GOD BLESS RAY PEAT

managing

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@DDK - good question. I use the term starch loosely sometimes but what I've found to be inflammatory, is processed flour, grain, and legumes. As far as I know, Ray Peat speaks fairly highly of well-cooked potatoes. He claims the starch is broken down in the cooking process so they are safe for consumption. They work exceedingly well for me. The only comments I could find for him for rice was they were a good way to gain weight without much nutritional value. I don't each much rice to be honest but I've noticed no negative reactions to it. I also feel good the next day after eating it. Sweet potatoes he said that one can over-do it on the beta carotene but they work well for me from time to time. I mostly stick to white mashed potatoes because of the hormonal response I get. I use biofeedback to test inflammation. I usually will notice puffiness and/or redness in the face, poor digestion, and/or runny nose when I eat something inflammatory. When I eliminated processed starch, grains, and legumes, my runny nose disappeared and my feelings of well being improved greatly.
Agreed. And add: if rice is well rinsed, until the water runs clear, and then cooked, there is negligible starch. It also has, imho, a better texture if handled such. Always white, never brown.
 

DDK

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@DDK - good question. I use the term starch loosely sometimes but what I've found to be inflammatory, is processed flour, grain, and legumes. As far as I know, Ray Peat speaks fairly highly of well-cooked potatoes. He claims the starch is broken down in the cooking process so they are safe for consumption. They work exceedingly well for me. The only comments I could find for him for rice was they were a good way to gain weight without much nutritional value. I don't each much rice to be honest but I've noticed no negative reactions to it. I also feel good the next day after eating it. Sweet potatoes he said that one can over-do it on the beta carotene but they work well for me from time to time. I mostly stick to white mashed potatoes because of the hormonal response I get. I use biofeedback to test inflammation. I usually will notice puffiness and/or redness in the face, poor digestion, and/or runny nose when I eat something inflammatory. When I eliminated processed starch, grains, and legumes, my runny nose disappeared and my feelings of well being improved greatly.

I like you, tolerate potatoes the best of all the starches; but I also tolerate white flour quite well. What type of flour were you eating: enriched, unenriched, bromated, US Flour, etc... and were you using the flour to make homemade bread or pancakes or pasta? It depends on the flour and what other additives are involved. If you were eating wonder bread or commercial pizza and thinking you can't tolerate flour, it's likely the other additives in these products causing you issues, not the flour. However, if you were buying organic, unenriched, unbromated white flour and using it to make homemade bread or pancakes and couldn't tolerate it, then yes it probably is the flour.
 

managing

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I like you, tolerate potatoes the best of all the starches; but I also tolerate white flour quite well. What type of flour were you eating: enriched, unenriched, bromated, US Flour, etc... and were you using the flour to make homemade bread or pancakes or pasta? It depends on the flour and what other additives are involved. If you were eating wonder bread or commercial pizza and thinking you can't tolerate flour, it's likely the other additives in these products causing you issues, not the flour. However, if you were buying organic, unenriched, unbromated white flour and using it to make homemade bread or pancakes and couldn't tolerate it, then yes it probably is the flour.
Also excellent point. Another thing to add: In the US, flour is required by law to be "enriched". Love it. Legally mandated poisoning.

However, organic products receive an exemption. Why? Because there is no such thing as "organic" iron. I mean, think about it for a moment . . . Organic. Iron. Anyway, they are exempt from the whole entire "enriched" thing, not just iron. So, if you have to eat something, make it organic. Not because of organic per se, but because its not "enriched" with toxins.
 

danielbb

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I like you, tolerate potatoes the best of all the starches; but I also tolerate white flour quite well. What type of flour were you eating: enriched, unenriched, bromated, US Flour, etc... and were you using the flour to make homemade bread or pancakes or pasta? It depends on the flour and what other additives are involved. If you were eating wonder bread or commercial pizza and thinking you can't tolerate flour, it's likely the other additives in these products causing you issues, not the flour. However, if you were buying organic, unenriched, unbromated white flour and using it to make homemade bread or pancakes and couldn't tolerate it, then yes it probably is the flour.
You ask great questions @DDK. I didn't go into this detail of troubleshooting but I am all ears. I pretty much gave up things like pizza, subs, sandwiches, and other processed foods but kept testing things because in one of his articles, Ray mentioned runny nose was an inflammatory reaction to what you eat. So I began baking things like cookies, bread, and cakes because almost all commercial food items sold in the US contains PUFA. I was doing well on homemade carrot cake, for example, using flour but then I noticed my digestion started to suffer. It wasn't until I removed all flour that my runny nose completely went away. The kind of flour I was using was either All-Purpose flour or Bread flour sold at the supermarket. Are you telling me you know of an anti-inflammatory flour? Please post a source where I could look at the ingredients in this stuff if you have it. I know this, when I made my own bread from scratch, I noticed it was one of the most stickiest and gooiest substances that you can imagine. It occurred to me that when you eat that type of starch, it probably goo's up your inside when the flour is rehydrated in your stomach and intestines. My digestion has greatly improved by removing that type of starch. Thanks, Dan
 

DDK

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You ask great questions @DDK. I didn't go into this detail of troubleshooting but I am all ears. I pretty much gave up things like pizza, subs, sandwiches, and other processed foods but kept testing things because in one of his articles, Ray mentioned runny nose was an inflammatory reaction to what you eat. So I began baking things like cookies, bread, and cakes because almost all commercial food items sold in the US contains PUFA. I was doing well on homemade carrot cake, for example, using flour but then I noticed my digestion started to suffer. It wasn't until I removed all flour that my runny nose completely went away. The kind of flour I was using was either All-Purpose flour or Bread flour sold at the supermarket. Are you telling me you know of an anti-inflammatory flour? Please post a source where I could look at the ingredients in this stuff if you have it. I know this, when I made my own bread from scratch, I noticed it was one of the most stickiest and gooiest substances that you can imagine. It occurred to me that when you eat that type of starch, it probably goo's up your inside when the flour is rehydrated in your stomach and intestines. My digestion has greatly improved by removing that type of starch. Thanks, Dan

If you feel better without wheat in your diet then don't eat it. It probably isn't worth the hassle to try to find a flour or wheat based product you can tolerate. However, if you are like me and can't live without wheat in your diet; then maybe it is worth experimenting. Wheat is my favorite food so I didn't mind trying all these different flours until I found a few I could tolerate. You are right about giving up on commercial processed wheat products like pizza, subs, sandwiches, etc... I don't eat those things either. But I do make homemade bread, cake, cookies and pancakes and seem to tolerate them very well. If the flour that you were using wasn't organic, then it certainly was enriched and bromated and also sprayed with glyphosate. If you are looking for a US flour I would recommend Bob's Red Mill Organic All Purpose Flour or Hodgson Mill's All Purpose Flour. I don't know what you mean about "anti-inflammatory" flour, but these two US flours I am able to tolerate well. For some people no US wheat is tolerable but they can tolerate European flour just fine. If you couldn't tolerate any US flour I would then recommend Francine Farine De Ble which is a french flour or Pivetti or Molino Grassi which are Italian Flours. You can find these online. Again, this probably isn't worth the hassle for you. You seem to be doing good with your current diet, wheat might not be for you. But I enjoy it to much and it is pro-metabolic for me, so long as it's good quality and I use it to make homemade wheat products.

Yes, gluten is very sticky. That is the nature of this particular type of protein. But casein and gelatin (which are both Peat recommended) are essentially the same thing. Casein, Gelatin and Gluten are all structurally the same. They form a glue-like, rubbery mass in the intestines. You said you tolerated milk right? You know commercial glue is made out of casein. So I doubt the stickiness of gluten is the issue. Also, those European flours I mentioned have much less gluten and aren't nearly as sticky as the US flours, and if you eat the wheat with fat, like for instance a slice of white bread with loads of butter; the butter lubricates the intestines and keeps the gluten from sticking.
 

danielbb

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@DDK - thank you very kindly for your detailed comments and analysis. I've been making my own zucchini flour and that has been a pretty good substitute but it is time-consuming and expensive. Since my symptoms disappeared, I made the assumption that all flours were the same. I am willing to experiment and see if I get an inflammatory reaction because like you, I like those things you mentioned and I don't mind at all baking things for myself.

You made a very interesting comment about the European flours. About two weeks ago, a friend mentioned that Italian's living in Italy were noted to be in relatively decent physical condition. He attributed that to the quality of flour they use because he said they do have a lot of starch as in flour in their diet (Is that true from any of our Euro-Italian members out there?). I kind of dismissed the thought but there may be something to his observation. I am thinking of trying some of those flours you recommend and see if I react negatively or positively to them.

How is your digestion btw DDK? Do you notice it slowing at all when you ingest a flour-based item you have baked? Thanks again for your response.
 

EIRE24

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Since you mentioned depression Waremu, I'll comment on that. I've suffered from it my whole life but usually it was manageable by simply refusing to give in to it. I noticed that once I gave up starch, all feelings of depression left me. I would have posted that initially but I wasn't sure if people would believe me. I don't even have negative thoughts anymore as hard as that is to believe. I don't believe I've heard Ray explicitly say this, but my theory based on anecdotal evidence of one is that depression as an inflammatory reaction to what we eat. That is the only explanation that makes sense to me. In fact, I believe that the nutrition advice Ray provides is designed to heal the body and un-do the bad stuff you did before. The anti-inflammatory diet if you will. I've healed so many things and people shake their heads when I tell them. They think I have lost my marbles saying these things.

Ray talks about runny nose and how that is linked to bowl endotoxins. I've cured a perpetual runny nose because of this one revelation. I always used to make excuses for it like it's cold outside or it is allergy season. The runny nose was history after removing starch as I had already eliminated PUFA yet still had the runny nose.

I've also cured plantar faciitas (probably also because I've lost weight), ED, high blood pressure, low thyroid, frequent headaches, poor digestion, mood swings, gynocomastia, and dark circles under eyes along with overall improvement of skin quality, among other things. The most interesting one of all is skin tags. These are white skin protrusions on the eye-lids and around the eye. I never thought these would ever go away without some type of laser surgery to remove them. Mine have miraculously disappeared. The only conclusion I have drawn is that skin tags are also an inflammatory reaction to what we eat. I no longer drink alcohol because I found I no longer need it. When you are operating at 100%, you can only go down hill from there. I am 58 years old and feel like a 16 year old boy. I know these things must sound ridiculous to hear them, but these are the types of results I've gotten. Sorry again for being so long-winded. I said it above, there are no free lunches no matter whose diet you follow in my opinion. In order to lose weight, you have to watch your caloric intake (there's a reason why Ray recommends 1% milk, for example) and exercise without causing the stress hormones. I like lifting and walking.

Food is a DRUG and it can cause great harm in the body and it can be used to HEAL. I believe everything can be over-dosed and that is why I only do liver once per week, for example, per Ray's recommendation. I no longer take supplements of any kind because none of them work as effectively as OJ, milk, milk products, liver, potatoes, healthy protein sources, fruit, etc. and so forth.
You do know that potatoe is a starch?
 

danielbb

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You do know that potatoe is a starch?
Yes indeed @EIRE24 - please see my comments above when DDK asked me the same question. Sometimes I use the term starch loosely (I apologize) when I am really talking more about refined flours for the most part. Potatoes and white rice seem to work very well for me without any inflammatory reaction.
 

managing

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You do know that potatoe is a starch?
Not going to dig it out, but in this thread is also the info that RP has said that if it is properly and completely cooked, potato has very little starch. Same for thoroughly rinsed rice.

Your statement isn't wrong. But is incomplete.
 

EIRE24

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Not going to dig it out, but in this thread is also the info that RP has said that if it is properly and completely cooked, potato has very little starch. Same for thoroughly rinsed rice.

Your statement isn't wrong. But is incomplete.
So what is it then when it is properly and completely cooked to make my comment complete?
 

DDK

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@DDK - thank you very kindly for your detailed comments and analysis. I've been making my own zucchini flour and that has been a pretty good substitute but it is time-consuming and expensive. Since my symptoms disappeared, I made the assumption that all flours were the same. I am willing to experiment and see if I get an inflammatory reaction because like you, I like those things you mentioned and I don't mind at all baking things for myself.

You made a very interesting comment about the European flours. About two weeks ago, a friend mentioned that Italian's living in Italy were noted to be in relatively decent physical condition. He attributed that to the quality of flour they use because he said they do have a lot of starch as in flour in their diet (Is that true from any of our Euro-Italian members out there?). I kind of dismissed the thought but there may be something to his observation. I am thinking of trying some of those flours you recommend and see if I react negatively or positively to them.

How is your digestion btw DDK? Do you notice it slowing at all when you ingest a flour-based item you have baked? Thanks again for your response.

All flours certainly aren't the same, that I can tell you for certain through self-experimentation. This has been known for some time the differences between European and US flour. There are so many stories of people who can't eat any US wheat but when in Europe they can eat wheat based products ad libitum and not suffer any negative reactions.

My digestion at the moment is good. Yes, it does slow a little from the wheat but again this is normal with this type of protein. If you are someone who has slow intestinal motility/constipation then it probably is good to avoid gluten, casein and gelatin because all of them are going to cause slower transit. Like I said above I eat bread or pancakes with butter so it helps to keep things moving. If I were to eat a piece of plain bread with no fat I'm sure it would slow things down too much. Also, intestinal inflammation can slow down gut transit so eating a US wheat that is inflammatory is going to "back you up" whereas the European flours I have tried have not caused any slowing of peristalsis.
 

managing

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So what is it then when it is properly and completely cooked to make my comment complete?
Like I said, not particularly starchy . . . . when properly prepared.

EDIT: whether they are properly called "starches" or not, I am not particularly interested in. I guess my point is that HERE, when RP says something is not particularly starchy, and is ok to eat, that matters. Does that many everybody can or should eat them? No. But they shouldn't be dismissed as starches. At least not on a site dedicated to exploring and understanding RP's ideas.
 

Lowdose69

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Not going to dig it out, but in this thread is also the info that RP has said that if it is properly and completely cooked, potato has very little starch. Same for thoroughly rinsed rice.

Your statement isn't wrong. But is incomplete.

I notice I can eat a ton of rice with no issues, but a beer or some pasta will make my nose get stuffy and run.
 

danielbb

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I just ordered Pivetti All-purpose flour from Amazon. I picked this flour based on @DDK's recommendation above and the customer reviews/comments at Amazon. Almost all of them commented that they no longer had the issues they experienced with US flours and how much they loved the product. It will be here by the 21st and I'll be baking some stuff with it and see how that works. I'll report my findings then. I am very excited about this. If my runny nose returns, I'll go back to making my own zucchini flour :):
 

DDK

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I just ordered Pivetti All-purpose flour from Amazon. I picked this flour based on @DDK's recommendation above and the customer reviews/comments at Amazon. Almost all of them commented that they no longer had the issues they experienced with US flours and how much they loved the product. It will be here by the 21st and I'll be baking some stuff with it and see how that works. I'll report my findings then. I am very excited about this. If my runny nose returns, I'll go back to making my own zucchini flour :):

What were you planning on baking? I ask because some people I've talked to thought they were having problems with wheat and it turned out it was the commercial yeast they were using in their baking. So maybe try making a homemade bread with the Pivetti flour using yeast and try making a cake or pancakes where you are using milk, eggs, butter, sugar, salt, flour and baking powder. Just so that you have a control in order to see if the flour is bothering you or the yeast.
 

tara

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I cant only do milk and orange juice or fruits. I need some hot meal. I dont have any difficulty to stop any gluten food but rice is very hard for me to stop or diminish, as it has been my main food since childhood and Peat said it was ok. I will try to diminish to just twice or 3/week only.
Me neither. Milk doesn't serve me well ATM. I do eat some meat, fish, shellfish. Potatoes as a staple, and varying with sweet potatoes, yams, taro, onions, pumpkin, zucchini, and other squash, peppers, leafy greens, sometimes other veges ... and a bit of rice all seem to be good in addition to fruit.
 

tara

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And add: if rice is well rinsed, until the water runs clear, and then cooked, there is negligible starch.
I don't have anything against it, and I eat it myself, but it's still mostly starch.
Because there is no such thing as "organic" iron.
Liver. :)
You made a very interesting comment about the European flours. About two weeks ago, a friend mentioned that Italian's living in Italy were noted to be in relatively decent physical condition.
I'm not doubting that there are many healthy Italians, nor that there are wheat flours with better characteristics, but I think I've read that there are rather a lot of Italians living with coeliac conditions, too.
 

aquaman

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@DDK

You made a very interesting comment about the European flours. About two weeks ago, a friend mentioned that Italian's living in Italy were noted to be in relatively decent physical condition. He attributed that to the quality of flour they use because he said they do have a lot of starch as in flour in their diet (Is that true from any of our Euro-Italian members out there?). I kind of dismissed the thought but there may be something to his observation. I am thinking of trying some of those flours you recommend and see if I react negatively or positively to them.


I’ve seen other suggestions that the difference between European flours is the Lack of iron fortification.

From memory France and Italy do not fortify with Iron, but the US and UK do (industrial by-product iron as well). I’m sure there’s posts on it here.
 

Lolinaa

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Me neither. Milk doesn't serve me well ATM. I do eat some meat, fish, shellfish. Potatoes as a staple, and varying with sweet potatoes, yams, taro, onions, pumpkin, zucchini, and other squash, peppers, leafy greens, sometimes other veges ... and a bit of rice all seem to be good in addition to fruit.

The sweet potatoes because of the carotene I don’t eat it anymore. Maybe if I find the white one I will eat it again.

Great ideas for the yams and zucchini. I absolutely love zucchini and eggplants. I will add those suggestions to vary a bit. Thanks Tara.
 

Lolinaa

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I’ve seen other suggestions that the difference between European flours is the Lack of iron fortification.

From memory France and Italy do not fortify with Iron, but the US and UK do (industrial by-product iron as well). I’m sure there’s posts on it here.

Actually, here there are more and more enriched food like in America and the flour is too.
The difference is that you can still find some healthy options without ruining yourself unlike America.

In France and Italy people eat lots of bread, pizza, pasta and crêpe. I dont think the bakeries and supermarkets use iron free floor to do their bread and pastries.

And when I see the lack of energy and the crazy way people are acting here I definitely think there is something with the food.
 

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