Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Blossom]

Great post @raypeatclips.

Peat has said something to the effect of "everything is dangerous when you are hypothyroid."
I'd go so far as to say everything is dangerous when you're deficient in D.

I'm glad Grant is feeling better but those cholesterol labs seem a bit low. I also feel it's a bit misguided to ignore the role of vitamin D altogether but that's just my opinion.

 

[Travis]

[...] And another relevant snippet from Grant:

"The next suspicious aspect in the evolution of the deficiency theory was that there were other early researchers who were showing that just having adequate amounts of dietary fats, and especially that of butter fat, could prevent and reverse the same “xerophthalmia” disease conditions of the eye.​

There is a lot more that can be said about this [...]

An yet, retinol also exists as triglyceride esters. Grant ostensibly knows this fact, yet contradicts his general outline with the following implication:

'...researchers who were showing that just having adequate amounts of dietary fats, and especially that of butter fat, could prevent and reverse... ―Grant​

If butter triglygerides—and not those of coconut, for instance—had been more effective at reversing xerophthalmia, this could only strengthen the assumption that it is truly a retinoid-deficiency symptom.

It is very time-consuming to separate individual trigylcerides because of their sheer multiplicity. Consider a triglyceride being randomly synthesized from a pool of ten fatty acids: e.g. lauric, palmitic, stearic, capric, caproic, caprylic, linoleic, α-linolenic, γ-linelenic, and arachidonic. This process would yield 10³ possible combinations. Yet you will note that this would yield an array of identical mirror images, so the probability of symmetrical XYX forms occurring must be subtracted as well as one half the expected occurrence of all reflection pairs of form XYZ:ZYX. Assuming an infinite fatty acid pool size—e.g. being drunk at Chipotle—this would yield 450 distinct triglycerides possible:

10³ − (10 × 9) − (¹⁄₂ × 10!/7!) = 450​

Although molecularly distinct: many of these tryglycerides have near-identical solubility properties, making chromatographic coelutions a common occurrence. Do you think Grant supposes that a classic biochemist would have taken the considerable effort necessary to separate all retinol esters from butter fat? especially when considering the availability and similarity of retinol-free coconut oil?

 

[sunraiser]

"A significant amount of free (unesterified) retinol may circulate when vitamin A is consumed without dietary fatty acids, which leads to excessive production of retinoic acid."

This, in my opinion, is the real crux of the matter.

The question is - what happens to retinol (and perhaps supplemental vitamin D) when not able to be properly uptaken by the body? The more likely condition to cause this is insufficient bile production. I have been musing on this for quite a while now.

From my own experiences I found fat soluble supplements to have perhaps a vaguely positive effect temporarily and then a negative effect (like causing dandruff or dry lips), but all in all nothing really profound or particularly noticable. The negative symptoms show they're impacting SOME mechanism - my guess is that calcium, magnesium and maybe zinc and copper are used to help store or dispose of the unusable fat solubles.

After doing liver flushes, all of a sudden fat solubles start to have a PROFOUND impact. So - increasing bile flow via liver flushing effectively means fat solubles can once again be uptaken.

With a view towards vitamin A toxicity, it's entirely possibly that a hypothyroid state from a long term zinc deficiency (which is quite common) combined with the presence of a fair amount of retinol intake could cause problems. B2 deficiency is also quite common; zinc and b2 are responsible for "activating" b6 so it can be used to make bile salts (via taurine). This means a long term zinc deficiency (and or b2 deficiency - and a cascade of other cofactors) will eventually create b6 and therefore taurine deficiency, which means fat solubles can't be properly uptaken via bile. Once you've developed candida or fungal overgrowth due to unbound iron and copper (via low ceruloplasmin due to aforementioned deficiencies) you'll no longer be able to meet your taurine needs via diet, or even get close to those levels. Vitamin D from sunshine MIGHT be the relief protocol for this if it's not too severe (as taurine needs seem to be far lower when replete in vitamin D via sun), but it's possible if you've really OD'd on retinol via liver while having poor bile production you might need a good deal of taurine.

I would say this is where retinol might cause rather a lot of problems, but I'm not entirely sure of the mechanisms behind why it's such an issue. I'm experimenting with this at the moment but I think taurine supplementation combined with sunshine and movement is probably key in resolving this. Perhaps the taurine allows you to "use" the stored retinol, but that means taking a degree of care with taurine dosage as too much vitamin A at one time might increase calcium needs too much, for example.

The important point to mention is that vitamin A will once again become necessary once you've restored bile production and liver function (and probably some degree of vitamin D status via sunshine). It could also explain the issues many run into when forcing down paleo foods and ignoring cravings.

That's my current train of thought - I'll expand once I've experimented a little further!

 

[franko]

Grant has just released his new (free) ebook on Breast Cancer.

Here is the link to the blog post: Breast Cancer

Here is the introduction:

"While doing the background investigation for my two earlier e-books, I often saw similarities between many of the aspects and characteristics of the chronic diseases and those of cancers. It was especially so for breast cancer. Thus, I’ve looked at the breast cancer topic a bit more. It has by no means been an exhaustive investigation. However, it has led me to two conclusions.

1. Breast Cancer is caused by a poisoning.
2. The primary causal toxin responsible for that poisoning is vitamin A.

I’m presenting this theory in a new e-book.

I’ve tried to keep this e-book short. But, I think there is still ample amounts of evidence presented in it to sufficiently back up the above conclusions. As with my other e-books, this one is free. So, please download this e-book, and feel free to share it with anyone you want. All I ask for in return is that you comment on it as you see fit."​

 

[raypeatclips]

I have offered to pay for Grant Genereux to have a vitamin D blood test. I am not sure what sort of character he is, so on the off chance he deletes my comment, I will post what I said to him here:

"
How can you claim your disease has nothing to do with Vitamin D deficiency, when you do not have a blood test telling us what your vitamin D levels are?

From what you have told me it is everything to do with a vitamin D deficiency, no supplementation, very little sunlight, it is clear to me you could be very vitamin D deficient, and it seems quite obvious that someone that is vitamin D deficient will eventually react to even smaller amounts of vitamin A.

I believe your condition is do to with the ratio of vitamin D and vitamin A. When you are deficient in D, you react to smaller and smaller amounts of A. Currently you have cleared your body of A, it is no longer reacting, but you are still D deficient. If you are replete in vitamin D, you would be able to handle reasonable amounts of vitamin A like a normal person can, and does every single day. Yes you have recovered by removing vitamin A, because in a vitamin D deficiency, the body reacts to excess vitamin A.

Every condition you talk about on here as a “vitamin A excess” is linked elsewhere with vitamin D deficiency. There are also many forum posts on these issues where people have fixed their issues by resolving a vitamin D deficiency, without having to excessively monitor their vitamin A levels.

Avoiding fixing a vitamin D deficiency would be incredibly detrimental to your long term health.

I will bet money that you are vitamin D deficient.

If you can find a reasonably priced vitamin D home blood test online, I will genuinely send you the money to cover the cost (via paypal) On the condition that you post your results online, send me the money back if your results show you are deficient, as described by the Vitamin D council (<40 ng/ml).

You could then work to improve your vitamin D levels, by whichever means you feel comfortable with. I honestly believe you have a vitamin D deficiency which is causing all these symptoms, and would love for you to discover this, and then become healthier by fixing the issue. If you do end up having good vitamin D levels, then it adds weight to your vitamin A toxicity theory. I am being completely serious about this and would love for you to take me up on the offer."

 

[Blossom]

I have offered to pay for Grant Genereux to have a vitamin D blood test. I am not sure what sort of character he is, so on the off chance he deletes my comment, I will post what I said to him here:

"
How can you claim your disease has nothing to do with Vitamin D deficiency, when you do not have a blood test telling us what your vitamin D levels are?

From what you have told me it is everything to do with a vitamin D deficiency, no supplementation, very little sunlight, it is clear to me you could be very vitamin D deficient, and it seems quite obvious that someone that is vitamin D deficient will eventually react to even smaller amounts of vitamin A.

I believe your condition is do to with the ratio of vitamin D and vitamin A. When you are deficient in D, you react to smaller and smaller amounts of A. Currently you have cleared your body of A, it is no longer reacting, but you are still D deficient. If you are replete in vitamin D, you would be able to handle reasonable amounts of vitamin A like a normal person can, and does every single day. Yes you have recovered by removing vitamin A, because in a vitamin D deficiency, the body reacts to excess vitamin A.

Every condition you talk about on here as a “vitamin A excess” is linked elsewhere with vitamin D deficiency. There are also many forum posts on these issues where people have fixed their issues by resolving a vitamin D deficiency, without having to excessively monitor their vitamin A levels.

Avoiding fixing a vitamin D deficiency would be incredibly detrimental to your long term health.

I will bet money that you are vitamin D deficient.

If you can find a reasonably priced vitamin D home blood test online, I will genuinely send you the money to cover the cost (via paypal) On the condition that you post your results online, send me the money back if your results show you are deficient, as described by the Vitamin D council (<40 ng/ml).

You could then work to improve your vitamin D levels, by whichever means you feel comfortable with. I honestly believe you have a vitamin D deficiency which is causing all these symptoms, and would love for you to discover this, and then become healthier by fixing the issue. If you do end up having good vitamin D levels, then it adds weight to your vitamin A toxicity theory. I am being completely serious about this and would love for you to take me up on the offer."

I'm interested to see if he takes you up on this offer. I wonder if he knows about Dr. Coimbra's work with autoimmune disease?

 

[raypeatclips]

I'm interested to see if he takes you up on this offer. I wonder if he knows about Dr. Coimbra's work with autoimmune disease?

I really hope he does. Why not post them as a comment on his blog? He seems pretty good at replying to all the comments on there.

 

[Blossom]

I really hope he does. Why not post them as a comment on his blog? He seems pretty good at replying to all the comments on there.

Good idea. I never looked through the comments section before.

 

[Blossom]

I wonder if the Dan from Chicago that recommended a light to Grant is our @Dan Wich? I'm sure there are probably lots of Dans in Chicago but it looks like something our Dan would know about.

 

[Travis]

Most vitamins are enzymatic cofactors derived from food, yet vitamins A & D are unique exceptions in that they act on nuclear receptors. These two'vitamins' induce transcription and protein expression in the cell, and are thus denoted 'vitamin–hormones' by some. The amounts of vitamin D found in every natural food, except fish liver oil, are insignificant compared to what we naturally produce endogenously via ultraviolet light. In this respect: vitamin D is analogous to the non-vitamins tetrahydrobiopterin and lipoic acid, two essential cofactors synthesized entirely de novo also having only minor contributions from food. Niacin, folic acid, and vitamin D are what could be considered vitamin misnomers, or three vitamins that technically aren't:

Although folic acid is found in trace amounts in many foods, it is always outnumbered 20∶1 by reduced folates—with (6S)-methyltetrahydrofolate accounting for the majority. Folic acid is entirely inactive in every way, and upon enzymatic reduction to a more active form most will actually become inactive & inhibitory (6R)-dihydrofolate. American food charts universally denote vitamin B₉ as 'folic acid,' yet this is ostensibly on account that it's the most-easily synthesised. Vitamin B₉ is more synonymous with '(6S)-reduced folates.'

Niacin is routinely synthesized via tryptophan in the body, lowering the total amount that can become serotonin & melatonin. Since tryptophan is already listed as an 'essential' amino acid, considering also niacin as such is redundant.

 

[Dan W]

I wonder if the Dan from Chicago that recommended a light to Grant is our @Dan Wich?

Nope, not me.

 

[Blossom]

Nope, not me.

Looks like there's another tech savvy Dan in Chicago!

 

[dbh25]

I have offered to pay for Grant Genereux to have a vitamin D blood test

Would be interesting to see Vitamin D, A & K levels

 

[raypeatclips]

Would be interesting to see Vitamin D, A & K levels

It would, A and K are more specialised blood tests though, and much more expensive, so I'm not paying for them lol. Vit D blood tests are very popular so much cheaper. :)

 

[raypeatclips]

Grant replied saying he is planning on getting vitamin D blood tests at some point, and will post them. Fair enough to him, I hope he follows through with it.

 

[Blossom]

Grant replied saying he is planning on getting vitamin D blood tests at some point, and will post them. Fair enough to him, I hope he follows through with it.

He seems genuine. Genuine doesn't necessarily mean correct of course but the fact that he replied and plans on testing his D is promising. I hope he does the test and shares his results too @raypeatclips.
In his most recent ebook he said if he were able to do his A detox over again with what he's learned he would use activated charcoal, possibly butter or ghee (despite the small A content) to emulsify the A, donate blood and exercise regularly. He did mention the problem of US butter being made from fortified dairy. Kalona supernatural has non fortified and non homogenized dairy for anyone in the US who is interested.

 

[franko]

I have offered to pay for Grant Genereux to have a vitamin D blood test. I am not sure what sort of character he is, so on the off chance he deletes my comment, I will post what I said to him here:

"
How can you claim your disease has nothing to do with Vitamin D deficiency, when you do not have a blood test telling us what your vitamin D levels are?

From what you have told me it is everything to do with a vitamin D deficiency, no supplementation, very little sunlight, it is clear to me you could be very vitamin D deficient, and it seems quite obvious that someone that is vitamin D deficient will eventually react to even smaller amounts of vitamin A.

I believe your condition is do to with the ratio of vitamin D and vitamin A. When you are deficient in D, you react to smaller and smaller amounts of A. Currently you have cleared your body of A, it is no longer reacting, but you are still D deficient. If you are replete in vitamin D, you would be able to handle reasonable amounts of vitamin A like a normal person can, and does every single day. Yes you have recovered by removing vitamin A, because in a vitamin D deficiency, the body reacts to excess vitamin A.

Every condition you talk about on here as a “vitamin A excess” is linked elsewhere with vitamin D deficiency. There are also many forum posts on these issues where people have fixed their issues by resolving a vitamin D deficiency, without having to excessively monitor their vitamin A levels.

Avoiding fixing a vitamin D deficiency would be incredibly detrimental to your long term health.

I will bet money that you are vitamin D deficient.

If you can find a reasonably priced vitamin D home blood test online, I will genuinely send you the money to cover the cost (via paypal) On the condition that you post your results online, send me the money back if your results show you are deficient, as described by the Vitamin D council (<40 ng/ml).

You could then work to improve your vitamin D levels, by whichever means you feel comfortable with. I honestly believe you have a vitamin D deficiency which is causing all these symptoms, and would love for you to discover this, and then become healthier by fixing the issue. If you do end up having good vitamin D levels, then it adds weight to your vitamin A toxicity theory. I am being completely serious about this and would love for you to take me up on the offer."

@raypeatclips, you said to Grant: "How can you claim your disease has nothing to do with Vitamin D deficiency, when you do not have a blood test telling us what your vitamin D levels are?"

You seem to be failing to understand the most basic facts of his story.

His diseases have been cured. And he didn't supplement any Vitamin D. That's how he knows it had nothing to do with Vitamin D deficiency.

He went on Vitamin A deplete diet for 4 years and it cured his severe eczema and brain fog and chronic fatigue and a doctor-diagnosed case of terminal chronic kidney disease and he now reports good vision, perfect digestion, perfect bowel movements, perfect blood pressure and perfect cholesterol numbers (all at the age of 58) — and yet you insist that he never addressed the "real problem" and your concerned about his future health because he hasn't gotten his Vitamin D checked?

If low Vit D was the problem — which seems to be your theory — then he wouldn't have cured anything, would he?

He didn't supplement Vit D. He didn't get any more sun exposure than before. So basically, the Vit D variable didn't change. If anything, his Vit D intake might have significantly decreased since he eliminated dairy and eggs. Actually, I just checked the nutrition facts of his VA elimination diet which he posts on p. 370 of ETFOH and it actually shows ZERO Vitamin D.

Isn't that interesting? So he healed all of his diseases with roughly zero Vit D intake and no compensation other than the light of the pale Canadian sun on his skin. :)

Are you starting to see why he's pretty confident it had "nothing to do with Vitamin D"?

You also say: "you would be able to handle reasonable amounts of vitamin A like a normal person can."

Again, lacking basic comprehension of even the broad points of his story.

Who said he couldn't handle VA in his present, healthy state? The severe reactions he describes in his first book were in the very early stages of his VA elimination experiment — so that would be 3+ years ago by now.

He is now fully recovered and has said that he does expect he could handle the reintroduction of VA but he is choosing not to in order to prove with his own life that VA is not an essential nutrient for health by living on a VA deplete diet for perhaps up to 9 or 10 years.

Nevertheless, Grant has said, in response to your comment, that Vitamin D can have a protective effect because "vitamin D blunts the toxicity of vitamin A by blocking up the same receptors, and thereby rate-limits the conversion of vitamin A into the highly toxic retinoic acid form of the retinoid molecule."

But a substance having a limited protective effect in appropriate amounts, is a very different thing from your claim that a deficiency of it has a causal role in disease.

Btw, I know that Grant also knows, since he pointed me to this paper, that Vitamin D can also have a compounding toxic effect if taken with Vitamin A in the wrong proportion.

"When the unitage of vitamin D exceeded that of Vitamin A, the combination was far more toxic than the same amount of vitamin A alone."

Concerning the Toxicity of Vitamin A - Vedder & Rosenberg, 1937
Sci-Hub | Concerning the Toxicity of Vitamin A | 10.1093/jn/16.1.57

By the way, that study demonstrates Vitamin C having an even stronger protective effect against retinol toxicty — but that doesn't mean it was a Vit C deficiency that caused his diseases.

Zinc, taurine and Vit E have also shown protective effects against retinol toxicity. Therefore low amounts of any of these could exacerbate the problem — but they are not CAUSES of the problem.

A lack of a substance which could have a protective effect against a disease is a very different thing from an excess of substance which is a direct cause of a disease.

If you want to see what a direct cause argument looks like — i.e. when X factor is a direct cause of Y disease, with an explained mechanism, and in a dose-dependent manner — you can seek out some books written by a guy named Grant Genereux, because that's exactly the kind of causal mechanism he describes, in great detail, when he explains how Vitamin A directly causes inflammation and autoimmune disease (and also breast cancer).

 

[sunraiser]

Are you Grant Genereux by any chance? :)

You directly reference his name so often which seems odd - kind of sales pitch-y.

I agree retinol can be problematic in certain scenarios but you've ignored many valid lines of enquiry in only the way a person that has a vested interest in something can.

This might be an unfair comment but it has crossed my mind a few times already.

 

[raypeatclips]

His diseases have been cured. And he didn't supplement any Vitamin D. That's how he knows it had nothing to do with Vitamin D deficiency.

Guessing you haven't read any of the comments I've sent to Grant Genereux™ and just waded in here to argue, seeing as I have plainly stated my opinion on this in one of the comments. Yes I understand why it would seem that X had a problem, X didn't take any vitamin D but lowered A and now feels better, so D can't have been the problem. I just don't agree with it. I was putting forward the idea that vitamin A was only problematic in a vitamin D deficient person, and that it was a ratio between them, which was the issue. In a vitamin D deficient person, eventually smaller and smaller amounts of vitamin A would cause reactions.

Do you think vitamin D is simply a big bad vitamin A antagonist, and does nothing else? From Peat's email exchanges alone, he has said vitamin D benefits: testosterone/cortisol balance, protective hormones pregnenolone and progesterone, using calcium, mineral metabolism, lower PTH, bone metabolism, immunity problems, improving T4-T3 conversion, lowering LH, etc.

Who said he couldn't handle VA in his present, healthy state?

Well he has a blog, a youtube channel and a few ebooks about it, so guessing he's not able to? Or not willing to, because of the consequences?

good vision, perfect digestion, perfect bowel movements, perfect blood pressure and perfect cholesterol numbers (all at the age of 58) —

I know people with terrible diets and hobbies that have good vision, what's that got to do with it? What's his digestion and bowel movements got to do with vitamin D or A? If he's getting a better diet than before, more fibre, then he will have better bowel movements. This cholesterol levels are considered perfect by doctors that want to push cholesterol lowering drugs onto people in order to make money. I think those levels look too low if we are talking about being in optimal health.

View attachment 10235

"Our experiments afford some confirmation of this view, or at least that administration of considerable amounts of vitamin D relives the toxic effects caused by jewfish liver oil."

Who is suggesting getting vitamin D in excessive amounts, or even equal amounts of vitamin A? Please show me, during this discussion with you and Grant, where I have said to get excessive amounts of Vitamin D, or where I have given advice regarding supplementation or dosages at all? If someone was explaining how beneficial aspirin is, I wouldn't bring up a study where mice are fed 50 grams of aspirin and say "Look! Aspirin as bad I told you!" Because nobody is suggesting taking 50 grams of aspirin, just like I haven't suggested taking 50,000iu (or more) vitamin D. That picture you showed me actually backs up my theory, so thank you for posting. My theory being that vitamin D is protective against A, in a ratio (which I have not yet said) but I've seen either Peat and/or haidut mention 5:1 A: D as being good.

I spoke to Grant Genereux™ my self in the comments of his website I'm not copying and pasting them all here because they're long, but they're in the "four year update" post and he responded this. "I’m not at all concerned about my vitamin D levels. Even if it is extremely low too I still would not bother supplementing with it. And, I understand the opposing forces between vitamin A and D, and you make a good point about the possible hyper-sensitivity to A being because of low D. I can totally see that being a possible contributor."

So Grant Genereux™ is coming round to the idea that low D could be a factor, he is starting to see a sensible view, are you?

 

[dbh25]

Are you Grant Genereux by any chance? :)

I think it is Mrs Genereux or a close friend