Glycine Vs Powdered Gelatin

[Kartoffel]

Interesting point there. Do you have a source on this, or is it an observation made from your own experience with gelatin? I ask because Dr Peat has recommended gelatin on many occasions, and he makes a habit of researching all of his foods for potential dangers. Furthermore, I had thought endotoxin was a bacteria that fed upon carbs, not protien. That is why starch in particular can raise endotoxin.

Every person I spoke to basically had the same experience with gelatine- upset stomach, cold sweaty hands, irritability, etc about 30-90min after consumption. As I said, gelatine is mostly made from skin, and there are lots of bacteria on dead skin. Endotoxin is not a bacteria, it is a polysaccharide that is part of the outter membrane of gram negative bacteria, and released when those die.

 

[Zpol]

I suppose it's dependant on the individual. Endotoxin is of course a big issue but the ratio of arginine to lysine is just as important. Gelatin, in powders and also bone broth, is much higher in arginine than lysine.

Numerous studies show too high arginine to lysine ratio can cause dormant viruses to flare up, particularly all forms of herpes. I've also seen sudies indicating an arginine restricted diet is beneficial for HIV/AIDS.

 

[Fractality]

Could you ask him the hot question now on all of our minds? Does gelatin contain loads of endotoxin?

Unfortunately he hasn't answered yet. He isn't responsive like he was earlier in the year.

 

[Jeff Masters]

My 2c is; I have now been on Gelatin and Hydrolyzed Collagen for the last 3 to 4 months and have seen some great improvements with my digestion, (along with a few other tweeks to my diet) with no apparent side effects. I was definitely heading into the sickness field from consuming 2 table spoons of flax seed oil everyday added to either 30g whey powder or soy powder in a cereal of millet, barley, brown rice etc. Being a vegetarian for the last 30 years, the majority of my other protein was from Tofu, nuts, seeds and beans, so as you can see according to the Peatarian diet I was way off the mark and wasting away as my GI track was becoming very irritated/inflamed and wasn't assimilating much of the nutrients along with increased endotxin, lactic acid, NO etc not to mention feeling like crap!

The below is an extract from "Ray Peat articles on Gelatin"
"Some types of cell damage are prevented almost as well by alanine and proline as by glycine, so the use of gelatin, rather than glycine, is preferable, especially when the gelatin is associated with its normal biochemicals. For example, skin is a rich source of steroid hormones, and cartilage contains “Mead acid,” which is itself anti inflammatory."

I am personally going to add pure Glycine to my grass fed Hydrolyzed Collagen blend which I am now packing off for my friends (as I have been involved with a powder blending and packing plant for the last 25 years)
I will also add the above blend to my organic skim milk powder which I am using for my breakfast pancake mix, which delivers approximately 50 to 60 gram of protein when added to 2 organic eggs and topped with some Greek yogurt and fruit.

I have studied nutrition and have had a passion for it most of my life but what Ray, Haidut, Danny, this blog and others have taught me in the last 9 months has surpassed all previous research!
I am now back to my playing weight and starting to feel good again coming up to my 60th b'day.

 

[sladerunner69]

Unfortunately he hasn't answered yet. He isn't responsive like he was earlier in the year.

Well maybe the winter hasn't been great for his metabolic rate. I hope he is taking his thyroid!

Every person I spoke to basically had the same experience with gelatine- upset stomach, cold sweaty hands, irritability, etc about 30-90min after consumption. As I said, gelatine is mostly made from skin, and there are lots of bacteria on dead skin. Endotoxin is not a bacteria, it is a polysaccharide that is part of the outter membrane of gram negative bacteria, and released when those die.

Interesting, every person you say? I have certainly heard a fair amount of positive experiences with gelatin, although many people have said that dissolving it in warm liquid is crucial or they become bloated and cramped. I myself stopped gulping powder gelatin in a mixer bottle and began only using it when mixed with hot coffee. No sweaty hands or other noticeable problems, and a nice calm pleasant feeling afterward. However I must admit that sometimes I feel it puts me in a bit of a daze, as in it is harder to concentrate and I become too tired.

Anyways you have convinced me to quit gelatin for a few weeks and see how it goes.

 

[Dolomite]

Gelatin twice a day resolved colitis for my husband. It helps beneficial bacteria as well as provides glycine. We have not used glycine alone but I give a small amount to my dog and she no longer has seizures. My dog also gets some apple juice gelatin as a treat.

 

[stevrd]

A good discussion on gelatin and glycine is below. The main benefit to gelatin is glycine, and since it's difficulty for many to eat enough gelatin to get the beneficial amount of glycine (about 10-15g per day), extra glycine supplementation is often necessary. Also, in the podcast below, it's discussed that because of gelatin's high hydroxyproline content, excess oxalate levels may occur in the urine.

https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2018/01/08/why-you-need-glycine-a-panel-discussion/

I've gone back and fourth over the years, supplementing with either gelatin or glycine. I find glycine much more convenient and cheaper to obtain glycine than obtaining the same amount from gelatin. I also have experienced inflammatory issues with gelatin as well. I've had acne flare-ups by consuming powdered gelatin mixed in beverages. What I've noticed is that melting the gelatin, for example making a jello with apple juice, completely eliminates this issue. I'm not sure if cooking makes a difference in it's digestiblity. But presumably, because melting it further breaks down proteins to form a gelatenous solution, it would make sense that this form would be less irritating to the gut.

 

[japanesedude]

I think glycine gives me a diarrhea.I can feel water and gas in my gut.
I always take 1g Glycine and babyaspirin with coffee. take another 3g Glycine before sleep.

 

[Sheik]

Pure glycine powder gave me bad anxiety. Gelatin and collagen powder don't seem to have any bad effects for me.

 

[CDT]

I don't know of any commercially available gelatine that is safe. They are all full of endotoxin. Glycine is a very safe supplement because it is such a simple substance

Just curious, but how many grams of glycine should be taken a day?

 

[Kartoffel]

I think with a normal diet devoid of rich glycine sources 4-5g of supplemental glycine might be reasonable. Glycine is a very safe amino acid because your body can convert any excess into glucose so you could experiment with larger doses, if you wanted to.

 

[papaya]

Unfortunately he hasn't answered yet. He isn't responsive like he was earlier in the year.

i'm also very curious to know what ray thinks about gelatin being contaminated with roundup.

 

[Runenight201]

I never noticed anything good or bad from gelatin consumption. I would mix it with OJ and it would actually taste good...I enjoyed mushing it around in my mouth and then getting all the congealed gelatin off of my teeth.

It's a hassle to scoop out and pour in my mouth tho, and easily makes a mess, so I stopped its consumption.

 

[Inaut]

I've switched to glycine and prefer it much more. No stomach issues

 

[schultz]

A friend of mine was using glycine but it gave him "explosive diarrhea" (his words). Since he wasn't going to use it anymore he gave it to me. It gave me a crazy amount of gas. Never has anything given me that much gas! Brand is "Swanson Ultra - Ajipure glycine - Pharmaceutical grade" and it's the loose powder, not the capsuled one.

I use generic gelatin (non-hydrolyzed) and it's fine, no issues. Even if there is endotoxin in it, this does not mean you are going to absorb that endotoxin through your gut wall, so it may depend on your gut health as to how well you tolerate regular gelatin (this is merely my opinion).

 

[koky]

Gelatine is mostly made from animal skin, the perfect breading ground for the gram-negative bacteria that release endotoxin. Skin cells constantly shed and die quickly so any product made from dead animal's skin is likely to contain significant amounts of it. That's why companies are trying to develop low-endotoxin gelatine for medical purposes

Ray's response:" Since the skin turns over quickly, the cells are always very new, and so don’t have time to accumulate things the way bones, muscles, and brain do."

 

[koky]

Zint has much more glycine and less argenine than Great Lakes
might that make it more effective in the context of this discussion?

 

[TeaRex14]

I use collagen, I add it to my ice cream, juice, and coffee.

 

[cyclops]

The below is an extract from "Ray Peat articles on Gelatin"
"Some types of cell damage are prevented almost as well by alanine and proline as by glycine, so the use of gelatin, rather than glycine, is preferable, especially when the gelatin is associated with its normal biochemicals. For example, skin is a rich source of steroid hormones, and cartilage contains “Mead acid,” which is itself anti inflammatory."

So maybe one should consider supplementing with alanine and proline alongside glycine if they were going that route. It would be good to know the best ratio for such a combo...

 

[Jeff Masters]

I would probably stick to the same ratio as that of the Gelatin/hydrolyzed Collagen which is Alanine 8%, Proline 11.5%, 20.6% Glycine which goes along with all the other amino acids. So if you only used the 3 in isolation it would equal the following ratio 20.2%, Proline 28.6%, 51.1% Glycine.