Getting Ripped With Dr Peat

[Curt :-)]

So I'm struggling with all this liquid. I'm drinking 2 litres of milk and a litre or so of juice, and I can't get more salt in without it tasting awful. In the summer I was drinking more than that plus cans of coke. It's unseasonably cold down here and it's really making me feel crappy; always cold, unmotivated and needing to pee.
Is there anything else I can do, or should I just lower my liquid intake?

 

[Such_Saturation]

So I'm struggling with all this liquid. I'm drinking 2 litres of milk and a litre or so of juice, and I can't get more salt in without it tasting awful. In the summer I was drinking more than that plus cans of coke. It's unseasonably cold down here and it's really making me feel crappy; always cold, unmotivated and needing to pee.
Is there anything else I can do, or should I just lower my liquid intake?

Boil the milk with lemon juice or vinegar and strain it to make pure casein. Then you can drink an egg or two for faster protein before work outs.

 

[visionofstrength]

... I'm drinking 2 litres of milk and a litre or so of juice, and I can't get more salt in without it tasting awful. ... It's unseasonably cold down here and it's really making me feel crappy; always cold, unmotivated and needing to pee.
Is there anything else I can do, or should I just lower my liquid intake?

If you're cold you may need more sugar. The casein cheese that S_S suggests is a great way to get more salt. Can you make an entry at cronometer.com for what you eat and drink. I've made a preliminary one for the 2 litres of milk and a litre of juice you mention (1154 calories) here:

Compare to mine if that helps (3000 calories):

Raising body temp may require thyroid and more calories both. Are you taking any thyroid extract? If so, can you say which one, how much and how often? PM me if you prefer.

Yes, I see it's 51 degrees F in Melbourne. That's a bit frigid for down under mate!
Can you get a couple of 250W incandescent lights or redlights there? Here's an example:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0066L0ZRU (light)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0061MZ4Q6 (bracket)
It should help with the wintry blues, especially if you can spend a several hours under it with your skin exposed. Keep the light just close enough that it doesn't burn.

 

[Such_Saturation]

So I'm struggling with all this liquid. I'm drinking 2 litres of milk and a litre or so of juice, and I can't get more salt in without it tasting awful. In the summer I was drinking more than that plus cans of coke. It's unseasonably cold down here and it's really making me feel crappy; always cold, unmotivated and needing to pee.
Is there anything else I can do, or should I just lower my liquid intake?

Boil the milk with lemon juice or vinegar and strain it to make pure casein. Then you can drink an egg or two for faster protein before work outs.

I drink the whole egg, the white is where the big protein and insulin spike comes from. I feel better when there is protein in the blood during training I think. If you want to know another secret: drink a coke throughout the workout, making sure to inhale your burps before each set. You become all red and never get dizzy, burning is almost abolished.

 

[tara]

VoS, you really eat/drink 5 tbsp (not tsp) of salt? I don't think I've ever got near that amount.

 

[visionofstrength]

I drink the whole egg, the white is where the big protein and insulin spike comes from.

Just to be fair to Ray Peat, he cautions against eating egg white (or albumin) without carbohydrates, and warns that an insulin spike can lead to a decrease in blood sugar, and in turn to unwanted effects from adrenaline and cortisol:

Insulin release is also stimulated by amino acids such as leucine, and insulin stimulates cells to absorb amino acids and to synthesize proteins. Since insulin lowers blood sugar as it disposes of amino acids, eating a large amount of protein without carbohydrate can cause a sharp decrease in blood sugar. This leads to the release of adrenalin and cortisol, which raise the blood sugar. Adrenalin causes fatty acids to be drawn into the blood from fat stores, especially if the liver's glycogen stores are depleted, and cortisol causes tissue protein to be broken down into amino acids, some of which are used in place of carbohydrate. Unsaturated fatty acids, adrenaline, and cortisol cause insulin resistance.

A high quality protein such as egg, can cause a stress reaction, and fail to be fully used as protein, if it is eaten without carbohydrates.

Source: http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/Gl ... letter.doc

Peat also says

To use the protein of 2 eggs efficiently it would be good to have a glass of milk and a large glass of orange juice.

source: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1035&start=50#p14864

This is roughly 2 tablespoons of sugar, or the amount of sugar in 2 12-ounce cans of coke. As S_S also says:

...drink a coke throughout the workout

 

[visionofstrength]

VoS, you really eat/drink 5 tbsp (not tsp) of salt? I don't think I've ever got near that amount.

Hi Tara! Welcome! Um, yes, in my enthusiasm for all things salty, I may have exaggerated, but in my defense, I really don't know. I don't really measure, I just salt to taste.

But since you and dd have both been good enough to point this out, let's try a thought experiment. A normal saline solution is about a half teaspoon of salt for 8 ounces of water. I'm taking in about 142 ounces of water (according to cronometer, though I think they might be estimating low), so if that's right, I would need about 8.8 teaspoons of salt, or a little less than 3 tablespoons.

Now if I'm hypothyroid, then my cells may leak water and sodium, causing me to have clear urine that contains excess sodium (and sometimes leading to migraines, as you know). To help with my hypothyroidism, I may need a slightly hypertonic solution, which could be twice that much -- even 6 tablespoons. So it really just depends on how hypothyroid I am, and how much excess sodium I am excreting (or how clear the urine is).

In addition, if I'm working out, I may be losing sodium through perspiration.

I guess the takeaway is, trust your body. If you have a craving for anything, try a little salt first to see if that helps. If you're craving salt, lucky you. Please enjoy a delicious salty cheese!

 

[Such_Saturation]

Intravenous saline is 0,9% salt, and after two liters of that I only produced about a cup of urine. Definitely not physiological.

 

[pboy]

you gotta keep in mind too, salt is only that concentration in the blood. The blood is only about 1/15 of our bodies total fluid. So we don't need to have that much sodium, its well conserved and managed. I used to attempt that, even reading all the saline info, but I realized I was hurting myself. The whole thing about losing salt in sweat is moreso BECAUSE the salt, not because you sweat. When you eat a low salt diet, you almost don't sweat at all. I get hot and moist but very little sweat ever actually comes out...even during high noon working outside. I get that ring around the top of my head, beads, but that's pretty much it. Breast milk for babies only has 42mg sodium per 8oz fluid, and they live on nothing but that for 6 months

for the past few months ive only consumed about 700mg to 1.1g total sodium a day, mostly just naturally occurring in milk, totaling about a gallon of fluid a day, and
its fine, I pee normal and its cleared by the next day. What leads to water retention, slow urine, all that...is not lack of salt in the water (it needs a pinch or less...think about how little 42mg is, and to be safe, even 100mg is a small amount), its the lack of calorie total in the water. Just for reference again, a cup of OJ is 110 calories. A cup of breast milk is 172 calories. And if an infant drinks any plain water it can lead to brain damage or worse due to dilution. So 3/4 oz cheese just as an example would balance out a cup of OJ, and stuff like that. The problem with coke or just relying on sugar alone is eventually youll surpass your electryolyte and vitamin capability, so you have to still have at least half carbs/cals from nutrient containing foods...but sugar is like an amazing huge tool

Curt, try adding 2-3 tsp sugar to your milk (per cup), stir it in well and I guarantee it well help with the entire hypo over fluid cascade

such saturation that's a nice insight about the coke...I wonder if by breathing in the burp you are like...forcing Co2 into the bloodstream and that is preventing the dizzy, interesting, nice insight

also...to note, this is why whole milk is much better than skimmed. The only way I could see skim being an advantage is if for some reason you were eating a lot of free oils, heavy cream, butter, you were getting plenty of dense calories, and you acutally wanted the skim milk as a plus choline food to balance out all the free fat

 

[narouz]

Not that I'm implying everything written here has to match The Word O' Peat,
but I haven't heard Peat make an argument for whole milk.
When I've heard/read him discuss it,
it has been within a weight context--
is being too fat a problem, etc.

In that context, Peat has said skim is the best option
simply from a caloric standpoint.
He said he had tried skim,
but didn't like the taste.
So--at the time--I believe he said he went to 2%.

So I'm interested in the "whole milk is better" argument,
but I don't understand it very clearly.

I believe some poster wrote that he drank whole milk
simply because it did not have the added (and suspect quality) vitamin A...

 

[Such_Saturation]

Not that I'm implying everything written here has to match The Word O' Peat,
but I haven't heard Peat make an argument for whole milk.
When I've heard/read him discuss it,
it has been within a weight context--
is being too fat a problem, etc.

In that context, Peat has said skim is the best option
simply from a caloric standpoint.
He said he had tried skim,
but didn't like the taste.
So--at the time--I believe he said he went to 2%.

So I'm interested in the "whole milk is better" argument,
but I don't understand it very clearly.

I believe some poster wrote that he drank whole milk
simply because it did not have the added (and suspect quality) vitamin A...

From what I remember, he attributes at least part of the low glycemic index of milk to the fat, and correct absorption of the vitamins as well. If the milk is industrial or you are trying to lose weight I think he has advised to drink the skim version.

 

[narouz]

That jibes with what I've heard/read him say, too, Such.
Or if you just don't want to gain weight.
Are you saying the lower glycemic of whole milk
could be an argument for drinking that
even considered within a context of not wanting more weight...?

I wouldn't be drinking raw.

I'm interested to hear more about pboy's argument for whole.

 

[visionofstrength]

In this thread, just to be fair to Ray Peat, may I very briefly point out where pboy and Ray Peat may differ?

Breast milk for babies only has 42mg sodium per 8oz fluid, and they live on nothing but that for 6 months

Newborns, if healthy, have a very high metabolic rate, and conserve sodium very efficiently. As we age, Ray Peat has noticed that, especially if we become hypothyroid, we no longer conserve sodium, our leaky cells fail to make use of sodium efficiently, and we excrete sodium excessively in the urine.

RP suggests that you salt to taste, and that if you have a salt craving, by all means have a salty cheese.

Curt, try adding 2-3 tsp sugar to your milk (per cup), stir it in well and I guarantee it well help with the entire hypo over fluid cascade

Here, I think RP's preferred proportion seems to be 3 tsp. (1 tbsp.) sugar to one pint of milk. But that depends on the individual's own production or supplementation of thyroid, which can vary at any given time from stress. If you feel like you're not making progress, then, as pboy suggests, try more sugar.

also...to note, this is why whole milk is much better than skimmed. The only way I could see skim being an advantage is if for some reason you were eating a lot of free oils, heavy cream, butter, you were getting plenty of dense calories, and you acutally wanted the skim milk as a plus choline food to balance out all the free fat

pboy may be right, but I think it's fair to say that RP has recommended nonfat milk and coconut oil.

 

[pboy]

narouz, I think the skim milk would only help in the context of if you were essentially going to replace the milk fat with coconut oil. But if you only drink skim milk I think youd eventually become hypo, the cells would be too waterlogged for the energy they were getting. Essentially too much water, too little calories, the cell functions slower and is more likely to hit lactic acid fermentation. The co2 generated from oxidizing energy is actually what give the cell the capability to send out extra water, salt, acids, and other solutes...its the pump essentially, and the more the cell can pump, the more toned it stays, the faster the metabolism is. So if you were drinking skim milk but having the equivalent of about 2 tsp coconut oil with each cup ratio wise, it would be better for weight loss than whole milk. Also, if you are eating meat and eggs, youd still probably lose weight faster with skim than whole milk...depending on how much of the dense food you ate.
The reason its better is because it has more calories to the water ratio, and the fat in milk is metabolically friendly. The only thing that rivals or surpasses would be maybe egg yolk or coconut oil (maybe palm oil if you were vit a/e deficient). So...It all depends on context. For the people drinking mostly milk, coffee, juice, and not eating that much other food or adding sugar, they'll become hypo and metabolism will slow down If they use skim milk, which will stunt the weight loss effort

it does help absorb fat soluble vitamins too...but so do any fat, so that's not really the reason why I said its better most of the time

I believe Peat eats cheese, adds heavy cream to coffee, and cooks with coconut oil, so he can be better balanced with skim milk...but without those things, im sure he would have to use whole

 

[Such_Saturation]

Technically short chain fat will be absorbed before the duodenum and wouldn't be suited to emulsify vitamins. Skim milk I think would still have a low glycemic index because of the extensive protein matrix which only strengthens in the stomach. Lower than juice at least. Anyway I don't think the slightly higher glycemic index would offput the decreased fat intake that skim milk brings.

http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsweek/ ... _foods.htm

Says skim has lower than full fat.

 

[superhuman]

pboy: but RP himself recommends skimmed milk if one wants to loose weight because of the calories. He also things based on science that low fat high carb medium protein(higher) if your active is the best in terms of pushing up the metabolism since sugar and protein does more for metabolism then fat.

Eating low fluid high calorie dense foods will be hard to feel satisfied if you ate 2000 kcal from that wich say has a volume of 300grams compared to lower calorie foods that has a volume of 2kg.
I guess the stomach also has a satiety response in terms of the volume of food?

So yes for getting ripped on Dr Peat like i want to do and im doing it with RP foods but i have to change the macros so i can feel satisfied and full and the only thing that can do that for me is protein. So im eating 200g protein a day wich is ALOT in RP world but that i feel is my only chance of keeping calories low. Ofc i dont feel good tho but that is also because im cutting calories pretty low but not crazy low.

 

[visionofstrength]

pboy: but RP himself recommends skimmed milk if one wants to loose weight because of the calories. ... So im eating 200g protein a day wich is ALOT in RP world but that i feel is my only chance of keeping calories low. Ofc i dont feel good tho but that is also because im cutting calories pretty low but not crazy low.

SH, Can you make a cronometer for us, of what you eat?

I think pboy and RP agree on this: For 200g of protein you may need 500g of sugar. RP thinks that you just can't use protein without carbohydrates, that protein without carbohydrates causes an insulin spike, which decreases blood sugar, and then leads to the unwanted effects of adrenalin and cortisol. This may be why, as you say, "Ofc i dont feel good".

I think what pboy is saying is, ignore what you've been told about losing weight from low calories. It just isn't so, at least not in metabolic terms. Instead, the more protein and carbohydrate you have (in that ratio of 2:5, plus some saturated fat from coconut oil), the better your metabolism will be, and then the pounds will just melt off of you.

 

[superhuman]

Right now my meals are just plain and simple, cottage cheese, grapes, apple, mixed together. I love it and it makes me full with low calories. I sprinkle on eggshell calcium powder aswell and some magnesium carbonate.

I also use carrot salad, coffee, aspirin

Yeah i know rp says sugar:protein should be 2:1+ but its hard for me to get there while having enough protein say 150-200g without going overboard on calories.

There are very few tasting sources of peaty protein foods that have very low fat exept skim milk but that isnt exactly something tasty.

Ive tried doing the more carbs 2,5:1+ carbs:protein ratio but it just lead to eating way way to much so i could not do it.

I guess you will always feel kind of off when you calorie restrict esp if you calorie restrict a bit aggressive like i do. Since alot of the energy will come from stored fat.

Once again i would love to eat more carbs and calories and still loose weight but i cant because i gain weight if im not controlling myself and that is not fun either to make an real mental effort to stop eating.

 

[visionofstrength]

SH, Can you make a cronometer for us, of what you eat?

I'm sorry, I think I can explain this a little better if I can use the cronometer as a reference? It's free at cronometer.com .

 

[superhuman]

Sure i use cronometer and all that my macros are as of now.

222g protein, 133g carbs, 35g fat
So yeah almost low carb. This is working in terms of getting my leaner, and i havent done it for long either.
Before that i was religiously doing 2.5:1 ratio carbs:protein

http://bildr.no/view/VG14OWhp

there u have screen