Get Rid Of Gyno/Man Boobs

OP
japanesedude

japanesedude

Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2017
Messages
574
I know Ray Peat isn't a big fan of fasting, but I got rid of mine with a seven-day green juice fast. The gynecomastia never came back after that. It might take more than one fast, if the issue is moderate or severe. :)
very interesting. thanks.
@japanesedude Did you notice any specific improvement from the T cream or DHT gel, out of interest? I'm considering one, or both as options.

Also which brand of T cream did you use?

Thanks again for the responses.
I don't think I've ever noticed improvement from T cream.(I did't use it for reducing gyno) I used one that only available in japan. so dunno you can buy it online.
but I think topical DHT cream applyng on gyno is better.
 

olive

Member
Joined
May 17, 2018
Messages
555
Dear Olive, do you know if there is difference between gyno and increased fat in the chest area? I was searching through google but without much success.
As far as I understand it it goes like this:

Gyno is defined as hard fibrous tissue. It’s usually disc shaped and sits directly under the nipple itself. Squeeze around for something hard and round.

A fatty chest is not gyno. But does tend to predate it’s formation. The reason why fat accumulates in the chest instead of elsewhere is usually a systemic hormonal issue - poor insulin sensitivity, inflammation, high estrogen, high prolactin, etc.

Here’s where things get ugly.. fatty tissue is full of aromatase which converts testosterone into estrogen.

So for example, you put on 50lbs. A lot of fat accumulates around your breast area. Local testosterone is being converted to estrogen at an increasing rate via the fatty tissue. The increased circulating estrogen binds to the estrogen receptors in the breast tissue and gyno (breast tissue) begins to develop.

There does seem to be some sort of synergy between prolactin and estrogen; a combination of both tend to quickly create/grow gyno tissue. But I’m not sure of the exact mechanism.

Diary increases prolactin and tends to be fattening.

Edit: I’ve attached a photo for reference.

Edit: The treatment with the best success is raloxifene. 60-120mg/day for 3-6 months should dramatically shrink/destroy the gyno (breast tissue) however you must first address the hormonal/weight issue otherwise the gyno (breast tissue) is likely to return.
 

Attachments

  • 6D892DA2-3AA0-400B-9299-1F8B15E17443.jpeg
    6D892DA2-3AA0-400B-9299-1F8B15E17443.jpeg
    33.2 KB · Views: 81
Last edited:

Broken man

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2016
Messages
1,693
As far as I understand it it goes like this:

Gyno is defined as hard fibrous tissue. It’s usually disc shaped and sits directly under the nipple itself. Squeeze around for something hard and round.

A fatty chest is not gyno. But does tend to predate it’s formation. The reason why fat accumulates in the chest instead of elsewhere is usually a systemic hormonal issue - poor insulin sensitivity, inflammation, high estrogen, high prolactin, etc.

Here’s where things get ugly.. fatty tissue is full of aromatase which converts testosterone into estrogen.

So for example, you put on 50lbs. A lot of fat accumulates around your breast area. Local testosterone is being converted to estrogen at an increasing rate via the fatty tissue. The increased circulating estrogen binds to the estrogen receptors in the breast tissue and gyno (breast tissue) begins to develop.

There does seem to be some sort of synergy between prolactin and estrogen; a combination of both tend to quickly create/grow gyno tissue. But I’m not sure of the exact mechanism.

Diary increases prolactin and tends to be fattening.

Edit: I’ve attached a photo for reference.


Edit: The treatment with the best success is raloxifene. 60-120mg/day for 3-6 months should dramatically shrink/destroy the gyno (breast tissue) however you must first address the hormonal/weight issue otherwise the gyno (breast tissue) is likely to return.
Thank you. I think it could be from hormonal imbalance because I am feeling overtrained even from few pushups. Personal question, are you getting enough of calcium without dairy? I tried lisuride for some time but not much happen, Androsterone is good but I cant take it for more than a week without suffering from joint pain. Like I wrote earlier, succinic acid helped me with energy levels and I think its little bit diuretic or something because I am sweating alot now so my breasts are smaller but still big for a guy 22 years old.
 

olive

Member
Joined
May 17, 2018
Messages
555
Thank you. I think it could be from hormonal imbalance because I am feeling overtrained even from few pushups. Personal question, are you getting enough of calcium without dairy? I tried lisuride for some time but not much happen, Androsterone is good but I cant take it for more than a week without suffering from joint pain. Like I wrote earlier, succinic acid helped me with energy levels and I think its little bit diuretic or something because I am sweating alot now so my breasts are smaller but still big for a guy 22 years old.
I supplement with calcium carbonate. 1g twice per day, diluted in apple cider vinegar + water, with food.
 

Hans

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Aug 24, 2017
Messages
5,856
Oh nice. Can you link some studies? I don’t keep up with exercise science. If there’s a better way to lose fat without the typical stress hormone response, I’m on board.

I know the coffee and the fasted state would be bad, but frankly I got tired of d*cking around with fat loss approaches ala Peat and just wanted the weight gone. I didn’t want to waste hours upon hours of cardio only to find out it doesn’t work, or works very poorly, so I just went with what I knew worked for me. I use K2 and D3, and I take a little nip of leucine and glycine throughout that cardio day to mitigate muscle loss.

I took some cursory looks at HIIT vs LISS and I don’t recall any glaring motivations to use one over the other. Besides, I don’t have any equipment or room to do HIIT.

The rationale for high volume is that the greater the net loss in glycogen content, the greater the insulin sensitivity, which carries over into the cardio the next morning and enhances fatty acid oxidation. This was common practice on the old private forum datbtrue.co.uk and I lament that the site data was not saved when it closed down because other than this forum, I’ve never found another with such a wealth of knowledge and coming together of great minds. Some would actually use 1iu insulin post workout, zero carbs, to squeeze more MPS into that PWO window. That was enough to send some hypo.

I will find some papers when I get some time.
Here's one for 2014: https://www.researchgate.net/public...ith_fasted_versus_non-fasted_aerobic_exercise
"Both groups showed a significant loss of weight (P = 0.0005) and fat mass (P = 0.02) from baseline, but no significant between-group differences were noted in any outcome measure. These findings indicate that body composition changes associated with aerobic exercise in conjunction with a hypocaloric diet are similar regardless whether or not an individual is fasted prior to training."

An interesting study where they compared the use of whey and casein pre-cardio and compared that to fasted cardio. https://www.researchgate.net/public...mill_exercise_in_a_fasted_state_A_pilot_study
" Protein consumption before fasted moderate-intensity treadmill exercise significantly increased post-exercise energy expenditure compared to maltodextrin ingestion and tended to be greater than control. Post-exercise fat oxidation was improved following protein ingestion. Throughout exercise, fasting (control) did not yield more fat oxidation versus carbohydrate or protein, while casein protein allowed for more fat oxidation than whey. These results indicate rates of energy expenditure and fat oxidation can be modulated after CAS protein consumption prior to moderate-intensity cardiovascular exercise and that fasting did not lead to more fat oxidation during or after exercise."

A tit-bit from the introduction from the above-mentioned study:
"two recent training studies have reported similar rates of fat loss between females who performed either fasted or postprandial steady state (50 min at 70% heart rate reserve, 3 days per week) aerobic exercise [12]andhigh-intensity interval training [13] during extended periods of caloric restriction, thus reiterating the notion that caloric
restriction is the primary contributor to fat loss rather than acute changes in fat oxidation"

Plus, exercise seems to potentiate the thermogenic effect of food, but only if it's eaten pre-workout.

This study actually found that fasted cardio didn't spare carbs and increased the cortisol:testosterone ratio.Cardiorespiratory, enzymatic and hormonal responses during and after walking while fasting
"We conclude that fasting prior to low intensity endurance exercise does not seem be advantageous, when it comes to fat loss, compared with the same exercise performed after a meal."
In the study above, fasted cardio and fed cardio utilized almost exactly the same amount of carbs, whereas the fasted group used slightly more fats. The fasted group also had significantly elevated fasting glucose and FFAs post-workout, which is a sign of insulin resistance.

"With a careful examination of the present study data, one might suggest that performing a low intensity aerobic exercise under FAST condition can promote a higher utilization of FFA [39]. Moreover, exercising muscles use FFA as a source of energy [40]. However, when the availability of FFA in blood exceeds the muscles´ ability to capture and oxidize this macronutrient, this surplus turns-over to the adipose tissue and is stored as triglyceride [5]. Even so, in the current study, no differences were found between FAST and FED in the ELP and fat used."

"Over time, higher C levels could favour muscle mass loss, with a possible negative impact on weight loss, since muscle mass has an important influence on total daily energy expenditure [31]. The reduction of C levels in FED and its maintenance in FAST, may indicate that exercise with feeding is a better strategy to oxidize fat while, simultaneously, preserving muscle mass. Indeed, the higher T/C ratio in FED, when compared to FAST condition at 15-min post-exercise, may indicate a positive anabolic balance [32]. However, the present study can not anticipate how long these differences would last and whether the magnitude of elevation and interaction with time would result in any negative outcomes."

So short term, 1 day to 6 weeks, of fasted cardio does not lead to better fat loss. It can be detrimental because it elevates the cortisol:testosterone ratio, elevates fasting glucose and free fatty acids, which in the long run can lead to muscle catabolism and insulin resistance.
Calorie cycling and/or carb cycling are much more beneficial to the individual than being in a chronic caloric deficit. Doing regular refeeds have been shown to almost completely prevent the drop in REE caused by a caloric deficit. Some studies have even found that when cycling 3 days on 3 days off for 12-16 weeks led to equal fat loss compared to the people that were in a chronic deficit, and they didn't experience the metabolic slowdown.

So, if doing refeeds every other day will negate the negative effect of fasted cardio, elevated C:T ratio, glycogen depletion remains to be determined, but I think that even short term elevations of 24 hours (and not 1-2 hours) of cortisol will have a negative effect over time. I do think that fasted cardio and glycogen depletion is a very stressful way of losing fat. As one of the studies above pointed out, eating protein pre-workout boosts REE and doesn't prevent the increase in fat oxidation, thus should not inhibit fat loss in the long term. Adding in some high fructose fruits will keep insulin at a minimum and also help to keep cortisol at a minimum, thus preventing the rise in cortisol. Fructose will also increase REE and potentiate the thermogenic effect of protein, which will then be further potentiated by exercise.

For proper fat loss and long term health, I think minimizing stress as much as possible is the way to go. Dropping fat is still stressful, but it can be done with the least stressful protocols.

That protocol Olive mentioned of insulin, injectible carnitines and fasted cardio sounds like the ultimate recipe for metabolic disaster later on lol.

Lastly, you mention: "Some would actually use 1iu insulin post workout, zero carbs, to squeeze more MPS into that PWO window."
I'm not sure why they would limit carbs to squeeze more MPS into the PWO window. Carbs don't inhibit MPS so why limit it? I understand why they use insulin, but not limit carbs. Full glycogen stores is an anabolic trigger, so it doesn't make sense.
 

inurendotoxin

Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2018
Messages
113
Location
UK
As far as I understand it it goes like this:

Gyno is defined as hard fibrous tissue. It’s usually disc shaped and sits directly under the nipple itself. Squeeze around for something hard and round.

A fatty chest is not gyno. But does tend to predate it’s formation. The reason why fat accumulates in the chest instead of elsewhere is usually a systemic hormonal issue - poor insulin sensitivity, inflammation, high estrogen, high prolactin, etc.

Here’s where things get ugly.. fatty tissue is full of aromatase which converts testosterone into estrogen.

So for example, you put on 50lbs. A lot of fat accumulates around your breast area. Local testosterone is being converted to estrogen at an increasing rate via the fatty tissue. The increased circulating estrogen binds to the estrogen receptors in the breast tissue and gyno (breast tissue) begins to develop.

There does seem to be some sort of synergy between prolactin and estrogen; a combination of both tend to quickly create/grow gyno tissue. But I’m not sure of the exact mechanism.

Diary increases prolactin and tends to be fattening.

Edit: I’ve attached a photo for reference.

Edit: The treatment with the best success is raloxifene. 60-120mg/day for 3-6 months should dramatically shrink/destroy the gyno (breast tissue) however you must first address the hormonal/weight issue otherwise the gyno (breast tissue) is likely to return.

Some really useful info here, thanks.

I'm curious if you have personal experience of Raloxifene? It seems to have mixed reviews, at least on this forum.

Some have described it causing a 'rebound effect', essentially causing gyno to come back worse.

In this thread, Haidut even lists it among the synthetic estrogens: “Anti Estrogens” Are Estrogenic
 

RisingSun

Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2018
Messages
324
Some really useful info here, thanks.

I'm curious if you have personal experience of Raloxifene? It seems to have mixed reviews, at least on this forum.

Some have described it causing a 'rebound effect', essentially causing gyno to come back worse.

In this thread, Haidut even lists it among the synthetic estrogens: “Anti Estrogens” Are Estrogenic

Ralox is a SERM, no rebound with these.

You risk rebound everytime you use a competitive AI instead of a suicidal one.

Why some people still go for anything else than third generation suicidal AI like exemestane is beyond me.
 

inurendotoxin

Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2018
Messages
113
Location
UK
I just wanted to share that in terms of treating gyno, and other estrogen dominant symptoms, topical Aspirin seems to work best for me.

My gyno seems to flare up and down relative to eating, drinking habits, stress, plus any other supplements I am experimenting with.

@japanesedude Haidut had a 11-keto DHT, but I can't find it now, is it no longer available? So would it have same anti-estrogenic effects topically as DHT?

For myself, most anti-estrogen supps seem to produce 'rebound' effects after a few uses, so I would personally encourage due caution if using these.


Crushing an aspirin tablet into a powder then mixing into some hand sanitizer has been a consistently effective remedy. I apply topically to my gyno and beer gut. Sometimes I have added Niacinamide and/or Taurine powder, but I haven't noticed any enhanced effects beyond Aspirin on its own, although they don't seem to do any harm.

Effects are gradual but noticeable after 2-3 applications.

Also I'm sure the massage I mentioned earlier did undo a lot of damage, and greatly settled down the muscle tissue underneath. I was persistent with it over 2 days, working out all the knots.

I think surgery should always be a last resort. Peating has taught me that the human body is very maleable. There are usually other things you can try.
 
Joined
Jan 4, 2021
Messages
50
I just wanted to share that in terms of treating gyno, and other estrogen dominant symptoms, topical Aspirin seems to work best for me.

My gyno seems to flare up and down relative to eating, drinking habits, stress, plus any other supplements I am experimenting with.



For myself, most anti-estrogen supps seem to produce 'rebound' effects after a few uses, so I would personally encourage due caution if using these.


Crushing an aspirin tablet into a powder then mixing into some hand sanitizer has been a consistently effective remedy. I apply topically to my gyno and beer gut. Sometimes I have added Niacinamide and/or Taurine powder, but I haven't noticed any enhanced effects beyond Aspirin on its own, although they don't seem to do any harm.

Effects are gradual but noticeable after 2-3 applications.

Also I'm sure the massage I mentioned earlier did undo a lot of damage, and greatly settled down the muscle tissue underneath. I was persistent with it over 2 days, working out all the knots.

I think surgery should always be a last resort. Peating has taught me that the human body is very maleable. There are usually other things you can try.
So do you use this as a way to manage the gyno or did this actually get rid of it permanently?
 
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Messages
10,501
I think metergoline, bromocriptine et al lower prolactin and improve gyno. I think prolactin is to blame for gyno.
 

Broken man

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2016
Messages
1,693
I think metergoline, bromocriptine et al lower prolactin and improve gyno. I think prolactin is to blame for gyno.
I was using metergoline from idealabs for 1 month and had no change with my gyno (its lipomastia to be clear), still dopamine antagonist should help but didnt. My dose was 4 drops, maybe its low but my prolactin was mid range on tests so I hope it will be enough. Using more drops would be very expensive.
 

milkboi

Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2018
Messages
1,627
Location
Germany
SERMs for Gyno, Raloxifen or Tamoxifen in combination with an AI, best would be Exemestane. Yes they have estrogenic effects but in my books they are worth it if they can reduce/get rid of Gyno. I heard their MOA is reducing estrogens effect on breast tissue, so combined with an AI, they can reduce estrogen signaling in the breast to close to zero.

You could also just nuke estrogen to zero with Letrozole but that‘s a surefire way to feel like ***t so I wouldn’t recommend it.
 

SonOfEurope

Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2016
Messages
602
Congrats on the weight loss.
Recent research found that fasted cardio doesn't lead to better fat oxidation or fat loss than fed cardio. Fasted training also increases the cortisol to T ratio which leads to greater muscle loss, which will ultimately lead to a lower RMR.
The coffee will just further boost cortisol release prior to fasted training.
Also, doing activities that burn fat will increase glucose oxidation after training, whereas using glucose during training will burn fat after training. This makes weights and HIIT superior for fat loss.

Why high volume low intensity training? The heavy weights is best for retaining muscle, and when done short and explosive will boost androgens significantly.

I agree with the calorie cycling and that a caloric deficit shouldn't be done continuously, so I'm glad this approach worked for you.

As always perfectly explained!

Thanks Hans
 

tommyg130

Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2021
Messages
664
Location
new york
I just wanted to share that in terms of treating gyno, and other estrogen dominant symptoms, topical Aspirin seems to work best for me.

My gyno seems to flare up and down relative to eating, drinking habits, stress, plus any other supplements I am experimenting with.



For myself, most anti-estrogen supps seem to produce 'rebound' effects after a few uses, so I would personally encourage due caution if using these.


Crushing an aspirin tablet into a powder then mixing into some hand sanitizer has been a consistently effective remedy. I apply topically to my gyno and beer gut. Sometimes I have added Niacinamide and/or Taurine powder, but I haven't noticed any enhanced effects beyond Aspirin on its own, although they don't seem to do any harm.

Effects are gradual but noticeable after 2-3 applications.

Also I'm sure the massage I mentioned earlier did undo a lot of damage, and greatly settled down the muscle tissue underneath. I was persistent with it over 2 days, working out all the knots.

I think surgery should always be a last resort. Peating has taught me that the human body is very maleable. There are usually other things you can try.
Could you mix it into water also ? The apsprin
 

Jremy25

Member
Joined
May 23, 2017
Messages
160
I recently purchased topical 10% DHT gel and have been using it directly on my gyno for the last two weeks and can notice a definite reduction in nipple puffyness and can feel the gland is not as hard as it previously was.

I’m going to try this for 4 months and hopefully nuke my pubertal gyno. Note that I’ve had this gyno for years now.

The vendor has confirmed that there is DMSO in the dht gel so I’m guessing this is why its working for me whereas Andractim did nothing when I tried it.
 

Judd Crane

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2017
Messages
235
I recently purchased topical 10% DHT gel and have been using it directly on my gyno for the last two weeks and can notice a definite reduction in nipple puffyness and can feel the gland is not as hard as it previously was.

I’m going to try this for 4 months and hopefully nuke my pubertal gyno. Note that I’ve had this gyno for years now.

The vendor has confirmed that there is DMSO in the dht gel so I’m guessing this is why its working for me whereas Andractim did nothing when I tried it.
Where did you get the 10% DHT gel?
 

Jremy25

Member
Joined
May 23, 2017
Messages
160
Where did you get the 10% DHT gel?
I got it through alphagels. They’re an UGL that sells transdermals.

I was recommended them by a reputable bodybuilding forum member and some reddit users. You can find them on reddit they’re quite well known.

I’m planning to send some samples to Janoshik for testing but seems like legit DHT.
 

supercoolguy

Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2015
Messages
411
I supplement with calcium carbonate. 1g twice per day, diluted in apple cider vinegar + water, with food.
Any particular source for the Ca carbonate?

Why the ACV mix? Ive heard of it, just dont recall why.

Regards
 

Yody

Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2019
Messages
82
I demolished a fibrous nodule on my left nip that I obtained years ago from HCG monotherapy, using 1-4 drops of androsterone topically, for only 6-8 weeks iirc.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom