Glycine As A Temporary Alternative To Gelatin, Since No Good Brands Are Available?

Discussion in 'Supplements, Pharmaceutical Drugs' started by _lppaiva, Sep 8, 2019.

  1. _lppaiva

    _lppaiva Member

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    Hi guys, first "official" post here.

    I'm an 18 year old Brazilian, so keep in mind supplements you recommend me are usually outside of my budget, since I have to convert from my currency to dollars (currently I'll spend four times as much).

    Therefore, I'm trying to figure out what to look for in supplements where I'm from, since I'm probably a Ray Peat Pioneer around here.

    Ex: No additives, no silica dioxide, no oils, etc

    One major issue is that a major supplement I need is Gelatin, as I consume lots of meat, but there is no brand around here testing for heavy metals. I've found studies showing 22x the recommended dose of Chromium in commercial gelatin, and no collagen brands have any tests.

    I know Gelatine has many aspects besides glycine, but being that it's the predominant aminoacids in gelatin, can I temporarily do with glycine supplements alone? Its the cheapest and easiest to find around here, and some studies have shown it has an effect on heavy metal detox, specially lead (which interestingly is the predominant risk in bone broth)

    This is temporary, as I also can't source good bones to do bone broth for now. I occasionally do beef and chicken broth when I stew either of them, but I can't really trust the bones.

    Also, my main issue isn't methionine or Cysteine, but Tryptophan (symptoms of high serotonin), so I'm not so sure glycine is the way to go. Any aminoacids that balances out Tryptophan? I heard it's more about ratios than amounts.
     
  2. milk_lover

    milk_lover Member

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    For me, glycine was a really bad choice. Eating muscle meat without glycine was more healing than doing so with glycine. I think glycine in most brands is not clean. It made my face puffy and my body jiggly which are things I don’t look for. Although I asked Peat before and he thinks taurine can’t replace glycine/gelatin when eating muscle meat, I think taurine can somewhat balance the bad amino acids because they are so similar in structure but taurine with extra sulphur .
     
  3. yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    I haven't used glycine but I've used both the gelatin and collagen hydrolysate from Great Lakes. Lately, I no longer am able to get them from the US cheaply as the cost of shipping has increased (due to change in personal circumstances) and I had to find it from food. I guess I'm not missing out much if what milk_lover says is the case.

    It's certainly more work to get glycine/gelatin from food sources. Since I do my own food shopping, It's not that much extra work for me. Cooking it would be harder, but it's easier that I get some help with cooking. One thing that's easy to prepare is pork tendons. I can buy a kilo of it for about $4, and I have it steamed for 4-6 hours, and with water added, it gives a pork jello that I can eat for appetizers, with some sauce (Google pork tendon appetizer, Chinese). I pour the jello into a tray and let it cool. Once cooled, I put in ref. Once cold, I take out the contents from the mold. It's one piece of jello. I make it into slices and eat it for appetizer.

    Pork tendons are great. I stay away from beef hide as they have endotoxins. It also tastes hideous. But since you're from Brazil, beef tendons would be plentfiful.

    Lastly, I don't trust powdered gelatin even from Great Lakes. It's hard to keep a product free from glyphosate when there's great demand. Eventually standards would have to be watered down. Not saying pork is free from glyphosate though. It's hard to escape from glyphosate given how Monsanto had government agencies all under their payola.
     
  4. tankasnowgod

    tankasnowgod Member

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    Question..... why is gelatin the only protein that you question? Glyphostae is widely used, and glycine is one of the most common amino acids, and it appears in every natural protein. Including mucle meat, beef, chicken, pork, liver, milk, eggs, gelatin, soy, potato,orange juice, literally anything that isn't an isolated amino acid made in a lab. So why is gelatin the only protein that people are concerned with? Since gelatin has so much glycine, maybe that's a good reason to up your intake instead of not trusting it.
     
  5. yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    As I undestand it, it's reported that glycine is the amino acid that's easily displaced by glyphosate. I don't recall anyone talking about other amino acids being displaced by glyphosate, do you?

    I haven't said anything about reducing gelatin intake, I'm all for it. I just prefer sourcing my glycine from food than from powders that's gone through processing where you really don't know what the input really is. But this is a preference, as I can't really trust the gelatin that I get from food either. The whole commercial ecosystem from where we source our food has Monsanto's Roundup written all over it.
     
  6. Adrenaline

    Adrenaline Member

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    I'm using pure Glycine for 1 week. Whenever I take, it feels so good and calm. My sleep is improved too.
     
  7. Adrienlcrx

    Adrienlcrx Member

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    What dosage of glycine did you use to get these bad effects @milk_lover ?
     
  8. ExCarniv

    ExCarniv Member

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    Glycine is a good choice.

    I thought Brazil have lots of pasture raised cows, I'm using a gelatin source that is from grass fed beef from Brazil.

    I'm from Argentina and I try to get the best I can, but sometimes is better to have something than nothing, taking Glycine is better than eat lots of muscle meat without it.
    I wouldn't stress about perfection while being from a third world country.

    Take Glycine for now, till you can source good bones to make broth or a good source of gelatin.
     
  9. milk_lover

    milk_lover Member

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    Around 2 or 3 grams per meal. Not much but the effect was clear not in my head.
     
  10. tankasnowgod

    tankasnowgod Member

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    Yes, glycine is the only amino acid I've heard that glyphosate can displace. But so what? Every other protein I listed also has glycine in it that can be displaced. Why is it only powdered gelatin that you distrust? Why not commercial meat or milk? Or any plant? Plants are the ones that get sprayed directly with Roundup.

    The only logic seems to be that, since gelatin contains a lot of glycine, that it must have lots of glyphosate also. But I've seen no tests to back up this idea.

    The counter idea is just as valid- since glyphosate is pretty much universal, you should really increase your consumption of gelatin, so that you can displace any glyphosate you consume.
     
  11. yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    It seems to follow the same logic as saying all water is the same, whether it's got .00001% giardia or 1% giardia in it. Or air with .04% CO2 is as good as air with 5% CO2 in it. The concentration matters. If the glyphosate is everywhere, I'm not going to just eat everything indiscriminately just because that is so. It's also like people who cop out when confused by all the blather in the media about what's healthy or not, they give up and say "eat balanced" all the while downing pesticides and toxins in the food web wantonly.
    I distrust powdered gelatin because I don't want a thing I take to be healthy to become something that causes me be less healthy. Especially when I'm paying extra for it. And especially when I don't really know the source, and especially when there's no guarantee. And even more so when beef hide is included, which may contain endotoxins.

    You probably use powdered gelatin a lot and you do it for the convenience over preparing food that's rich in gelatin. And if you don't have the time and even if you do, you prefer to do something else over the drudgery of preparing it, then you have no choice but to take powdered gelatin. But I'll make the time, and I'll choose the source of gelatin that I take. Like I said, I have no assurance that it's glyphosate-free either. One thing I can do though is minimize on the endotoxin by avoiding beef hide.

    It's not only powdered gelatin that I distrust, but that is a subject that is more relevant in this thread.

    That's the logic, and it's not false logic. False logic is when we think otherwise. No testing also doesn't prove the counter argument. And this tilts my decisionmarking towards what's more logical.

    How can that be valid? So what you're saying is to take more glyphosate-contaminated gelatin (the substance that's going to be more disproportionately affected by glyphosate contamination) to displace gelatin coming from eating substances that have less glyphosate contamination.
     
  12. OP
    _lppaiva

    _lppaiva Member

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    I honestly would love to get it from food haha, but I don't know if that's an option around here. I just went to my butcher to see if they sold the scraps of meat and cartilage, and they say the provider takes it back, probably to sell to gelatin companies. I found a place that sells hydrolyzed collagen and BCAA by weight, but am not sure if their safe.

    The glyphosate part worries me too, but I think that the benefits outweigh the risks, as long as your not consuming copious amounts. Perhaps if you can find a local farmers that can provide you the tendons? I try my best but it's really hard to source quality stuff in the city and I'm only moving in February. but with all Ive learned, I can't just go back to eating a regular diet, knowing all the downsides. It's hard man lol
     
  13. OP
    _lppaiva

    _lppaiva Member

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    Its hard to explain. We do have lots of pasture raised cows. 88% of our cattle is grassfed, but since it's the "norm" here, it's hard to distinguish between quality meat or not. Grass fed cattle can still be pumped with hormones, etc, for example. In other places, grass fed is USUALLY a more guarantee of quality as it's marketed as such, but here it's just normal.

    Also, here is similar to Asia as in we are really disconnected from the countryside. There are no farmers market, or local farmers where I can buy from. Their like 4-6h away, and we just don't have the habit of going to these "long distances" on a weekly basis.

    For example, I spend some days looking up studies on gelatin sourcing here, looking for brands, researching. None of them offer heavy metal testing. I only found some info on Chromium and all of the brands had at least 22x more than allowed.

    But I do agree. Something is better than nothing. Thanks, I'll look into buying some and trying it out at least :)
     
  14. OP
    _lppaiva

    _lppaiva Member

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    I am a lot like you in the sense I enjoy getting things from natural sources, specially since it gives me at least a certain degree of controle. Sure, I can't control what the plant was grown on or what the animal is fed, but it's easier to know the quality of the products if you buying the "raw material" and doing it for yourself.

    But a quote that stuck with me is "you can't be naturally healthy in an unnatural world." Sure we can try to get everything from food, but life just isn't the same as it was 200 or even 60/70 years ago. A lot of modern stressors were added and we need to compensate for those.

    Something that got me worried was this study: Bone Broth Unlikely to Provide Reliable Concentrations of Collagen Precursors Compared With Supplemental Sources of Collagen Used in Collagen Researc... - PubMed - NCBI

    I think it's odd, as the main characteristic of Glycine and proline is it's ability to solidify in the Gelatinous texture, and most of my "beef broths" (I do a lot of roast chuck and drink the broth) are usually really thick and dense. I don't really buy it, but it still got me thinking if I'm always getting what I think I'm getting
     
  15. yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    Over where I'm at, the tendons are separated from the parts of the carcass and sold separately, and they're still hard to get as a lot of it is sold to Chinese restaurants. If you have the hot pot restaurants, Korean or Chinese, you can order the beef tendons and they're tender and tasty. The pork tendons are more easily found, but beef tendons harder to get. See if you can find pork ears. It's easy to find. And beef oxtail as well. Pork ears are much cheaper, as well as chicken feet. Beef oxtail more expensive. You just have to spend some time on the internet to start with some tasty dishes you can make from them. The hardest part is getting started on the kitchen. But once you get the hang of it, it becomes pretty much a matter of routine- a part of your lifestyle.
     
  16. tankasnowgod

    tankasnowgod Member

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    This get right to the heart of the matter here. The logic is "Gelatin has the most glycine in it, and glyphosate can replace glycine, therefore, gelatin must have the most glyphosate of any food." I understand the logic, but I think it is overly simplistic, and not based at all in what happens in the real world.

    Glyphosate primarily comes from Roundup, a weed killer sprayed directly on plants. It is not sprayed directly on animals, especially livestock of any kind. Therefore, I would expect that plants sprayed with Roundup would have the highest concentration of glyphosate. Again, as I stated before, glycine is found in significant concentrations in plant proteins, including potato and soy. Animals primarily get exposure to glyphosate indirectly, either through inhaling it or eating it as part of food. Animals have better detox systems than plants. In addition to this, cows have rumens which would add an extra layer of detoxification. Peat even spoke to this issue when it came to high levels of strontium, and he found that stontium levels were much higher in plants like spinach than they were in milk. Although the common advice was to avoid milk and eat plants to avoid stronium, which was completely backwards.

    So I reject the idea that gelatin is more disproportionately affected by glyphosate contamination than other proteins, especially plant based proteins. I also don't see any evidence that it would contain either a higher proportion (or even a higher total amount) of glyphosate than other animal proteins, like muscle meat, milk, and eggs. It's just a theory, based on some amino acid values, and not backed up by any solid data. I do use powdered gelatin, and I laid out the reasoning in the above paragraph. You are free to disagree, but my theory is that gelatin by far has the highest glycine to glyphosate ratio of any food.

    You misrepresented my idea. I think other foods have more glyphosate contamination than gelatin. Again, you just assumed gelatin has a lot of glyphosate since it has a lot of glycine, but again, no tests to back up this idea. Stated another way, I think it's wise eat high glycine animal foods to displace the higher amount of glyphosate you get from eating plant based foods, due to plants being directly sprayed with Roundup.
     
  17. yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    I don't understand why you want to compare glyphosate content in plants to glyphosate content in gelatin (from animals) if not only to boost your argument against why I should not narrowly confine my objection to the use of powdered gelatin.

    Do I have to specifically say gelatin is less contaminated than plants sprayed with Roundup to make your argument more coherent? Do you assume that because I make no mention of glyphosate contamination in certain plant-based foods such as soy and corn, that I endorse them?

    Let's not be disingenuous and conflate things. You can defend the use of powdered gelatin without resorting to such tactics. I've already voiced my concerns on powdered gelatin and it's pretty clear what I've said and what I haven't said.
     
  18. tankasnowgod

    tankasnowgod Member

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    Well, I brought up the comparison of plant vs animal because plant foods have actually been tested for glyphosate, and the results have been reported-

    Breakfast With a Dose of Roundup?

    Nowhere on that list was any animal food listed. I think foods that actually have tests done that show they contain glyphosate are more of a concern than a food that has never had a positive test for glyphosate, ever. If you or anyone else has info regarding glyphosate levels of gelatin, or any other animal protein for that matter, I would like to see it.

    The idea that glyphosate might be incorporated into gelatin/collagen was proposed by Stephanie Seneff, PhD in 2017. Here is her theory, as posted on the Weston A. Price website-

    https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/environmental-toxins/glyphosate-in-collagen/

    If you read through the article, you realize she is only presenting a hypothesis that glyphosate could substitute for glycine and proline, but offers no direct evidence. If you read the comments, some people express doubt if it's even possible. A couple people also link to tests on the Great Lakes website that apparently showed that Great Lakes Gelatin had no detectable levels of glyphosate on two separate occasions, but as the links are now broken, I can't confirm. As far as I can tell, your objection to gelatin is based on a theory, and nothing more.
     
  19. yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    Thanks for the reminder that the concern of glyphosate substituting for glycine is still based on a theory. I hope that it would just stay that way.

    There is already a study that came out last month on it that allays these fears, although the experiment is limited in duration of 6 days:

    Glyphosate does not substitute for glycine in proteins of actively dividing mammalian cells. - PubMed - NCBI

    I think that more studies are needed though, especially those of longer duration, or based on analyzing animal protein from animals fed and grown on GMO-containing feeds.

    I would like to test my urine glyphosate levels, but it's not available where I live. Since I've been avoiding GMO-contaminated plant food, but can't avoid eating livestock and poultry that's fed with GMO feeds, I could probably gauge indirectly whether eating animal protein would cause me to be exposed to glyphosate. If a glyphosate test would turn out to be high, would it be reasonable for me to conclude that I'm getting my glyphosate from eating GMO-tainted livestock and poultry?
     
  20. methylenewhite

    methylenewhite Member

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    You have traditional dish called mocoto or mocotó. Pressure cooked beef or pork leg cartilage. It's cheap to buy and make yourself. Almost any Brazilian family has a pressure cooker. 1 kilo of mocotó costs about 8RS here in Nordeste. And every butcher shop here in Nordeste has beef snank - mão de vaca should be about 12rs per kilo. It's almost fat free and has lots of glicine.


    Vai num frigorífico e pede mocotó. Ainda tem outro opção mão de vaca que tem teor alto de glycina.
    Prato tipicamente brasileiro, mocotó previne envelhecimento e câncer
     
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