GIVING UP: My Accutane Related Hair Loss Update

[haidut]

Just wanted to add that RP has stated that when you are not eating PUFA and PUFA storage is depleted, there is zero requirement for vitamin E. Vitamin E was only needed to detoxify PUFA. Is this still the correct thinking?

That is my understanding, but he also said it is almost impossible to be completely PUFA free in the modern world so vitamin E is probably indispensable for most people, even if taken only once weekly.

 

[mayweatherking]

ya i took finasteride dude, it's very similar to me too. what other symptoms do you have? i think you need to work on lowering estrogen. can you breathe through your nose OK? try getting blood work, prolactin, vitD, and cholesterol. do you have constipation? i think you need a lot of salt to balance out the liquids in the ray peat diet, so if you don't do that, you will have bad water retention because you all ready have high estrogen.

u need to lower estrogen dude, estrogen is the devil with hair loss i am telling you.. you need a lot of salt to ensure you dont have constipation or sinus pressure in your head.. you need foods that dont increase serotonin due to it causing glycosis.. you need to eat small meals every 2 hrs... everything that lowers estrogen, good thyroid function (so eating basically), calcium, magnesium, salt... once your bowels get moving, you will get the estrogen out.... bamboo shoots w/ ACV, salt, & coco oil until bowels are moving right... carrot salad could be liver burden... vit A is not the cure to hair loss... it is extremely variable based on metabolic rate... if you are losing your hair a lot or you have bad temp.. vit A is a suicide mission, you are nailing nails into a coffin... you need to look at all your symptoms, what are they? dry hands at all, constipation, dry hair, what are they, those give you the clues

 

[Mufasa]

I don't know how it can cause inflammation. But I can tell you that when the DHT derivative is used, scalp inflammation is increased 10 fold. I know, because I tried it. In F2M transition, they will start to bald and lose their hair when they take testosterone. Obviously the male hormones are causing the hair loss. But I don't think they are the root cause like you say. I think the tight scalp environment is what is causing those said hormones to lead to the problem.

But it could also be that testosterone is converted to estrogen, and not DHT.

 

[aarfai]

RP has stated; PUFA blocks vitamin A transport, and PUFA blocks thyroid transport, PUFA also interferes with cholesterol in cells. I suspect accutane blocks both vitamin A and thyroid by binding to the one protein they use for transport; transthyretin, this would cause massive thyroid down regulation. Meaning pregnenolone, progesterone, DHEA and all the downstream hormones are not manufactured, since vitamin A, thyroid and cholesterol are required to do this. Add accutane into a diet with PUFA and lots of PUFA stored, would mean running on cortisol/adrenaline and being estrogen dominant.

I believe people with too much PUFA stored will not have success with real vitamin A for acne.

@Dhair Have you thought of trying high calorie, zero fat/zero PUFA to try and get PUFA out of the equation. I am now 1 month into trying this, skin improving better then any other thing I have tried. Hair is still shedding, but seems to be less then when I started, and dandruff is steadily decreasing. I have been on accutane twice. I am also thinking of experimenting with one very large dose of progesterone, to see if that could knock out some estrogen. I will keep you updated.

How would one unbind accutane from transthyretin?

 

[Orion]

How would one unbind accutane from transthyretin?

I think not taking it would be the only option, since it is a retinoic acid. We need to convert retinyl palmitate/acetate or retinol for example to retinoic acid downstream.

 

[mayweatherking]

But it could also be that testosterone is converted to estrogen, and not DHT.

women all ready have estrogen. and i took DHT and i experienced the hair shedding. extreme itchiness in my head from it. there's no doubt that DHT leads to hair loss. we can see it with how powerful DHT inhibitors are with protecting hair loss. however, theres a reason why DHT is doing it. it's not because DHT is bad... it's because DHT in the right context is bad... looking at DHT in isolation doesn't mean it is good for hair loss, looking at someone who has high estrogen for the past 10 years, yes, pushing DHT into them is not good.

i would never say to inhibit dht to stop hair loss......

if DHT didn't lead to hair loss... why would I experience scalp itch from taking it?? again, not sayin it is the "root cause", but it is probably the last in line to the problem, where estrogen is the root cause.

 

[Dante]

Well, like I said, Big Pharma pays well to PR companies to manipulate public knowledge like that. I saw it happen with the Wiki page on estrone sulfate. If you search the forum you will see me quoting the Wiki article saying that estrone sulfate is a prognostic factor for prostate cancer. That statement is now gone from the page. We live in a brave new world....not.

@haidut, just a doubt, Huggins won nobel prize by chemically castrating (via estrogenic compunds) and stopping prostate carcinoma. In lot of cases androgen abalation therapy helps though in some cases it comes back. why does estrogen supposedly help some people ? ( a genuine doubt here) I know if i search pubmed i will find some papers on estrogen induced prostate cancer as i would find papers on androgen induced prostate carcinoma.http://paact.help/a-prostate-cancer-treatment-that-worked-for-me-by-doug-f-2013/ ( this dude has survived close to 10 years while keeping his T and DHT both to castrate/child levels, he is still alive i guess) So, What exactly is going on here ?.

 

[haidut]

@haidut, just a doubt, Huggins won nobel prize by chemically castrating (via estrogenic compunds) and stopping prostate carcinoma. In lot of cases androgen abalation therapy helps though in some cases it comes back. why does estrogen supposedly help some people ? ( a genuine doubt here) I know if i search pubmed i will find some papers on estrogen induced prostate cancer as i would find papers on androgen induced prostate carcinoma.http://paact.help/a-prostate-cancer-treatment-that-worked-for-me-by-doug-f-2013/ ( this dude has survived close to 10 years while keeping his T and DHT both to castrate/child levels, he is still alive i guess) So, What exactly is going on here ?.

Well, just because his blood T/DHT levels are low it means nothing for the prostate as it can synthesize androgens from precursors at will. In fact, the prostate is the most active androgen paracrine organ (together with the skin) and does not really depend on androgens from serum. So, his prostate androgen levels could be quite high for all we know. Estrogen is a known carcinogen listed on the NIH page, and it promotes all types of cancer. Using it for prostate cancer is just as idiotic as using it for breast cancer. Finasteride and other 5-AR inhibitors cause the aggressive and "castration-resistant" cancer. Look it up. If testosterone can stop terminal, metastatic cancer in its tracks, to me the game is over for the androgen theory of prostate cancer.

 

[Dante]

. If testosterone can stop terminal, metastatic cancer in its tracks, to me the game is over for the androgen theory of prostate cancer.

I think you are referring to your own post which cites this study -
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015...rone-injections-combat-lethal-prostate-tumors
It says that out of 10 patients, 4 person's metastases shrank and in 1 they disappeared. However after 7 months, PSA rose again suggesting renewed growth by the tumors. Plus they were not using T injection daily. They received chemical castration treatment and once every 28 days they gave testosterone injections. I don't think there is enough evidence for end of the game of androgen theory of prostate cancer.Anyways, i am not trying to argue here.

I am not aware of any trial in english language where someone used high dosed DHT for treating prostate cancer. Maybe it might help. I will try to edit wikipedia page on DHT which was rechanged recently blaming it as the causative agent in prostate cancer. BTW one DHt study saying that DHT didn't affect prostate growth during a two year period was funded by BHR pharma( i don't what to make of this)

 

[haidut]

I think you are referring to your own post which cites this study -
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015...rone-injections-combat-lethal-prostate-tumors
It says that out of 10 patients, 4 person's metastases shrank and in 1 they disappeared. However after 7 months, PSA rose again suggesting renewed growth by the tumors. Plus they were not using T injection daily. They received chemical castration treatment and once every 28 days they gave testosterone injections. I don't think there is enough evidence for end of the game of androgen theory of prostate cancer.Anyways, i am not trying to argue here.

I am not aware of any trial in english language where someone used high dosed DHT for treating prostate cancer. Maybe it might help. I will try to edit wikipedia page on DHT which was rechanged recently blaming it as the causative agent in prostate cancer. BTW one DHt study saying that DHT didn't affect prostate growth during a two year period was funded by BHR pharma( i don't what to make of this)

The PSA protein leaks when the prostate cells break down. It is similar to other intracellular proteins such as LDH and cytochrome C, which leak when the cell breaks down. Estrogen is the primary cause of such breakdown. As I posted in another discussion with @Blossom, estrogen is what raises PSA, not DHT. DHT has no effect on PSA levels.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/732585
Steroids that support the integrity of the cell do not cause these proteins to leak out. There is also no biochemical rationale for DHT causing prostate cancer, it is not a "growth" hormone but a differentiating one, and it is a pro-metabolic one vs. estrogen strongly suppressive effect on oxidative metabolism. If these people's PSA rose it is most likely due to the aromatization of T into estrogen. Administering DHT would not have raised PSA and probably would have kept these men in what the medical community likes to call "permanent remission".
High Estradiol and the Prostate
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/04/100419150813.htm
Estrogen action and prostate cancer
The Role of Estrogens in Prostate Carcinogenesis: A Rationale for Chemoprevention
"...DES was the first hormonal therapy for cancer, developed by Huggins and Hodges in 1941. Low-dose DES treatment is still used today as first-line hormonal therapy, albeit not in the United States, and can provide benefit as second-line hormonal therapy.4–6 DES treatment ultimately leads to androgen-refractory prostate cancer, just as androgen-targeted hormonal therapy does. DES is a strong estrogen that suppresses pituitary secretion of luteinizing hormone (LH) and consequently inhibits testicular testosterone production, acting as an antiandrogen; it might also increase serum sex hormone-binding globulin, thereby reducing the amount of free testosterone in the circulation. DES also has direct effects on the prostate, being cytotoxic (eg, as DES-phosphate) and inhibiting proliferation and inducing apoptosis in prostate cancer cells in tissue culture. The mechanism by which DES acts directly on prostate cancer cells is not known with certainty, but it might involve up-regulation of transforming growth factor β, apoptosis, and cell-cell interactions. Whether an estrogen receptor (ER)-mediated action of DES is involved, and if so, by which of the currently known ER subtypes, ER-α or ER-β, is not known. Also unknown is whether estrogens other than DES have similar effects."
"...This raises the possibility that the prostate cancer induced by testosterone in the rat prostate is, at least in part, due to estrogen effects. Supporting this notion, when 5α- dihydrotestosterone (DHT), which cannot be converted to estradiol by aromatase, was given to NBL rats, prostate cancer developed in less than 5% of animals (Bosland and colleagues, unpublished data). However, when estradiol was combined with DHT, tumor incidence increased only to 15%. There are no studies of aromatase inhibitors in this rat model. Thus, precisely how estrogen interacts with androgen in producing prostate cancer in rats is complex and remains unclear. Evidence for such an interaction has come recently from experiments showing that a metabolite of DHT, 5α-androstane- 3β, 17β-diol (3β-androstanediol), has the characteristics of the natural ligand for ER-β.20 Although it has a lower affinity than estradiol for ER-β, it is present in the prostate at a sufficient level to activate ER-β.15 These findings, together with the finding that testosterone up-regulates ER-β messenger ribonucleic acid expression,21 suggest that there is a close interaction between the estrogen and androgen pathways in the prostate."

 

[Dante]

The PSA protein leaks when the prostate cells break down. It is similar to other intracellular proteins such as LDH and cytochrome C, which leak when the cell breaks down. Estrogen is the primary cause of such breakdown. As I posted in another discussion with @Blossom, estrogen is what raises PSA, not DHT. DHT has no effect on PSA levels.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/732585
Steroids that support the integrity of the cell do not cause these proteins to leak out. There is also no biochemical rationale for DHT causing prostate cancer, it is not a "growth" hormone but a differentiating one, and it is a pro-metabolic one vs. estrogen strongly suppressive effect on oxidative metabolism. If these people's PSA rose it is most likely due to the aromatization of T into estrogen. Administering DHT would not have raised PSA and probably would have kept these men in what the medical community likes to call "permanent remission".
High Estradiol and the Prostate
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/04/100419150813.htm
Estrogen action and prostate cancer
The Role of Estrogens in Prostate Carcinogenesis: A Rationale for Chemoprevention
"...DES was the first hormonal therapy for cancer, developed by Huggins and Hodges in 1941. Low-dose DES treatment is still used today as first-line hormonal therapy, albeit not in the United States, and can provide benefit as second-line hormonal therapy.4–6 DES treatment ultimately leads to androgen-refractory prostate cancer, just as androgen-targeted hormonal therapy does. DES is a strong estrogen that suppresses pituitary secretion of luteinizing hormone (LH) and consequently inhibits testicular testosterone production, acting as an antiandrogen; it might also increase serum sex hormone-binding globulin, thereby reducing the amount of free testosterone in the circulation. DES also has direct effects on the prostate, being cytotoxic (eg, as DES-phosphate) and inhibiting proliferation and inducing apoptosis in prostate cancer cells in tissue culture. The mechanism by which DES acts directly on prostate cancer cells is not known with certainty, but it might involve up-regulation of transforming growth factor β, apoptosis, and cell-cell interactions. Whether an estrogen receptor (ER)-mediated action of DES is involved, and if so, by which of the currently known ER subtypes, ER-α or ER-β, is not known. Also unknown is whether estrogens other than DES have similar effects."
"...This raises the possibility that the prostate cancer induced by testosterone in the rat prostate is, at least in part, due to estrogen effects. Supporting this notion, when 5α- dihydrotestosterone (DHT), which cannot be converted to estradiol by aromatase, was given to NBL rats, prostate cancer developed in less than 5% of animals (Bosland and colleagues, unpublished data). However, when estradiol was combined with DHT, tumor incidence increased only to 15%. There are no studies of aromatase inhibitors in this rat model. Thus, precisely how estrogen interacts with androgen in producing prostate cancer in rats is complex and remains unclear. Evidence for such an interaction has come recently from experiments showing that a metabolite of DHT, 5α-androstane- 3β, 17β-diol (3β-androstanediol), has the characteristics of the natural ligand for ER-β.20 Although it has a lower affinity than estradiol for ER-β, it is present in the prostate at a sufficient level to activate ER-β.15 These findings, together with the finding that testosterone up-regulates ER-β messenger ribonucleic acid expression,21 suggest that there is a close interaction between the estrogen and androgen pathways in the prostate."

The science daily also says- "that high levels of the estrogen considered fuel for breast cancer might offer a protective benefit against prostate cancer" (lol).
I have read the last study before.

 

[Koveras]

@Dhair Have you looked into or spoken with a doctor about JAK inhibitors for alopecia areata? I sense they're an expensive treatment but may offer some relief. On the same note prolactin induces the JAK/STAT inflammatory pathways so testing that and using strategies to ensure it stays on the lower side may help.

 

[haidut]

@Dhair Have you looked into or spoken with a doctor about JAK inhibitors for alopecia areata? I sense they're an expensive treatment but may offer some relief. On the same note prolactin induces the JAK/STAT inflammatory pathways so testing that and using strategies to ensure it stays on the lower side may help.

Aspirin is one such JAK inhibitor.
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/aspirin-is-a-janus-kinase-jk-inhibitor.13446/

 

[Herbie]

I'm about to give up on the Ray Peat approach.
My hair continues to fall out at an alarming rate since I tried accutane 2 years ago and will not slow down no matter what I do. I had a full head of hair summer of 2014. I'm easily a norwood 4 now. I seem to be recovering from my Levaquin poisoning, but it's taken a loooong time.
My skin issues seem to be getting worse. A strange crust has started to develop along my hairline and I have unbelievably bad dandruff and dry skin.
I am doing EVERYTHING. Vitamin D/A/K supplemenation, high calcium intake, avoiding PUFA. Nothing is working.
To make matters worse, no one can tell me anywhere online what accutane's mechanism of action is and there are precious few resources online to guide me through this. No one knows anything.
I'm supplementing glycine, taurine and caffeine in an attempt to fix any liver issues I might have. I THINK that my eczema (which appeared at the EXACT same time my hair loss problems started) may have improved but I can't be sure. Still, the hair continues to fall.
Ive been at this for many months now, and it's a shame that I havent seen any results because I enjoy researching this stuff and I like this community. But this clearly isn't for me. I think I may have to accept that I was robbed of my youth and get over it.
EDIT: If anyone is interested , this guy has the exact same hair loss experience as me. In the video, he says he attempted accutane in his early 20s. He's now 30 and he's completely bald.

He put out a video saying that he grew up vegetarian and has trouble with gluten and diary.

 

[Dhair]

[WIKI][/WIKI]Y

He put out a video saying that he grew up vegetarian and has trouble with gluten and diary.

I don't think that's why he lost his hair.
According to him, every male on both sides of his family has a full head of hair.

 

[Douglas Ek]

I'm about to give up on the Ray Peat approach.
My hair continues to fall out at an alarming rate since I tried accutane 2 years ago and will not slow down no matter what I do. I had a full head of hair summer of 2014. I'm easily a norwood 4 now. I seem to be recovering from my Levaquin poisoning, but it's taken a loooong time.
My skin issues seem to be getting worse. A strange crust has started to develop along my hairline and I have unbelievably bad dandruff and dry skin.
I am doing EVERYTHING. Vitamin D/A/K supplemenation, high calcium intake, avoiding PUFA. Nothing is working.
To make matters worse, no one can tell me anywhere online what accutane's mechanism of action is and there are precious few resources online to guide me through this. No one knows anything.
I'm supplementing glycine, taurine and caffeine in an attempt to fix any liver issues I might have. I THINK that my eczema (which appeared at the EXACT same time my hair loss problems started) may have improved but I can't be sure. Still, the hair continues to fall.
Ive been at this for many months now, and it's a shame that I havent seen any results because I enjoy researching this stuff and I like this community. But this clearly isn't for me. I think I may have to accept that I was robbed of my youth and get over it.
EDIT: If anyone is interested , this guy has the exact same hair loss experience as me. In the video, he says he attempted accutane in his early 20s. He's now 30 and he's completely bald.

Well firstly it might just be a coincidence that hair is falling out. Could just be genetics. Secondly if it doesnt grow back after stopping accutane then some supplement or food regime wont help. It is what it is. And its to complex to just point your finger blaming anything. I always believed accutane though should only be used when your at the point that if you dont take it you'll end up with really bad scars in your face for the rest of your life. Pimples is normal and everyone has it. Specially in their teen years. Suck it up thats life. You can't have everything and life is really unfair like that. Be happy your born as a human and not a fly in a spiders webb lol. Nah but i like how the guy in your video actually turned it into something positive. There's tons of bald dudes in this world getting women. Some women even like that. And seriously women care more about your confidence and your success in life than your looks. If you're gonna be down because your losing your hair women gonna get turned off. Rock that ***t show them that you dont give a two craps about their or anyones opinion. People enjoy hanging out with people who are happy, not trying to be someone else. People really wanna be with people who help them forget their own problems. Everyone has problems. The last thing they need is listening to someone elses problem. They want someone who shows them a good time.