Glycine Ineffective Unless "Attached" To Acompanying Nutrient

DMF

Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2012
Messages
427
Like GABA which needs to be combined with vitamin B6 in order to cross the blood-brain-barrier, mustn't the same principal apply to glycine for taking it all by itself seems utterly useless?
 

Peater

Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Messages
2,638
Location
Here
The knee bone, which is in turn attached to the leg bone.

My research on the foot bone is on going.
 
OP
D

DMF

Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2012
Messages
427
People use Gaba suppliments thinking it's doing something good - when in fact little gets past the blood-brain barrier, so I was thinking the same might be for glycine. It's a nootropic model.
 

Frankdee20

Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2017
Messages
3,772
Location
Sun Coast, USA
People use Gaba suppliments thinking it's doing something good - when in fact little gets past the blood-brain barrier, so I was thinking the same might be for glycine. It's a nootropic model.

Yeah but GABA probably doesn’t cross because it’s a larger molecule than say Glycine.
 

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
People use Gaba suppliments thinking it's doing something good - when in fact little gets past the blood-brain barrier, so I was thinking the same might be for glycine. It's a nootropic model.

GABA does cross the BBB, albeit not freely. The whole thing about it not being able to cross the BBB was started by pharma fraudulent claims since they sell a lot of GABA-agonist drugs that would have no chance of competing with the dirt cheap natural neurotransmitter available from every vitamin store. Take 2g of GABA and see if it causes you to either get very sleepy or affect coordination, balance or even perception of light. Since all of these are controlled by the brain there is no explanation other than GABA crossing BBB and affecting the CNS directly.
And no, glycine does not need anything attached to it to be effective.

Neurotransmitters as food supplements: the effects of GABA on brain and behavior
"...Initial studies from the fifties reported GABA’s inability to cross the BBB (Van Gelder and Elliott, 1958). Since then, several research groups have replicated this finding (Roberts et al., 1958; Kuriyama and Sze, 1971; Knudsen et al., 1988). However, a number of studies have reported that GABA does cross the BBB, albeit in small amounts (Frey and Löscher, 1980; Löscher, 1981; Löscher and Frey, 1982; Al-Sarraf, 2002; Shyamaladevi et al., 2002). This discrepancy could be the result of variation in chemical compounds, method of administration (i.e., oral versus injection), and the species used."

"...Interestingly, evidence has been found for the presence of a GABA-transporter in the BBB (Takanaga et al., 2001). The expression of such a transporter indicates that GABA can enter and/or exit the brain through facilitated transport. In mice, the brain efflux rate for GABA was found to be 17 times higher than the influx rate (Kakee et al., 2001). This complicates the interpretation of GABA concentrations in the brain, and it is possible that this may have led to an underestimation of the extent to which GABA is able to cross the BBB. That is, some studies may have found little evidence for GABA’s BBB permeability because of the high efflux rate."
 

johnwester130

Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2015
Messages
3,563
yes, most people would want to take gelatin, not glycine, with p5p

and maybe b12, you need more b vitamins on gelatin
 

Frankdee20

Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2017
Messages
3,772
Location
Sun Coast, USA
GABA does cross the BBB, albeit not freely. The whole thing about it not being able to cross the BBB was started by pharma fraudulent claims since they sell a lot of GABA-agonist drugs that would have no chance of competing with the dirt cheap natural neurotransmitter available from every vitamin store. Take 2g of GABA and see if it causes you to either get very sleepy or affect coordination, balance or even perception of light. Since all of these are controlled by the brain there is no explanation other than GABA crossing BBB and affecting the CNS directly.
And no, glycine does not need anything attached to it to be effective.

Neurotransmitters as food supplements: the effects of GABA on brain and behavior
"...Initial studies from the fifties reported GABA’s inability to cross the BBB (Van Gelder and Elliott, 1958). Since then, several research groups have replicated this finding (Roberts et al., 1958; Kuriyama and Sze, 1971; Knudsen et al., 1988). However, a number of studies have reported that GABA does cross the BBB, albeit in small amounts (Frey and Löscher, 1980; Löscher, 1981; Löscher and Frey, 1982; Al-Sarraf, 2002; Shyamaladevi et al., 2002). This discrepancy could be the result of variation in chemical compounds, method of administration (i.e., oral versus injection), and the species used."

"...Interestingly, evidence has been found for the presence of a GABA-transporter in the BBB (Takanaga et al., 2001). The expression of such a transporter indicates that GABA can enter and/or exit the brain through facilitated transport. In mice, the brain efflux rate for GABA was found to be 17 times higher than the influx rate (Kakee et al., 2001). This complicates the interpretation of GABA concentrations in the brain, and it is possible that this may have led to an underestimation of the extent to which GABA is able to cross the BBB. That is, some studies may have found little evidence for GABA’s BBB permeability because of the high efflux rate."

There’s definitely noticeable effects from this supplement. But introducing it via supplementation, wouldn’t that cause down regulation of natural CNS production?
 

Frankdee20

Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2017
Messages
3,772
Location
Sun Coast, USA
There’s definitely noticeable effects from this supplement. But introducing it via supplementation, wouldn’t that cause down regulation of natural CNS production?

Also, I found it to yield results less effectively, and transient at best over a few weeks. Isn’t that the case with these amino acids used for neurotransmitter substrate? I’m sure people noticed less effects from Tyrosine after time. But are these reduced effectiveness anecdotes examples of saturated transporters or just down regulation ?
 

Mito

Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2016
Messages
2,554
GABA does cross the BBB, albeit not freely. The whole thing about it not being able to cross the BBB was started by pharma fraudulent claims since they sell a lot of GABA-agonist drugs that would have no chance of competing with the dirt cheap natural neurotransmitter available from every vitamin store. Take 2g of GABA and see if it causes you to either get very sleepy or affect coordination, balance or even perception of light. Since all of these are controlled by the brain there is no explanation other than GABA crossing BBB and affecting the CNS directly.
And no, glycine does not need anything attached to it to be effective.

Neurotransmitters as food supplements: the effects of GABA on brain and behavior
"...Initial studies from the fifties reported GABA’s inability to cross the BBB (Van Gelder and Elliott, 1958). Since then, several research groups have replicated this finding (Roberts et al., 1958; Kuriyama and Sze, 1971; Knudsen et al., 1988). However, a number of studies have reported that GABA does cross the BBB, albeit in small amounts (Frey and Löscher, 1980; Löscher, 1981; Löscher and Frey, 1982; Al-Sarraf, 2002; Shyamaladevi et al., 2002). This discrepancy could be the result of variation in chemical compounds, method of administration (i.e., oral versus injection), and the species used."

"...Interestingly, evidence has been found for the presence of a GABA-transporter in the BBB (Takanaga et al., 2001). The expression of such a transporter indicates that GABA can enter and/or exit the brain through facilitated transport. In mice, the brain efflux rate for GABA was found to be 17 times higher than the influx rate (Kakee et al., 2001). This complicates the interpretation of GABA concentrations in the brain, and it is possible that this may have led to an underestimation of the extent to which GABA is able to cross the BBB. That is, some studies may have found little evidence for GABA’s BBB permeability because of the high efflux rate."
Some studies suggest GABA being able to cross the BBB is a symptom of suboptimal BBB health.

A GABA-EEG test of the blood-brain barrier near epileptic foci. - PubMed - NCBI

The permeability of the blood-brain barrier (BBB) to gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) in the region of an epileptic focus may be assessed by infusing GABA and measuring a change in epileptic spike activity on the EEG. GABA does not cross the normal BBB but will suppress epileptic spike activity when it does cross where the BBB is damaged. 9 alumina-cobalt experimental epileptic foci were all initially suppressible, but 7 then became unsuppressible . When the foci were irradiated to lower the BBB, all 7 became temporarily suppressible. The experiments demonstrate that (1) epileptic foci can be equally active both with the BBB 'open' and 'closed'; (2) the intravenous GABA-EEG test can detect whether the BBB near the epileptic focus is open to GABA, and (3) anatomic tests of BBB integrity (in these experiments intravenous trypan blue) cannot determine if whether BBB near the focus is 'open' to GABA. Since the intravenous GABA-EEG test reveals the permeability of the BBB in the immediate environment of the epileptic focus, it may be very useful in the selection of a susceptible therapeutic group for inhibitory amino acid therapy.
 

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
Some studies suggest GABA being able to cross the BBB is a symptom of suboptimal BBB health.

A GABA-EEG test of the blood-brain barrier near epileptic foci. - PubMed - NCBI

The permeability of the blood-brain barrier (BBB) to gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) in the region of an epileptic focus may be assessed by infusing GABA and measuring a change in epileptic spike activity on the EEG. GABA does not cross the normal BBB but will suppress epileptic spike activity when it does cross where the BBB is damaged. 9 alumina-cobalt experimental epileptic foci were all initially suppressible, but 7 then became unsuppressible . When the foci were irradiated to lower the BBB, all 7 became temporarily suppressible. The experiments demonstrate that (1) epileptic foci can be equally active both with the BBB 'open' and 'closed'; (2) the intravenous GABA-EEG test can detect whether the BBB near the epileptic focus is open to GABA, and (3) anatomic tests of BBB integrity (in these experiments intravenous trypan blue) cannot determine if whether BBB near the focus is 'open' to GABA. Since the intravenous GABA-EEG test reveals the permeability of the BBB in the immediate environment of the epileptic focus, it may be very useful in the selection of a susceptible therapeutic group for inhibitory amino acid therapy.

Yes, but it depends on the flux rate. Like I said, it crosses but not freely like other similar amino acids. Speaking of which, since glycine, taurine and beta alanine all cross the BBB and GABA is so similar there is no good reason to expect it won't too. Even Wikipedia states that the opinion on GABA and BBB has changed with more recent studies.
gamma-Aminobutyric acid - Wikipedia
 

NathanK

Member
Joined
May 30, 2015
Messages
684
Location
Austin, TX
Like GABA which needs to be combined with vitamin B6 in order to cross the blood-brain-barrier, mustn't the same principal apply to glycine for taking it all by itself seems utterly useless?
I don't think all of the positive studies on glycine used any kind of carrier or mix to make it effective. That should answer any doubt.

If I take glycine isolated then I will usually take it with taurine (and possibly BA if I have any on hand) and even then at night. I find that the two make a good nighttime/de-stress cocktail.
 

Frankdee20

Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2017
Messages
3,772
Location
Sun Coast, USA
I don't think all of the positive studies on glycine used any kind of carrier or mix to make it effective. That should answer any doubt.

If I take glycine isolated then I will usually take it with taurine (and possibly BA if I have any on hand) and even then at night. I find that the two make a good nighttime/de-stress cocktail.

I found the Glycinate in magnesium Glycinate dopes me out more than citrate let’s say, on a MG per MG basis. That proves Glycine crosses and elicits result
 

Sucrates

Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2014
Messages
619
GABA does cross the BBB, albeit not freely. The whole thing about it not being able to cross the BBB was started by pharma fraudulent claims since they sell a lot of GABA-agonist drugs that would have no chance of competing with the dirt cheap natural neurotransmitter available from every vitamin store. Take 2g of GABA and see if it causes you to either get very sleepy or affect coordination, balance or even perception of light. Since all of these are controlled by the brain there is no explanation other than GABA crossing BBB and affecting the CNS directly.
And no, glycine does not need anything attached to it to be effective.

Do not take 2g of GABA without prior experience. That much gave me low blood pressure and made my breathing very shallow and I felt like I couldn't breathe, numb extremities etc. I'm sure it's fine for some people some of the time but this could be dangerous.
 

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
Do not take 2g of GABA without prior experience. That much gave me low blood pressure and made my breathing very shallow and I felt like I couldn't breathe, numb extremities etc. I'm sure it's fine for some people some of the time but this could be dangerous.

Right, I meant it as a test to confirm that oral GABA is affects the CNS in ways that are known to involve the GABA system/receptors. I did not meant it as suggesting 2g is the dose people should take. Usually, 100mg-500mg oral GABA have been used in studies on diabetes, anxiety and sleep quality. So, much lower doses also have effects.
 

Frankdee20

Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2017
Messages
3,772
Location
Sun Coast, USA
Right, I meant it as a test to confirm that oral GABA is affects the CNS in ways that are known to involve the GABA system/receptors. I did not meant it as suggesting 2g is the dose people should take. Usually, 100mg-500mg oral GABA have been used in studies on diabetes, anxiety and sleep quality. So, much lower doses also have effects.

I’ve began at 750-1500 mg, even twice a day. It’s noticeable, I used it for anxiety and it helps. I only got the tingles and shallow breathing from exceeding that. Seemed to feel transient short lived effects though. However, GABA systems are known for stabilizing brain waves, and rythyms. I’ll bet it was doing that in the big picture, over time, rather than noticing abrupt effects. It proved to be that in the end, way too much, making me have no spark to the personality. Just even keeled. It just didn’t prove helpful for depression, anxiety, yes. At that point I said, something is still off. That edge, that extroverted fire, that power to the personality. What really is it then ? Dopamine ? Tyrosine just made me too nervous, anyway that’s off track. GABA is noticeable, that’s the point.
 

Koveras

Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2015
Messages
720
Do not take 2g of GABA without prior experience. That much gave me low blood pressure and made my breathing very shallow and I felt like I couldn't breathe, numb extremities etc. I'm sure it's fine for some people some of the time but this could be dangerous.

Right, I meant it as a test to confirm that oral GABA is affects the CNS in ways that are known to involve the GABA system/receptors. I did not meant it as suggesting 2g is the dose people should take. Usually, 100mg-500mg oral GABA have been used in studies on diabetes, anxiety and sleep quality. So, much lower doses also have effects.

I think there was some evidence GABA can potentiate insulin release and cause hypoglycaemia - especially in higher doses and for those with low-normal blood sugar to begin with.

Not sure if those are hypoglycemic symptoms sans adrenaline rush?

For those that find higher doses excitatory it could be from the counter-regulatory response to that low blood sugar.
 

Sucrates

Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2014
Messages
619
Right, I meant it as a test to confirm that oral GABA is affects the CNS in ways that are known to involve the GABA system/receptors. I did not meant it as suggesting 2g is the dose people should take. Usually, 100mg-500mg oral GABA have been used in studies on diabetes, anxiety and sleep quality. So, much lower doses also have effects.

I didn't read it as instructing people to take 2g but I thought it could be interpreted that way.
 

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
I think there was some evidence GABA can potentiate insulin release and cause hypoglycaemia - especially in higher doses and for those with low-normal blood sugar to begin with

Yep, it has also been found to cause hypoglycemia without insulin change. This is why there are a few trials underway with 100mg GABA for insulin resistance. GABA is easily metabolizable to succinic acid via the GABA shunt, and both GABA and succinic acid inhibit FAO, which would explain the improved glucose tolerance.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom