Glycine Is Directly Anabolic AND Anticatabolic For The Muscle

Rex_Squiggly

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To clarify for practical purposes:

Can we conclude from this that [36g casein + 9g gelatin] will have the same (or greater) effect on muscle protein synthesis as [45g casein]?

If I consume 1.6 g/kg protein per day, in order to max out muscle protein synthesis, can I replace a portion of that gram-for-gram with gelatin and reap the same benefit?
 
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haidut

haidut

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Can we conclude from this that [36g casein + 9g gelatin] will have the same (or greater) effect on muscle protein synthesis as [45g casein]?

That would be my interpretation, yes. And for your second question - Peat said that 60%-70% of the daily protein can be form gelatin without creating any protein deficiencies or compromising tissue recovery or muscle growth.
 

AJA

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For many years I overlooked glycine. Not anymore. I think the “ideal for health” requirements are higher than what many people are able to get in food. I take 3 grams with every meal. It is very safe and subtle, however, I would call it an unsung hero in nutrition. At least in my own nutrition. After grad school, I taught seminars on nutrition and stress, however, did not appreciate the role of amino acids enough. Now I do. Nobody is getting too rich off of glycine.....research is still very incomplete.
 

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Mossy

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For many years I overlooked glycine. Not anymore. I think the “ideal for health” requirements are higher than what many people are able to get in food. I take 3 grams with every meal. It is very safe and subtle, however, I would call it an unsung hero in nutrition. At least in my own nutrition. After grad school, I taught seminars on nutrition and stress, however, did not appreciate the role of amino acids enough. Now I do. Nobody is getting too rich off of glycine.....research is still very incomplete.
Interesting. With 3 grams a meal, do you get any fatigue or lethargy? With glycine doses way smaller that what you’re taking, I get both.
 

sladerunner69

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Yes, as it is mostly glycine. The elemental magnesium in the glycinate salt is somewhere around 10% so the rest is glycine.

Interesting, I had not thought of this. I purchased a mag glycinate supplement recently, made by Solaray, but it seems to give me a bit of diaherrea which Peat had warned about as a side effect of all magnesium supplements. Hopefully my digestive system will become acclimated to it over time.
 

Hans

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What would be considered a good intake for glycine daily? A 1:1 ratio of glycine to methionine or would more be considered to be even more beneficial?
 

Wagner83

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For many years I overlooked glycine. Not anymore. I think the “ideal for health” requirements are higher than what many people are able to get in food. I take 3 grams with every meal. It is very safe and subtle, however, I would call it an unsung hero in nutrition. At least in my own nutrition. After grad school, I taught seminars on nutrition and stress, however, did not appreciate the role of amino acids enough. Now I do. Nobody is getting too rich off of glycine.....research is still very incomplete.
When one takes multiple grams of a supplement very frequently impurities become a bigger concern.
 

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tankasnowgod

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@Hans just posted a great writeup on the Anti-Catabolic properties of Collagen-

Collagen: the one thing you need more of for muscle growth and fat loss

The results from the study he referenced were really impressive, with 5.5 kg of Fat Mass lost, and 4.2 kg of lean mass gain in men with sarcopenia. It even outperformed a study where men were given testosterone. The amount of collagen was 15 grams daily, which would include 3 grams of glycine, right in line with the numbers Haidut mentioned at the top of this post.
 
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haidut

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@Hans just posted a great writeup on the Anti-Catabolic properties of Collagen-

Collagen: the one thing you need more of for muscle growth and fat loss

The results from the study he referenced were really impressive, with 5.5 kg of Fat Mass lost, and 4.2 kg of lean mass gain in men with sarcopenia. It even outperformed a study where men were given testosterone. The amount of collagen was 15 grams daily, which would include 3 grams of glycine, right in line with the numbers Haidut mentioned at the top of this post.

Amazing! If you want to make it even more anabolic, add some aspirin. Not only will aspirin also lower cortisol (inhibits 11b-HSD1), but as I mentioned in another thread recently, COX inhibitors increase steroidogenesis, especially in older adults, and this may even negate the need for any steroid supplementation.
Why DHEA Must Be Taken In Small Doses Only
 

Cirion

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That would be my interpretation, yes. And for your second question - Peat said that 60%-70% of the daily protein can be form gelatin without creating any protein deficiencies or compromising tissue recovery or muscle growth.

Interesting, thanks for this 60-70% number.

Let's say then your minimum protein requirements are 100 grams a day. So you could get 70 gram from gelatin, and only need to get 30 gram elsewhere? That would mean roughly 5-6 oz of meat or a couple cups of milk. Taking this further, could this mean you could eat Vegan style and not even meat at all as long as you got lots of gelatin (Using quality plant proteins like potatoes for the rest of the protein needs)? So not technically vegan, but Vegan sans the gelatin. FWIW, I briefly tried vegan (but with gelatin) a couple months ago and actually felt very, very good in terms of energy and mental clarity and looking back at old cronometer logs had some high gelatin intake days alongside low or no meat.

Although now, with more knowledge under my belt, I think the vegan benefits were from lowering acidity in general, which I can also achieve by eating a low or zero salt diet (having sodium bicarbonate instead), and also no more mexican colas (avoid the phosphorus acid) but this modified "Vegan" diet is nice to have as a fallback option if all else fails.

Regardless, this definitely seems to hint at my suspicions that not much animal meat is needed, and I can definitely cut my intake at like 8 oz a day as long as I get enough gelatin and potatoes etc.
 
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Interesting, thanks for this 60-70% number.

Let's say then your minimum protein requirements are 100 grams a day. So you could get 70 gram from gelatin, and only need to get 30 gram elsewhere? That would mean roughly 5-6 oz of meat or a couple cups of milk. Taking this further, could this mean you could eat Vegan style and not even meat at all as long as you got lots of gelatin (Using quality plant proteins like potatoes for the rest of the protein needs)? So not technically vegan, but Vegan sans the gelatin. FWIW, I briefly tried vegan (but with gelatin) a couple months ago and actually felt very, very good in terms of energy and mental clarity and looking back at old cronometer logs had some high gelatin intake days alongside low or no meat.

Although now, with more knowledge under my belt, I think the vegan benefits were from lowering acidity in general, which I can also achieve by eating a low or zero salt diet (having sodium bicarbonate instead), and also no more mexican colas (avoid the phosphorus acid) but this modified "Vegan" diet is nice to have as a fallback option if all else fails.

Regardless, this definitely seems to hint at my suspicions that not much animal meat is needed, and I can definitely cut my intake at like 8 oz a day as long as I get enough gelatin and potatoes etc.

If the vegan protein you eat has a nigh enough NNU value then yes, adding gelatin to a vegan diet would probably be a good protein regimen. The problem is that the plant proteins typically have much lower nutritional value than animal ones. Egg is considered best, milk is next, then meat, then collagen, and only then the vegan proteins. Many of them have NNU barely above 0.5, which means they generate quite a bit of waste without much nitrogen retention and utilization.
 

Cirion

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If the vegan protein you eat has a nigh enough NNU value then yes, adding gelatin to a vegan diet would probably be a good protein regimen. The problem is that the plant proteins typically have much lower nutritional value than animal ones. Egg is considered best, milk is next, then meat, then collagen, and only then the vegan proteins. Many of them have NNU barely above 0.5, which means they generate quite a bit of waste without much nitrogen retention and utilization.

How utilizable is the protein from white potatoes? Ray speaks favorably of potato proteins right? FWIW, the only few days in the past few months I've done well were when I got a lot of calories from potatoes (as much as 3 lbs a day) with no animal proteins. Yes, I saw that from one of your other threads on protein utilization. Unfortunately my tolerance of animal products (other than gelatin) is very, very low and even though plant proteins are less usable, overall I feel better on plant products for the bulk of my calories. 16 oz a day of beef turned out to be definitely too much, 8 oz still seems to be too much (gauged by my absolute inability to get 98.6F waking temps), perhaps I can experiment with halving it again to 4 oz instead of going to 0, that's one thing I haven't tried yet (Other than eating straight up 0 animal meat which is the only way I can ever get 98.6F waking temps thus far in 4 months of tracking intakes on chronometer and my personal database). I definitely start to feel protein deficiency at under around the 70-80 gram mark (muscle pain/soreness), but more or less feel fine as long as intake is closer to 100-125g or so. Which I believe is pretty much what Ray also said. I am also sedentary like Ray so my protein needs are similar to his.
 
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How utilizable is the protein from white potatoes? Ray speaks favorably of potato proteins right? FWIW, the only few days in the past few months I've done well were when I got a lot of calories from potatoes (as much as 3 lbs a day) with no animal proteins. Yes, I saw that from one of your other threads on protein utilization. Unfortunately my tolerance of animal products (other than gelatin) is very, very low and even though plant proteins are less usable, overall I feel better on plant products for the bulk of my calories. 16 oz a day of beef turned out to be definitely too much, 8 oz still seems to be too much (gauged by my absolute inability to get 98.6F waking temps), perhaps I can experiment with halving it again to 4 oz instead of going to 0, that's one thing I haven't tried yet (Other than eating straight up 0 animal meat which is the only way I can ever get 98.6F waking temps thus far in 4 months of tracking intakes on chronometer and my personal database). I definitely start to feel protein deficiency at under around the 70-80 gram mark (muscle pain/soreness), but more or less feel fine as long as intake is closer to 100-125g or so. Which I believe is pretty much what Ray also said. I am also sedentary like Ray so my protein needs are similar to his.

Potato protein is great. I think a pound of potatoes is equivalent to a liter of milk, with the added benefit that potato will not generate ammonia.
 

Cirion

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Potato protein is great. I think a pound of potatoes is equivalent to a liter of milk, with the added benefit that potato will not generate ammonia.

Interesting, I did not know this. Thanks. This possibly explains a lot...
 

Mufasa

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Interesting, thanks for this 60-70% number.

Let's say then your minimum protein requirements are 100 grams a day. So you could get 70 gram from gelatin, and only need to get 30 gram elsewhere? That would mean roughly 5-6 oz of meat or a couple cups of milk. Taking this further, could this mean you could eat Vegan style and not even meat at all as long as you got lots of gelatin (Using quality plant proteins like potatoes for the rest of the protein needs)? So not technically vegan, but Vegan sans the gelatin. FWIW, I briefly tried vegan (but with gelatin) a couple months ago and actually felt very, very good in terms of energy and mental clarity and looking back at old cronometer logs had some high gelatin intake days alongside low or no meat.

Although now, with more knowledge under my belt, I think the vegan benefits were from lowering acidity in general, which I can also achieve by eating a low or zero salt diet (having sodium bicarbonate instead), and also no more mexican colas (avoid the phosphorus acid) but this modified "Vegan" diet is nice to have as a fallback option if all else fails.

Regardless, this definitely seems to hint at my suspicions that not much animal meat is needed, and I can definitely cut my intake at like 8 oz a day as long as I get enough gelatin and potatoes etc.

I would watch out for your arginine/lysine balance if you start eating a lot of gelatine, my girlfriend became quite suspectible for viruses when eating a lot of gelatin, taking lysine with it, solved this completely.
 

Mossy

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I would watch out for your arginine/lysine balance if you start eating a lot of gelatine, my girlfriend became quite suspectible for viruses when eating a lot of gelatin, taking lysine with it, solved this completely.
Thanks for sharing. I wonder if it would be just as effective to drink more milk for the lysine.
 

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