Glycemic Index For Proteins

[shepherdgirl]

Are measurements of the effect of different proteins on blood sugar available? The glycemic indices all serm to completely ignore protein, saying it has a "negligible" effect.

 

[shepherdgirl]

FYI everyone, I found this article from optimisingnutrition.com which references the insulin index of foods as well as a doctoral thesis ( Clinical Application of the Food Insulin Index to Diabetes Mellitus (Kirstine Bell, September 2014)) containing a food insulin index database. Great info!

 

[shepherdgirl]

Still a bit confused about glycemic index. According to Univ. of Sydney (www.glycemicindex.com),

The Glycemic Index (GI) is a relative ranking of carbohydrate in foods according to how they affect blood glucose levels.

My understanding is that proteins can't have a glycemic index value because they lower blood sugar. Since GI is a relative ranking, I don't think it can express a loss in blood sugar, only relative gains in blood sugar. So that would mean that anything that lowers blood sugar by any amount has a GI of zero, which could easily be taken(incorrectly) to mean that a) proteins do nothing to blood sugar, and b)they all have the same exact action on blood sugar-zero. I think that the insulin index, on the other hand, does give a relative comparison for proteins.
Is my understanding of this issue correct?

 

[artemis]

My understanding is that proteins can't have a glycemic index value because they lower blood sugar.

This is not correct, protein foods do not lower blood sugar. They do raise it, just not as much as carbohydrates do. This graph from the article you linked to shows some comparisons:

I've read a lot of Marty Kendall's work, he has put out some really helpful stuff.

 

[shepherdgirl]

Hi artemis,
Thanks for your response. I will try to find Marty Kendall's work online. What is confusing me is that RP seems to mention that proteins lower sugar:

Rather than the sustained hyperglycemia which is measured for determining the glycemic index, I think the “diabetogenic” or “carcinogenic” action of starch has to do with the stress reaction that follows the intense stimulation of insulin release. This is most easily seen after a large amount of protein is eaten. Insulin is secreted in response to the amino acids, and besides stimulating cells to take up the amino acids and convert them into protein, the insulin also lowers the blood sugar. This decrease in blood sugar stimulates the formation of many hormones, including cortisol, and under the influence of cortisol both sugar and fat are produced by the breakdown of proteins, including those already forming the tissues of the body. At the same time, adrenalin and several other hormones are causing free fatty acids to appear in the blood.

-Ray Peat, from "Glycemia, starch, and sugar in context"

I thought that insulin lowered blood sugar, but carbs such as potato, which can spike insulin and consequently lower sugar, have a high glycemic index because the starch in potato eventually raises blood sugar again. Maybe that is not correct? Is there actually some carbohydrate in muscle tissue? Why would protein bring the sugar back up? Still sort of confused about this.

 

[artemis]

The protein doesn't lower the blood sugar directly, it's the release of insulin that lowers the blood sugar. Not sure what you mean by "raising blood sugar again," or "bring the sugar back up." That's not a thing -- the food raises the blood sugar, then insulin lowers it. After that time, the food is well downstream in the digestive tract, it doesn't bring the sugar back up.

There is carbohydrate in muscle tissue cells, in the form of glycogen, which is the storage form of carbohydrate.

I like Marty Kendall but I have a hard time listening to his videos because of the way he pronounces the word "insulin." He says it like "inch-lin," it drives me crazy!

 

[LucH]

Are measurements of the effect of different proteins on blood sugar available? The glycemic indices all serm to completely ignore protein, saying it has a "negligible" effect.

See this link, meat and fish paragraph.
insulinogenic foods | optimising nutrition
ant this list, more "scientific"
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/66/5/1264.full.pdf
Note: some amino acids are more insulinemic than others.

 

[shepherdgirl]

This is not correct, protein foods do not lower blood sugar. They do raise it, just not as much as carbohydrates do.

Thanks @artemis and @LucH for your answers - still looking into the refs you provided.
In confusing myself further, I found this on mark's daily apple:

While Holt and her co-authors found a high correlation between glycemic index and insulin index measurements, they stumbled upon an intriguing exception. High protein, virtually no-carb foods like meat and eggs, while low on the glycemic index, measured high on the insulin index. In other words, while the meat and eggs didn’t cause a spike in blood sugar the way moist carbohydrates do, they did result in an unexpectedly significant rise in insulin.

-Worker Bee, "Reader Response: Insulin Index"
(sorry for font size change here - I can't seem to fix it, grrr... )
So there is a small increase in sugar, but the insulin rise is unexpectedly large.
However, Worker Bee credits glucagon for preventing a big blood sugar drop. As blood sugar drops, I am wondering about its relationship with metabolism- at what sugar levels does the Randle cycle shift a cell to the stress metabolism? Is the metabolic change continuous or does it toggle to one or the other?
Also, how does the stress metabolism differ from states of ketosis and diabetic shock? If glucagon kicks in when meat is digested to prevent a huge drop in blood sugar, where is it when the body is digesting its own muscle meat and going into diabetic shock?

 

[noordinary]

I found this podcast episode "Is insulin really a response to blood glucose?"
https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2017/07/30/insulin-really-response-blood-glucose/
to be really informative on insulin - glycogen- blood sugar - macronutrients connection.

 

[shepherdgirl]

@noordinary
Thanks for posting this - looks like exactly what I need to listen to!!

 

[Elephanto]

The protein doesn't lower the blood sugar directly, it's the release of insulin that lowers the blood sugar. Not sure what you mean by "raising blood sugar again," or "bring the sugar back up." That's not a thing -- the food raises the blood sugar, then insulin lowers it. After that time, the food is well downstream in the digestive tract, it doesn't bring the sugar back up.

There is carbohydrate in muscle tissue cells, in the form of glycogen, which is the storage form of carbohydrate.

I like Marty Kendall but I have a hard time listening to his videos because of the way he pronounces the word "insulin." He says it like "inch-lin," it drives me crazy!

You started by saying, in your first post : "They do raise blood sugar". Then you retract yourself and tell us, oh no they don't lower blood sugar directly, it's the following insulin release that does. Please don't confuse people with bad knowledge.

To OP :

Protein should never be eaten alone, they also lower the glycemic index of every carbs when eaten at the same time of that carb (that's a good thing). And so does 5-10g of saturated fat. Having complete meals means you can mostly stop worrying about high GI carbs, because those measurements are taken when the carb is eaten alone and even watermelon becomes safe when apart of a complete meal.

 

[artemis]

You started by saying, in your first post : "They do raise blood sugar". Then you retract yourself and tell us, oh no they don't lower blood sugar directly, it's the following insulin release that does. Please don't confuse people with bad knowledge.

Bad knowledge? Can you tell me where I show bad knowledge please? I said that protein foods do raise blood sugar, just not as much as carbohydrates do. This is a fact. And I did not retract anything. I then said that protein does not lower blood sugar directly, but the insulin released after eating it does. This is also a fact.

I'm not very knowledgeable about most of things discussed on this forum, so I just read and try to learn. I don't say anything when I don't have a good grasp of the subject, but the OP here was trying to understand this particular topic, whether proteins lower blood sugar or not. I tried to help her to understand. Your post is unnecessarily confrontational, and reminds me why I don't participate more often.