TheCedar1

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Why DHEA? If used Topical and in low doses it wont convert to estrogen.
Because DHEA can bind to the estrogen receptors in the growth plates with way more affinity than estrogen itself, shutting it like estrogen would, and quickly as well. The only time it doesn't happen is if you use a SERD like Faslodex, SERDs basically degrade estrogen receptors, preventing anything from binding to it. hence it's being used to treat breast cancer and in some cases prostate cancer. Using the strongest AI wouldn't help either, since DHEA can bind to ERs, inhibiting estrogen synthesis will not be able to nullify the effect

The reason Ray Peat grew taller on DHEA is because he's older and hence DHEA increased his androgens significantly, which contributed to better overall posture and better cartilage health and spinal disk hydration, he never actually grew longer bones, that's impossible at his age. In a young guy, you won't see much height growth from DHEA, and if not used with SERD, might even close your window of growth.

And before someone here misrepresents my points, this is no way trying to discredit Ray Peat, I'm just sharing my opinion
 
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TheCedar1

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Please provide a reference, because DHEA is a mild androgen, not estrogen.
"During the 3 d of the culture period, higher concentrations of DHEA (30 and 100 nM) induced a significant suppression of the metatarsal longitudinal growth (n = 20–24 per group, P < 0.05, Fig. 1A). Neither the addition of Casodex alone nor combination with DHEA had an effect on the DHEA-induced suppression of bone growth. In contrast, the addition of ICI alone had no effect on metatarsal bone growth, whereas a combination of ICI with DHEA nullified this growth inhibition induced by DHEA. To confirm such nullification of ICI is specific, we also cultured the metatarsal bone in the presence of dexamethasone with or without ICI. The addition of ICI could not abolish the growth inhibition caused by dexamethasone (n = 18–20 per group, P < 0.05, Fig. 1B). To rule out the potential role that local produced estrogen may play in the growth plate, we blocked the estrogen production by aromatase inhibitor, letrozole. The addition of letrozole did not change the inhibition of DHEA on longitudinal bone growth, indicating that such suppression induced by DHEA was not through its conversion to estrogen but through itself"

 

Risingfire

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DHEA is no different than SERMs in terms of closing your growth plates. Hence I ain't touching both of them.
They are different. Serms are estrogenic. DHEA in smaller doses isn't. Ray has said DHEA helped him grow in his 40's
 

Hans

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"During the 3 d of the culture period, higher concentrations of DHEA (30 and 100 nM) induced a significant suppression of the metatarsal longitudinal growth (n = 20–24 per group, P < 0.05, Fig. 1A). Neither the addition of Casodex alone nor combination with DHEA had an effect on the DHEA-induced suppression of bone growth. In contrast, the addition of ICI alone had no effect on metatarsal bone growth, whereas a combination of ICI with DHEA nullified this growth inhibition induced by DHEA. To confirm such nullification of ICI is specific, we also cultured the metatarsal bone in the presence of dexamethasone with or without ICI. The addition of ICI could not abolish the growth inhibition caused by dexamethasone (n = 18–20 per group, P < 0.05, Fig. 1B). To rule out the potential role that local produced estrogen may play in the growth plate, we blocked the estrogen production by aromatase inhibitor, letrozole. The addition of letrozole did not change the inhibition of DHEA on longitudinal bone growth, indicating that such suppression induced by DHEA was not through its conversion to estrogen but through itself"

So you want to tell me, to achieve optimal growth, you want very low DHEA?
 

Hans

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No, but supplementing DHEA while young and wanting to grow taller isn't exactly an optimal strategy now, is it?
If you're young and your DHEA is already high, extra DHEA is likely not going to do anything. But if it's low, it will be good to supplement. DHEA-S is associated with better growth in young children. DHEA is anabolic and helps with growth.
 

TheCedar1

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If you're young and your DHEA is already high, extra DHEA is likely not going to do anything. But if it's low, it will be good to supplement. DHEA-S is associated with better growth in young children. DHEA is anabolic and helps with growth.
Then how come it causes direct suppression of growth plate chrondrocytes through binding at the ER? Doesn't make a lot of sense that it can help with height growth when it can suppress your growth without needing to convert to estrogen. While yes, you should supplement if you're deficient, in my case, I ain't deficient, hence i dont want to use it
 

Hans

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Then how come it causes direct suppression of growth plate chrondrocytes through binding at the ER? Doesn't make a lot of sense that it can help with height growth when it can suppress your growth without needing to convert to estrogen. While yes, you should supplement if you're deficient, in my case, I ain't deficient, hence i dont want to use it
Probably because it's an in vitro study which doesn't have a lot of weight (if any) in the real world. If your DHEA is already high and you supplement, you'll most likely not feel a thing. So need.
 

TheCedar1

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Probably because it's an in vitro study which doesn't have a lot of weight (if any) in the real world. If your DHEA is already high and you supplement, you'll most likely not feel a thing. So need.
So you're telling me, even if i take DHEA, i won't get suppressed growth?
 

Hans

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So you're telling me, even if i take DHEA, i won't get suppressed growth?
Maybe there is a U-curve, although that hasn't been established. According to that study, DHEA will dose-dependently inhibit growth and that already is false. If your DHEA is already high/normal, then you really don't have to consider supplementing or if it inhibits growth or not.
 

Raytoo

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Great, thanks for the feedback! The focus and anti-anxiety are probably from the MAO-B inhibition by flavanone and the metabolic stimulation is probably a total effect of those mechanisms plus the aromatase inhbition from the a-naphthoflavone. Please keep us posted on effects with ongoing use. I, personally, also get a mental boost from it but without the jitteriness I sometimes get from higher doses caffeine if I take the latter on empty stomach. With Gonadin, even on empty stomach I don't get a stress reaction.
Feedback, after watching Hans and Giorgi talk about the new version, gave one drop to my wife topical navel and wow, improved mood and sexual desire, this was the very first time!? Mid 50's Menopause has been tough.
Thanks Haidut.
 

NewACC

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@haidut Good afternoon Haidut, I apologize for being a little off topic, but what are the maximum dosages of gonadin and allopregnanolone that you consider acceptable / generally tolerable for a person? Thank you so much for your input!
 

haidut

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@haidut Haidut, how do you think, can gonadin cure mj withdrawal?

I can't comments on our products diagnosing, managing, curing, etc any condition. As far as maximum doses - as much as a person feels a benefit from, but for most people that seems to be no more than 16-20 drops of Gonadin, and for allopregnanolone most people who tried it through their doctor say more than 10mg was too sedating.
 

NewACC

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I can't comments on our products diagnosing, managing, curing, etc any condition. As far as maximum doses - as much as a person feels a benefit from, but for most people that seems to be no more than 16-20 drops of Gonadin, and for allopregnanolone most people who tried it through their doctor say more than 10mg was too sedating.
Hello @haidut very much sorry for asking the same question but could you please tell me the maximum dose of kuinone, cardenosine, lisuride, metergoline, lanosterol, diamant, combination of androsterone and pansterone in 1:1 ratio, 6- keto-progesteron, defibron and energin, which would, in principle, be tolerated by humans. I really apologize for this question, I just really need to know the maximum dosages of your wonderful products! BEST WISHES! Apologize for copying this time, because I wrote in wrong thread!
 
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