Getting Plenty Of Magnesium Without Supplements: Tough But Possible

[Orius]

"In the animal model used, magnesium deficiency is created when an inflammatory condition is produced."

From Magnesium and the Inflammatory Response: Potential PhysiopathologicalImplications." Archives of Biochemistry & Biophysics 458, no. 1 (February 1, 2007): 48–56.

So simply getting sunshine (as long as it feels good) on as much of your body as possible or doing tolerable exercise that you have the energy for can help stop a magnesium deficiency. (both things can have huge inflammation lowering properties)

I feel that insulin resistance and lymph stagnation are two huge inflammation sources in society in general.

Adding magnesium may be necessary, especially for those that have used supplemental vitamin D, but it can also be quite imbalancing to other minerals.

My experience is consistent with the above.

If you can find a way to directly address the inflammation then the magnesium deficiency will right itself via an okay diet. It does mean reducing refined sugar, though (if insulin resistance is an issue) as it'll just increase your magnesium need.

I'm just curious, what has your experience been with magnesium supplementation displacing other minerals? Did you get low in other things?

I know that magnesium can displace potassium so it's important to supplement.

Thanks for the info on mag and inflammation. I think mag and natural vitamin D are the two most important misidng factors in modern society. Synthetic D wrecks my body (mostly through immune suppression) but the sunlight makes me into a normal human being again.

 

[sunraiser]

I'm just curious, what has your experience been with magnesium supplementation displacing other minerals? Did you get low in other things?

I know that magnesium can displace potassium so it's important to supplement.

Thanks for the info on mag and inflammation. I think mag and natural vitamin D are the two most important misidng factors in modern society. Synthetic D wrecks my body (mostly through immune suppression) but the sunlight makes me into a normal human being again.

My experience has been that it can displace electrolytes but also calcium, especially in the absence of sufficient vitamin D.

There has existed a situation for me in which 800~mg magnesium can cause a drastic alleviation of symptoms for a day or two ( I suppose as an anti-inflammatory) only to cause a complete crash afterwards. I think it can almost act as a metabolic stimulant in that it works in concert with other minerals which we may not be able to metabolise at current.

It's not that we need to replace the things magnesium is helping use (at least not directly via supplement), it's that we need to able to metabolise them in the first place (vitamin D is a common missing factor, perhaps alongside vitamin K2 mk7...ideally via fermented vegetables as I find the supplements to have potential for imbalance, too).

It's more a case of building slowly in that the dose of magnesium (for example) that makes us feel immediate relief isn't going to be a sustainable dose within a depleted metabolism. As far as I'm aware both calcium and copper uptake are dependant on progesterone levels which will usually be low after prolonged stress (this is normal). We can't uptake magnesium without being able to properly metabolise copper and calcium, and therefore it has to be a slow building process. Ceruloplasmin seems to raise with progesterone (to help copper metabolism) and this further highlights the "building" process.

Maybe like 200iu - 1000 iu vitamin D with just 150mg or so magnesium and as metabolic health improves and mineral uptake improves (along with liver health), one should be able to tolerate more magnesium and therefore vitamin D - although less is always more. If you're making steady improvements then why push it? I do think there are some more complex situations in which maybe 4-5k vitamin D might be needed but a person can only really discover and reflect on this through journalling and being very cautious with supplementation.

That's why I think a really varied and robust diet is key as it allows us to remineralise and grow via listening to cravings each day - restrictive diets often only serve to supress symptoms and not facilitate healing, which is awful as they're often pushed on desperate people as cures.

I have, in the past, been the same as you in that sunlight turned me into a normal human where vitamin D didn't. One of the biggest healing phases of my life was working outside in the sun all day for two months - it made me realise healing SHOULDN'T be hard or complex. I was eating fries and chicken every day with occasional chickpeas or pasta for dinner. It wasn't a huge amount of calories either (I didn't have access to good food at the time).

I think in removing some of the inflammatory (and perhaps immune?) burden via sunlight/light movement the body has a much easier time healing. I have also read/observed people state that consistent sunlight in their eyes can stimulate progesterone which would boost ceruloplasmin and be a great facilitator for healing!

 

[Orius]

800mg of mag is a lot. In my experience, 600mg is the upper limit, including food, supplements, etc. Yes, mag can displace minerals: in the short term potassium, in the long term calcium (if you take too much).

Mag is also needed to convert storage D to active D. Our bodies store enough vitamin D in fat during high UVB months to tide us over in months when there's no UVB. The idea that we need to take synthetic D3 is based on bad science and leads to toxic effects in the body. I have observed that synthetic D3 acts as an immune suppressant, so in the short term I feel better and then I start having deleterious health effects.

In my experience and research, D is not the missing factor. D is almost always present but can't be used. The three missing factors in the modern human body tend to be magnesium, bioavailable copper (NOT elemental copper), retinol, and whole food C. There should be 10 times the amount of retinol to vitamin D in the body. That's why traditionally people took cod liver oil in the winter time. It was originally very high in vitamin A (before government regulations) and had trace amounts of natural vitamin D. You'll notice that most of the natural D foods have a very high vitamin A to D ratio.

The science makes another twisted path by adding K2 to the picture, as though that is the "problem". The problem is actually lack of vitamin A. If you have enough mag and vitamin A, the body can use its D stores properly. If one just takes D3, then it will build to toxic levels with no useful conversion.

Your comments on progesterone are interesting. I haven't considered the connection between higher progesterone = higher ceruloplasmin potential. I have had above normal progesterone for some months now due to taking pregnenolone and have had wonderful effects. However, my ceruloplasmin recently tested as in the deficient range. We need ceruloplasmin to fuel the master antioxidants of the body, call ferroxidases. These reduce iron so that it can't cause oxidative damage to the body. Whole food vitamin C has tyrosinase at its core, which contains bioavailable copper. Ascorbic acid does not. Liver is high in retinol and bioavailable copper. So I guess my objective here has been to restore RBC magnesium levels, boost ceruloplasmin, and get my active vitamin A stores in check.

I must be on the right track because my inflammation levels have gone way down in recent months and I'm experiencing optimized health like never before.

My experience has been that it can displace electrolytes but also calcium, especially in the absence of sufficient vitamin D.

There has existed a situation for me in which 800~mg magnesium can cause a drastic alleviation of symptoms for a day or two ( I suppose as an anti-inflammatory) only to cause a complete crash afterwards. I think it can almost act as a metabolic stimulant in that it works in concert with other minerals which we may not be able to metabolise at current.

It's not that we need to replace the things magnesium is helping use (at least not directly via supplement), it's that we need to able to metabolise them in the first place (vitamin D is a common missing factor, perhaps alongside vitamin K2 mk7...ideally via fermented vegetables as I find the supplements to have potential for imbalance, too).

It's more a case of building slowly in that the dose of magnesium (for example) that makes us feel immediate relief isn't going to be a sustainable dose within a depleted metabolism. As far as I'm aware both calcium and copper uptake are dependant on progesterone levels which will usually be low after prolonged stress (this is normal). We can't uptake magnesium without being able to properly metabolise copper and calcium, and therefore it has to be a slow building process. Ceruloplasmin seems to raise with progesterone (to help copper metabolism) and this further highlights the "building" process.

Maybe like 200iu - 1000 iu vitamin D with just 150mg or so magnesium and as metabolic health improves and mineral uptake improves (along with liver health), one should be able to tolerate more magnesium and therefore vitamin D - although less is always more. If you're making steady improvements then why push it? I do think there are some more complex situations in which maybe 4-5k vitamin D might be needed but a person can only really discover and reflect on this through journalling and being very cautious with supplementation.

That's why I think a really varied and robust diet is key as it allows us to remineralise and grow via listening to cravings each day - restrictive diets often only serve to supress symptoms and not facilitate healing, which is awful as they're often pushed on desperate people as cures.

I have, in the past, been the same as you in that sunlight turned me into a normal human where vitamin D didn't. One of the biggest healing phases of my life was working outside in the sun all day for two months - it made me realise healing SHOULDN'T be hard or complex. I was eating fries and chicken every day with occasional chickpeas or pasta for dinner. It wasn't a huge amount of calories either (I didn't have access to good food at the time).

I think in removing some of the inflammatory (and perhaps immune?) burden via sunlight/light movement the body has a much easier time healing. I have also read/observed people state that consistent sunlight in their eyes can stimulate progesterone which would boost ceruloplasmin and be a great facilitator for healing!

 

[Braveheart]

800mg of mag is a lot. In my experience, 600mg is the upper limit, including food, supplements, etc. Yes, mag can displace minerals: in the short term potassium, in the long term calcium (if you take too much).

Mag is also needed to convert storage D to active D. Our bodies store enough vitamin D in fat during high UVB months to tide us over in months when there's no UVB. The idea that we need to take synthetic D3 is based on bad science and leads to toxic effects in the body. I have observed that synthetic D3 acts as an immune suppressant, so in the short term I feel better and then I start having deleterious health effects.

In my experience and research, D is not the missing factor. D is almost always present but can't be used. The three missing factors in the modern human body tend to be magnesium, bioavailable copper (NOT elemental copper), retinol, and whole food C. There should be 10 times the amount of retinol to vitamin D in the body. That's why traditionally people took cod liver oil in the winter time. It was originally very high in vitamin A (before government regulations) and had trace amounts of natural vitamin D. You'll notice that most of the natural D foods have a very high vitamin A to D ratio.

The science makes another twisted path by adding K2 to the picture, as though that is the "problem". The problem is actually lack of vitamin A. If you have enough mag and vitamin A, the body can use its D stores properly. If one just takes D3, then it will build to toxic levels with no useful conversion.

Your comments on progesterone are interesting. I haven't considered the connection between higher progesterone = higher ceruloplasmin potential. I have had above normal progesterone for some months now due to taking pregnenolone and have had wonderful effects. However, my ceruloplasmin recently tested as in the deficient range. We need ceruloplasmin to fuel the master antioxidants of the body, call ferroxidases. These reduce iron so that it can't cause oxidative damage to the body. Whole food vitamin C has tyrosinase at its core, which contains bioavailable copper. Ascorbic acid does not. Liver is high in retinol and bioavailable copper. So I guess my objective here has been to restore RBC magnesium levels, boost ceruloplasmin, and get my active vitamin A stores in check.

I must be on the right track because my inflammation levels have gone way down in recent months and I'm experiencing optimized health like never before.

I find your comments thought provoking...look forward to more, thank you.

 

[Wagner83]

Do they count chlorophyll as a source of magnesium when they study greens?

 

[Amazoniac]

Do they count chlorophyll as a source of magnesium when they study greens?

Wagner! It's little. Spinach which is one of the richest sources of chlorophyll, that could potentially have the greatest amount of magnesium encased in chlorophyll, provides only 2.54% (below) of its magnesium in it (if ein cup of boiled spinach has 150 mg of magnesium, that's 4 mg):

Chlorophyll-bound Magnesium in Commonly Consumed Vegetables and Fruits: Relevance to Magnesium Nutrition

Some chlorophyll is lost depending on preparation, but this was already considered above since most leafy greens are consumed cooked..

 

[HealthisWealth]

800mg of mag is a lot. In my experience, 600mg is the upper limit, including food, supplements, etc. Yes, mag can displace minerals: in the short term potassium, in the long term calcium (if you take too much).

Mag is also needed to convert storage D to active D. Our bodies store enough vitamin D in fat during high UVB months to tide us over in months when there's no UVB. The idea that we need to take synthetic D3 is based on bad science and leads to toxic effects in the body. I have observed that synthetic D3 acts as an immune suppressant, so in the short term I feel better and then I start having deleterious health effects.

In my experience and research, D is not the missing factor. D is almost always present but can't be used. The three missing factors in the modern human body tend to be magnesium, bioavailable copper (NOT elemental copper), retinol, and whole food C. There should be 10 times the amount of retinol to vitamin D in the body. That's why traditionally people took cod liver oil in the winter time. It was originally very high in vitamin A (before government regulations) and had trace amounts of natural vitamin D. You'll notice that most of the natural D foods have a very high vitamin A to D ratio.

The science makes another twisted path by adding K2 to the picture, as though that is the "problem". The problem is actually lack of vitamin A. If you have enough mag and vitamin A, the body can use its D stores properly. If one just takes D3, then it will build to toxic levels with no useful conversion.

Your comments on progesterone are interesting. I haven't considered the connection between higher progesterone = higher ceruloplasmin potential. I have had above normal progesterone for some months now due to taking pregnenolone and have had wonderful effects. However, my ceruloplasmin recently tested as in the deficient range. We need ceruloplasmin to fuel the master antioxidants of the body, call ferroxidases. These reduce iron so that it can't cause oxidative damage to the body. Whole food vitamin C has tyrosinase at its core, which contains bioavailable copper. Ascorbic acid does not. Liver is high in retinol and bioavailable copper. So I guess my objective here has been to restore RBC magnesium levels, boost ceruloplasmin, and get my active vitamin A stores in check.

I must be on the right track because my inflammation levels have gone way down in recent months and I'm experiencing optimized health like never before.

I have been eating boiled green leafy water and then i find this post. I really need to take more food source magnesium. And i agree that supplementa d3 is hard to use. It makes me cold and hard to sleep.

 

[Wagner83]

Wagner! It's little. Spinach which is one of the richest sources of chlorophyll, that could potentially have the greatest amount of magnesium encased in chlorophyll, provides only 2.54% (below) of its magnesium in it (if ein cup of boiled spinach has 150 mg of magnesium, that's 4 mg):

Chlorophyll-bound Magnesium in Commonly Consumed Vegetables and Fruits: Relevance to Magnesium Nutrition

View attachment 11889​

Some chlorophyll is lost depending on preparation, but this was already considered above since most leafy greens are consumed cooked..

View attachment 11887​

I'm almost disappointed but thanks for the information.

 

[HealthisWealth]

i dont know if im doing it right. I slow boil sweet potato leaves really lots of leaves like 24 stalks with 8oz of water around 30minutes. It produces a thick dark greenish brown liquid. Dont know if it has lots of magnesium.

if you are not familiar with sweet potato leaves its like this

 

[RealNeat]

I use this salt, even though it does not state the magnesium content (carbonate *sometimes hydroxide* and oxide) it is used as a anti-caking agent therefore it still contributes to intake. The sodium chloride most likely assists in proper stomach acid production helping to better ionize the minerals..

https://www.amazon.com/Frontier-Natural-Salt-Grind-ounce/dp/B00028QD24/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=frontier+sea+salt&qid=1581990031&s=grocery&sr=1-3&th=1

 

[GelatinGoblin]

It's likely that a diet high in magnesium is also high in oxalate:
Oxalate - Wikipedia

Grass-fed spinach has lower nitrate content but it makes no difference for oxalate:
Effect of Organic and Conventional Cropping Systems on Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin C, Flavonoids, Nitrate, and Oxalate in 27 Varieties of Spinach (Spinacia oleracea L.)

Spoiler: Nitrate content of 27 spinach cultivars: grass- vs grain-fed

View attachment 11732

Spoiler: Oxalate content of 27 spinach cultivars: grass- vs grain-fed

View attachment 11733

"The accumulation of oxalate in spinach depends upon variety, fertilizer application, light intensity, and growing season.[18,28,31,32] However, herein cultivation had no significant effect on the oxalate content of spinach (Table 2 and Figure 5)."

In your link, the guys cooked those foods for 12 min, but apparently (contrary to what I read) shorter times also work:

Effect of Cooking on the Soluble and Insoluble Oxalate Content of Some New Zealand Foods

View attachment 11734

"The cooking times taken from when the water began to boil were, NZ spinach and spinach 2 min; silverbeet leaves, 6 min; silverbeet stems, rhubarb stalks, broccoli, carrot and parsnip 10 min."​

I guess the best bet is letting oxalic acid react with calcium outside the body, because it will form insoluble salt that's more difficult to be adsorbed:

Bioavailability of soluble oxalate from spinach eaten with and without milk products ​

If magnesium appears encased in chlorophyll and the leaves keep the original color after cooking, its content must still be high. Here's the effect of length of scalding on minerals in a produce that resembles spinach:

Effect of blanching time on selective mineral elements extraction from the spinach substitute (Tetragonia expansa) commonly used in Brazil

View attachment 11736​

Magnesium and potassium:

Damn... How the hell to do this then?

 

[GelatinGoblin]

I may have misread this thread but it seems impossible to get Magnesium haha...
Once again, the sweet spot for oxalate breakdown and mineral retension was discussed or mentioned but no concrete answer or viable solution to this problem. The mineral loss is very much a shame, but eating 15 minute boiled vegetables is better than none.
Magnesium, Vitamin E, B2, and B6 are very tough cases...

 

[metabolizm]

Gently fry a bunch of spinach leaves in lots of butter, making sure the butter is evenly spread. Add some cream cheese and salt. Eat. Whether or not it can correct a magnesium deficiency, it's damn delicious.

 

[VitoScaletta]

I have been eating it my whole life, but currently reducing it's consumption due to high oxalates.

Do you still eat it? What frequency?

 

[VitoScaletta]

That will not correct a deficiency though

Why not ?