gunther
Member
I too have been tapering off of Venlafaxine and have had troubles. Care to compare notes?
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Getting off of SSNRI, and dealing with panic attacks.
- Thread starter Peat Bogdanoff
- Start date
I too have been tapering off of Venlafaxine and have had troubles. Care to compare notes?
gunther
Member
I've been dealing with Venlafaxine withdrawal for about three years.
TLDR: Venlafaxine withdrawal is hell. It's somehow messing with acetylcholine and the only thing that seems to help is Benadryl and KAVA. What do?
(I tapered too quickly and went into a state of absolute hell for about 4 months, after which I reinstated and was able to level off. After stabilizing I started a slow gradual taper, which I've held at 0.6 mg for the last six months. I was hoping that during this hold I would gradually get better, but it's been a roller coaster of ups and downs.)
My symptoms are panic, worry, extreme agitation, horror, racing heart and depression. There seems to be no pattern them. Sometimes they go away for a few days and sometimes they return. During this time, I've tried many many things to alleviate symptoms: diets, gut protocols, supplements and on and on. Some help. Some seem to help. Some do nothing. Due to the random nature of the symptoms, I have a hard time assessing them and usually test something three times before I draw any conclusions.
The only two things that I've found that really help are Benadryl and KAVA. Benadryl calms me down, but leaves me a bit dopey. Without it I would be lost. Kava tends to cheer me up, but the effect is mild. From my digging I've found both Benadryl and Kava to be anti-cholinergics. I'm also sensitive to sources of choline: eggs, fish oil. Does anti-depressant withdrawal mess with the acetylcholine somehow?
Things that aggravate symptoms are gluten, choline sources: fish oil, eggs. I also suspect dairy, but haven't tested it, because I'm scared.
Some things that felt like they have helped to calm me down but only for a few days were taurine (I thought there was a benzo type response), B1, GABA. These quit working after a few days. (Could have all been my imagination)
Tyrosine and Phenalalanine seem to work great to give me energy and lift me out of my state, but they don't work all the time. Sometimes they give me a lot of energy, sometime they do seemingly nothing.
After hearing a Haidut interview where he explains and under performing thyroid puts a body into a state of adrenaline/cortisol energy production, it seemed like it could be me. I'm looking into thyroid. I don't have any obvious outward signs of hypothyroidism though.
If anyone has any experience or insight into this PLEASE let me and the thousands of others suffering know.
Notes on stuff:
History: Anxiety, panic and depression since early childhood. Depression runs in the family.
Gut health: I've tried various gut cleansing protocols. They seem to help, but no consistent results. I don't have any harsh digestive symptoms such as pain, bloating, but my stools are inconsistent. Sometime loose and floaty, sometime normal.
Mold/toxins: My siblings and I have lived in locations all across the US in many different houses. I don't see a possible pattern, but I can't rule this out.
Inflammation: It often said that inflammation is involved in just about every bad thing that can go wrong. I recently took an at home test for CRP and I was low. Does this mean I'm not inflamed, or just that CRP isn't involved?
Labs: D and CRP are average.
Acetylecholine: Something is going on here. Benadryl and KAVA take away symptoms on a clear consistent basis. I get heart palpitations and anxiety from eggs and fish oil.
Dopamine: I respond well to coffee, tyrosine and phenylalanine. Pretty sure I'm DA deficient.
Thyroid: My dad had hypothyroidism. I'm currently looking into this, taking temp and pulse. No obvious outward signs like weight gain, hair loss, etc.
Supplements: I've changed my supplements because of my recent downturn and new Peat knowledge.
Vitamins: C
Minerals: Calcium, Magnesium, Potassium, Zinc
Other: Aspirin, Salt, Tyrosine, Phenylalanine
Diet: I did a KETO diet for 4-6 months. I felt it helped with anxiety at first, but then not so much. After reading Peat, I've introduced sugary fruit and carbs back into the mix. Apples, cherries, carrots, etc. I seem to do best on small frequent snacking throughout the day rather than big meals. Sometimes I get heart palpitations after large meals.
I've not tried: glycine, niacinimide, thyroid treatment
Note of SSRI withdrawal: I don't know what portion of my symptoms I can blame on venlafaxine withdrawal and what portion I can blame on my normal cheerful self. My depression and anxiety predate my exposure to it. However, my panic state is new.
I'm highly motivated to get better. I don't drink or do any drugs. I cycle lightly to keep in shape. My current diet is meat, veggies, nuts and fruits. I eat no processed or packaged meals. No gluten. I drink only filtered water.
TLDR: Venlafaxine withdrawal is hell. It's somehow messing with acetylcholine and the only thing that seems to help is Benadryl and KAVA. What do?
(I tapered too quickly and went into a state of absolute hell for about 4 months, after which I reinstated and was able to level off. After stabilizing I started a slow gradual taper, which I've held at 0.6 mg for the last six months. I was hoping that during this hold I would gradually get better, but it's been a roller coaster of ups and downs.)
My symptoms are panic, worry, extreme agitation, horror, racing heart and depression. There seems to be no pattern them. Sometimes they go away for a few days and sometimes they return. During this time, I've tried many many things to alleviate symptoms: diets, gut protocols, supplements and on and on. Some help. Some seem to help. Some do nothing. Due to the random nature of the symptoms, I have a hard time assessing them and usually test something three times before I draw any conclusions.
The only two things that I've found that really help are Benadryl and KAVA. Benadryl calms me down, but leaves me a bit dopey. Without it I would be lost. Kava tends to cheer me up, but the effect is mild. From my digging I've found both Benadryl and Kava to be anti-cholinergics. I'm also sensitive to sources of choline: eggs, fish oil. Does anti-depressant withdrawal mess with the acetylcholine somehow?
Things that aggravate symptoms are gluten, choline sources: fish oil, eggs. I also suspect dairy, but haven't tested it, because I'm scared.
Some things that felt like they have helped to calm me down but only for a few days were taurine (I thought there was a benzo type response), B1, GABA. These quit working after a few days. (Could have all been my imagination)
Tyrosine and Phenalalanine seem to work great to give me energy and lift me out of my state, but they don't work all the time. Sometimes they give me a lot of energy, sometime they do seemingly nothing.
After hearing a Haidut interview where he explains and under performing thyroid puts a body into a state of adrenaline/cortisol energy production, it seemed like it could be me. I'm looking into thyroid. I don't have any obvious outward signs of hypothyroidism though.
If anyone has any experience or insight into this PLEASE let me and the thousands of others suffering know.
Notes on stuff:
History: Anxiety, panic and depression since early childhood. Depression runs in the family.
Gut health: I've tried various gut cleansing protocols. They seem to help, but no consistent results. I don't have any harsh digestive symptoms such as pain, bloating, but my stools are inconsistent. Sometime loose and floaty, sometime normal.
Mold/toxins: My siblings and I have lived in locations all across the US in many different houses. I don't see a possible pattern, but I can't rule this out.
Inflammation: It often said that inflammation is involved in just about every bad thing that can go wrong. I recently took an at home test for CRP and I was low. Does this mean I'm not inflamed, or just that CRP isn't involved?
Labs: D and CRP are average.
Acetylecholine: Something is going on here. Benadryl and KAVA take away symptoms on a clear consistent basis. I get heart palpitations and anxiety from eggs and fish oil.
Dopamine: I respond well to coffee, tyrosine and phenylalanine. Pretty sure I'm DA deficient.
Thyroid: My dad had hypothyroidism. I'm currently looking into this, taking temp and pulse. No obvious outward signs like weight gain, hair loss, etc.
Supplements: I've changed my supplements because of my recent downturn and new Peat knowledge.
Vitamins: C
Minerals: Calcium, Magnesium, Potassium, Zinc
Other: Aspirin, Salt, Tyrosine, Phenylalanine
Diet: I did a KETO diet for 4-6 months. I felt it helped with anxiety at first, but then not so much. After reading Peat, I've introduced sugary fruit and carbs back into the mix. Apples, cherries, carrots, etc. I seem to do best on small frequent snacking throughout the day rather than big meals. Sometimes I get heart palpitations after large meals.
I've not tried: glycine, niacinimide, thyroid treatment
Note of SSRI withdrawal: I don't know what portion of my symptoms I can blame on venlafaxine withdrawal and what portion I can blame on my normal cheerful self. My depression and anxiety predate my exposure to it. However, my panic state is new.
I'm highly motivated to get better. I don't drink or do any drugs. I cycle lightly to keep in shape. My current diet is meat, veggies, nuts and fruits. I eat no processed or packaged meals. No gluten. I drink only filtered water.
Last edited:
youngsinatra
Member
Could be histamine intolerance/histadelia/undermethylation.
How much zinc do you consume through diet (and through supplementation)?
I am also very sensitive to acetylcholine activity and what I have found out is that a high zinc intake makes me supersensitive to acetylcholine.
There is also scientific data backing that up.
www.karger.com
I improved a lot by avoiding high-zinc foods for a couple months and treating my copper deficiency. (I had zinc-induced copper deficiency)
Cu deficiency can cause histamine intolerance, which I used to have in the past, which caused heart palpitations, anxiety, depression, extreme agiation, sleeplessness and extreme sweating.
High histamines are usually accompanied by low dopamine, low serotonin and low norepinephrine.
A simple blood test for plasma zinc, serum copper and ceruloplasmin can give a lot of insight.
How much zinc do you consume through diet (and through supplementation)?
I am also very sensitive to acetylcholine activity and what I have found out is that a high zinc intake makes me supersensitive to acetylcholine.
There is also scientific data backing that up.
Pharmacological Doses of Zn2+ Induce a Muscarinic Cholinergic Supersensitivity
Abstract. The goal of this study was to evaluate the effect of chronic Zn2+ administration (1 mg/kg/day for 1 month) in Sprague-Dawley rats (n = 11) on motility and rearing behaviors (number of events/10 min measured in motility cage), on memory (percentage of failures using a foot-shock double...
www.karger.com
I improved a lot by avoiding high-zinc foods for a couple months and treating my copper deficiency. (I had zinc-induced copper deficiency)
Cu deficiency can cause histamine intolerance, which I used to have in the past, which caused heart palpitations, anxiety, depression, extreme agiation, sleeplessness and extreme sweating.
High histamines are usually accompanied by low dopamine, low serotonin and low norepinephrine.
A simple blood test for plasma zinc, serum copper and ceruloplasmin can give a lot of insight.
gunther
Member
Could be histamine intolerance/histadelia/undermethylation.
How much zinc do you consume through diet (and through supplementation)?
I am also very sensitive to acetylcholine activity and what I have found out is that a high zinc intake makes me supersensitive to acetylcholine.
There is also scientific data backing that up.
Pharmacological Doses of Zn2+ Induce a Muscarinic Cholinergic Supersensitivity
Abstract. The goal of this study was to evaluate the effect of chronic Zn2+ administration (1 mg/kg/day for 1 month) in Sprague-Dawley rats (n = 11) on motility and rearing behaviors (number of events/10 min measured in motility cage), on memory (percentage of failures using a foot-shock double...
I improved a lot by avoiding high-zinc foods for a couple months and treating my copper deficiency. (I had zinc-induced copper deficiency)
Cu deficiency can cause histamine intolerance, which I used to have in the past, which caused heart palpitations, anxiety, depression, extreme agiation, sleeplessness and extreme sweating.
High histamines are usually accompanied by low dopamine, low serotonin and low norepinephrine.
A simple blood test for plasma zinc, serum copper and ceruloplasmin can give a lot of insight.
Three years back I measured Zinc/Copper and I was a little bit high on copper. I've been taking Zinc supp off and on sense then. I still get white spots on my finger nails, which I was told is a sign of low zinc. Also, I've been eating a TON of almonds and pecans, which I'm pretty sure almonds are high in zinc. Benadryl has been working to alleviate symptoms prior to Zinc supplementation.
I wonder if the fact that Benadryl and Kava work to relieve symptoms is in fact the cholinergic effect or other things such as the anti-histamine effect.
gunther
Member
OP
Peat Bogdanoff
Member
Yeah, sorry I haven't been here much because I started a new job. I'll also respond to the other comments later.
So I'm off venlafaxine. I got a new psychiatrist at the urging of family, and the new one was more supportive. They wouldn't prescribe crypto but they did prescribe hydroxyzine.
Things went well with that. Only problem is that I guess they aren't my psychiatrist on paper yet, the old one is, so when the pharmacy called in for refills it sent the fax to the old one, and I was playing phone tag for weeks while I hoarded the few pills I had left for emergencies, eventually they did refill it, but I need to get the situation sorted out.
I would like to get off lamictal eventually, as well, but I get physical withdrawls whenever I stop that.
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