RDA can be inadequate for some and that the approach above might only serve to avoid critical levels depending on state and frequency.

 

[Blossom]

As an example, if brutal doses overwhelm the capability to process poison A right, you can consume multiple smaller servings of liver for a day (if you need it, you'll know it and it won't be disgusting) along with enough of protective nutrients, and this should prevent you from depleting to concerning levels.

The first bite tasted fine and the second and third not as good but not yet horrible. Fecal transplants are not approved in my country unless you have c-diff so I’d probably have to leave the US to have it done.

 

[Amazoniac]

The first bite tasted fine and the second and third not as good but not yet horrible. Fecal transplants are not approved in my country unless you have c-diff so I’d probably have to leave the US to have it done.

I lied. I just realized that the next meals of such approach could taste repulsive because the effects might be kicking in.
The fecal transplant is not guaranteed either, just a possibility.

 

[Blossom]

I lied. I just realized that the next meals of such approach could taste repulsive because the effects might be kicking in.
The fecal transplant is not guaranteed either, just a possibility.

It might be worth it to periodically have some A to taste and as tolerated to deplete at a slower rate. I don’t know...

I know I do need to be able to function in my daily life at the moment though.

I’d consider a fecal transplant if it was a guarantee I could eat more freely. I’d have to save up funds for a while but I’m not opposed to the idea. I’m also not convinced and I’m on a tight budget so I’m probably looking at a couple years before it would even be feasible. Maybe it will be available in the USA by then or I could come visit you in Uganda.

I appreciate your input!

 

[Blossom]

In the depletion experiment by Sauberlich and friends, the maximum and minimum utilization rates at the beginning were 7000 and 3700 IU/d for two guys. At the end of the experiment (when problems were appearing), a subject was using as little as 160 IU/d from stores. So you can tell how the RDA can be inadequate for some and that the approach above might only serve to avoid critical levels depending on state and frequency.

It looks like you can buy a couple different brands of desiccated liver capsules and get about 850 IU of A per capsule. That seems about as low a you can get as far as I can tell without going for an isolated retinol palimate, acetate or some types of fish liver oil all of which I'd never even consider taking again based on my past experience. If I ever feel like having some A again I'll probably eat chicken liver just to take advantage of the feedback from my taste buds. Most days I'm under 100 IU.

 

[Yi at LDT]

I didn't realise the amount of carotenoids in 'animal sources'. I wonder if binding proteins etc. make a difference?

My doubts about VA seem to coincide with detox cycles..

 

[somuch4food]

I didn't realise the amount of carotenoids in 'animal sources'. I wonder if binding proteins etc. make a difference?

My doubts about VA seem to coincide with detox cycles..

Have you tried an animal source like liver or dairy? You would be set. I'm not forcing, but doubts can play tricks on you.

I personnally have problems with many colored fruits and vegetables, but I'm fine with liver or dairy.

 

[Yi at LDT]

I havn't as of yet, though I was planning on having some raw eggs yesterday. Seeing the content of lutein zeaxanthin in eggs etc. is a little surprising and concerning but I'll definitely give it a go. I doubt I will ever eat dairy again with the exception of butter. I never thought I would say that. I really loved my raw milk back when I drank it, it was almost intoxicating. No, it was intoxicating! Since cutting it out I can't tolerate even small amounts so I would have to make a real effort to get back on it. The reaction would skew my results, I'm sure. For calcium I'm taking calcium hydroxyapetite/bone meal. I am super happy with it so far and put it above all other sources. The only concern is lead content however I have a lot of faith in humic and fulvic acids (purblack specifically) ability to deal with heavy metals and the product is sourced from young cow's.

I would have to buy lamb liver from a supermarket or use a powder to test retinol. I'm a bit concerned about oxidation with powders. I bought some Now liver powder a while back and noticed a disclaimer stating that it was not a significant source of Vitamin A or B12. There could be a few reasons for this though I am wondering if one of them is oxidation of retinol. I really don't like liver, but, I will do it!

Another thing to consider is whether the shear reduction in diversity of plant toxins in general (there are lots of them) might be the cause of improvement. I'm sure it contributes though it doesn't explain why I turned into a zombie after taking Bixin. The general Peat diet also isn't full of diversity of plants so probably not. Maybe there is some other unknown chemical that coincides with Carotenoids? I doubt it but it's possible.

Carnivore is definitely the close sibling of low VA. Those guys are chalking it up to what, low fiber, low plant toxins and saturated fats? It would be interesting to see some carnivore guys transition to low VA and see the results. It's interesting to hear of people recovering from whatever problems from eating lots of raw eggs and dairy. of course they are nutrient dense and have their merit, maybe the people who benefit just arn't that sick and havn't maxed their livers etc. Maybe the binding proteins and other chemicals in animal sources make all the difference.

For me at the moment I think I need to acknowledge that there are holes and flaws in Grant's books, along with brilliance. There are also quite a few contradicting studies out there. I think Peoples lived long term experience and possible future research is really going to play the biggest role in 'proving' all of this. I didn't fully fully realise that before and it's got me a little nervous putting my face to it on YouTube though I absolutely think Grant's theory deserves all the exposure in the world. Nervous and honored.

It would be great to be have peoples own progress logs posted either here or on Grant's website for people to see. For me, as others have also reported, there have been lots of ups and downs though the trend is strongly upwards.


Anyone using Taurine?

 

[Amazoniac]

I didn't realise the amount of carotenoids in 'animal sources'. I wonder if binding proteins etc. make a difference?

My doubts about VA seem to coincide with detox cycles..

I have some doubts about the meaning of these cycles. They sound more like markers of significant changes in immune patterns, slowing down of utilization rate and reprioritizing it, or perhaps induction of some deficiencies depending on the stage that it happens.

From 4 wealthy subjects.
The depleting phase stopped before the development of more serious complications in each case.

Spoiler: Running wheels

I visited your Youtube channel and it got me thinking that rodent wheels aren't made with much consideration to the wheel-being of the animals. The first problem is that the animal tends to move a bit forward to get it going (example). There's an italian treadmill that induces the person to use it this way for not requiring electricity. Now if that's already clumpsy for a human, imagine what it's like for a quadripedal to run on a surface that's markedly arched.

Treadmills and wheels aren't much different after all:

Spoiler

Ray Peat Painterly Science Art Gallery

The contriction is bizarre because right after propulsion with the lower limbs the animal has to prevent its crash on the other side with the upper limbs all while keeping the motion. It's quite unusual to be running on surfaces like this.

Spoiler: GoDestroyPet

This is so bad that some of them have their spine arched along with the wheel. Others do the opposite with their spine if they have space as an attempt to shorten the upper and lower limb distance to minimize this issues by occupying less area when running. If you open a slow-motion video, you'll realize that the movement isn't ample as it should be.

The issue only gets worse the smaller the wheel is for the size of the rodent, so buying the biggest one possible is worth it: the surface will end up similar to the treadmill above.

This problem is very common and is easy to improve it.

It might be worth it to periodically have some A to taste and as tolerated to deplete at a slower rate. I don’t know...

I know I do need to be able to function in my daily life at the moment though.

I’d consider a fecal transplant if it was a guarantee I could eat more freely. I’d have to save up funds for a while but I’m not opposed to the idea. I’m also not convinced and I’m on a tight budget so I’m probably looking at a couple years before it would even be feasible. Maybe it will be available in the USA by then or I could come visit you in Uganda.

I appreciate your input!

The problem is if a food elicits inflammation as it's digested, it will signal that it's not good to have more of it even if you need the nutrients, so the craving before the first meal would probably be more reliable. I don't think it's nice to ignore this, it's just that it might not be guiding you based on needs.

Even though the effects can be local, there might be some systemic reflect and you might be able to detect changes in pH or active venom D in blood before and after poison A. Have you thoughted about measuring these on your next reintroductions? Hasing noticed dry eyes suggests that it generalizes and that such things might be possible.

It was also posted on the Poisonil thread that dry eyes can be a symptom of low venom D, so the aberrant poisonoic acid response can be inducing a disproportional amount of them in tissues. Perhaps it's a reflect of what's happening with other mucosal barriers such as the surface of the intestine.

The artificial way of mitigating this issue in case some of you try the occasional repletion days is through foods that can make up for the compromised mucus production, aloe vera being one of them. Some fruits from the Annona family can do the same, but not all because there are ones that aren't gelatinous or are too sweet (extremely high fructose).

Spoiler

Source: the internet.

Calcium is supposed to curb inflammation, but it's probable that when there's too much of it in the intestines, it signals lowering of killcitriol (schultz, 2019) further (than what poisonoic acid is already antagonizing). Venom D in theory should be balancing and opposing the inflammatory mediators that poisonoic acid elevates, so this bi-losing can't be good. Perhaps it's better to have more venom D with these meals and less calcium, but I'm not sure.

It looks like you can buy a couple different brands of desiccated liver capsules and get about 850 IU of A per capsule. That seems about as low a you can get as far as I can tell without going for an isolated retinol palimate, acetate or some types of fish liver oil all of which I'd never even consider taking again based on my past experience. If I ever feel like having some A again I'll probably eat chicken liver just to take advantage of the feedback from my taste buds. Most days I'm under 100 IU.

If you or anyone else is interested in trying defatted liver powders, here are more vendors that might be able to estimate how toxinless (Wich, 2008-2019) their product is:
- Gerson Supplies: Supplements & Medications | Gerson Institute