Germ Theory Controversy

Kris

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Can someone explain why RP is against germ theory? Ok, germs maybe do not cause sickness coming from outside, but our body does from inside. But this is a bit one sided way of looking at things. For instance, I travel often to India and get at time Amoebic infection. I need to use antibiotics to kill these buggers. The issue here would be not my body being unhealthy but an attack by evil germs. Or am I missing something?
 

Jon2547

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Can someone explain why RP is against germ theory? Ok, germs maybe do not cause sickness coming from outside, but our body does from inside. But this is a bit one sided way of looking at things. For instance, I travel often to India and get at time Amoebic infection. I need to use antibiotics to kill these buggers. The issue here would be not my body being unhealthy but an attack by evil germs. Or am I missing something?
Germ theory is 2 dimensional and over simplified. Proponents of germ theory ignored the flaws and made it a political thing.

In the early 1980s, scientists were seeing that AIDS was connected to drug abuse, particular amyl and butyl nitrates, aka poppers. That is, the American version of AIDS. Then all of a sudden one day there was a press conference with Margaret Heckler present , this was in the mid 1980s, and the statement was made, with absolutely no proof, that "HIV IS THE PROBABLE CAUSE OF AIDS".. then the next day they just dropped the word "probable" and from that point on, no dissenting voices were allowed. Sound familiar?

Peter Duesberg was blacklisted.
 

InChristAlone

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There are bacteria which thrive in polluted slimy toxic environments yes. Infectious disease plummets (no need for vaccines) when you have access to clean water not full of poop and pollution. But that's speaking about bacteria. Viruses are a completely different story. I believe our own cells produce the viruses in response to stress. Peat said stress causes retroviruses to explode into the bloodstream.
 
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Kris

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i am mosty referring to bacteria and protozoan, not viruses. of course, if the outer environment is clean, there is no reason to be infected by these things, but this is often not the case (as in India) or one can get food poisoning in any restaurant and when left untreated this may cause problems. For instance, if amoebic infection is not treated (and I know many people who just lived with it, or use alternative medicine which does not work in this case), these germs begin to colonise the body and can even enter the liver. So I would think that those who fully refute the germ theory are not really in touch with reality.
 

InChristAlone

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i am mosty referring to bacteria and protozoan, not viruses. of course, if the outer environment is clean, there is no reason to be infected by these things, but this is often not the case (as in India) or one can get food poisoning in any restaurant and when left untreated this may cause problems. For instance, if amoebic infection is not treated (and I know many people who just lived with it, or use alternative medicine which does not work in this case), these germs begin to colonise the body and can even enter the liver. So I would think that those who fully refute the germ theory are not really in touch with reality.
"The pathogen means nothing the terrain is everything"

How did humans survive before antibiotics?!!!!! Not to mention the 1.38 billion people living in India. They must all be seeking treatment for pathogens non stop to stay alive! Their bodies must be swarming with pathogens like the walking dead.
 
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Kris

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"The pathogen means nothing the terrain is everything"

How did humans survive before antibiotics?!!!!! Not to mention the 1.38 billion people living in India. They must all be seeking treatment for pathogens non stop to stay alive! Their bodies must be swarming with pathogens like the walking dead.
actually people did not survive so well. the life span was very short. even a small injury could result in deadly infection. as to Indians, yes, they are pretty unhealthy; hospitals are always full. but one thing to take into consideration is their diet. They practically live on PUFA, and their diet lacks the complete protein, with the exception of some milk. In the older times, it was different and their diet was more healthy.

the concept that terrain is everything is quite elusive. it presupposes that if we live in sterile environment, we should not be harmed by pathogens. but there is no such a thing as perfect terrain.

another thing that I was wondering are STD infections. Ok, sex exchange is not a perfect terrain :)

I don't think that non-germ theory really holds the water, unless it is being interpreted in a more flexible manner. to taken to an extreme, it is just silly
 
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Kris

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i think that the Non-germ theory just says that you cannot contract illness via it being transmitted by other people. still the issue of STD comes to mind/
 

Miggie

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Look up german new medicine for more info on this. Basically germs have only been found as a correlation. They are basically the garbagemen of the body and they clean up. When the body gets inflammation it starts its healing process and with that the bacteria come around to that area effected.
 
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Kris

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Look up german new medicine for more info on this. Basically germs have only been found as a correlation. They are basically the garbagemen of the body and they clean up. When the body gets inflammation it starts its healing process and with that the bacteria come around to that area effected.

He seems to be a controversial figure, borderline charlatan. at least from my first look. but anyway, saying that microbes are not a cause of a disease at all, goes again our experience. Such as amoebic infection for instance. Ray Peat takes some antibiotics at times.
 

lilsticky

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Louis Pasteur was a known plagiarist. id like to hear ray talk about him and Bechamp
 

Perry Staltic

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actually people did not survive so well. the life span was very short

The average lifespan was shorter in part because it was skewed by high infant mortality. Filthy living conditions, overwork, poor nutrition and wars were other factors that weakened the terrain. If those things were minimized people lived as long then as they do now, and were definitely hardier and healthier.
 

Perry Staltic

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He seems to be a controversial figure, borderline charlatan. at least from my first look. but anyway, saying that microbes are not a cause of a disease at all, goes again our experience. Such as amoebic infection for instance. Ray Peat takes some antibiotics at times.

Microbes are not the primary cause. They are secondary to terrain. Impaired terrain is the primary cause for disease. Microbes are just opportunists.
 
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Kris

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ok, so why RP says that SIBO is bad or that it is good to eat carrot salad to cleanse the gun from bad bacteria? Is it it in contradiction to the GTD?
 

RealNeat

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ok, so why RP says that SIBO is bad or that it is good to eat carrot salad to cleanse the gun from bad bacteria? Is it it in contradiction to the GTD?
Because like any living organism they can produce waste products. If a person has slow digestion and elimination (hypoT symptoms) then bacterial byproducts build up causing issues. Bacteria break down non living matter, they essentially return things back to soil to start life once again, the closer one gets to death in their composition by way of mistreating their body the more these bacteria will be invited to do their thing.
 

InChristAlone

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actually people did not survive so well. the life span was very short. even a small injury could result in deadly infection. as to Indians, yes, they are pretty unhealthy; hospitals are always full. but one thing to take into consideration is their diet. They practically live on PUFA, and their diet lacks the complete protein, with the exception of some milk. In the older times, it was different and their diet was more healthy.

the concept that terrain is everything is quite elusive. it presupposes that if we live in sterile environment, we should not be harmed by pathogens. but there is no such a thing as perfect terrain.

another thing that I was wondering are STD infections. Ok, sex exchange is not a perfect terrain :)

I don't think that non-germ theory really holds the water, unless it is being interpreted in a more flexible manner. to taken to an extreme, it is just silly
A simple experiment you could do to prove terrain theory would be to test how quickly bacteria start breaking down a corpse as soon as it is dead. They eat garbage. They do not eat living material full of oxygen. Food poisoning is not exactly the same as bacteria breaking down a corpse. Most people get over food borne pathogens if they do not get dehydrated. It's the dehydration that kills, not the bacteria eating our guts out. There are also cytokine storm reactions, but that can be treated and doesn't prove the pathogen is eating your guts out like you are already dead. People who have taken care of their terrain have expelled parasites naturally.
 
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Kris

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ok, i am still seeking some contradictions here. bacterias are not contagious or does not cause directly sickness. they can wreck havoc if something is wrong with out tissues. but let me still return to the example of amoebic infection. one consumes the water or food that is polluted and gets infected even if one is healthy. or does it mean that one is not healthy? but gram positive bacterias are present in every person so nobody is healthy following this logic.

Regarding dehydration, it is a rare occurrence. I am actually doing occasionally dry fasts and feel that they are beneficial. once, i did not drink anything for 72h while being very active and there was no problem. i think that people drink too much, they are over-hydrated.

can someone explain to me what 'terrain' means? is the terrain of our body or the term also includes our immediate surroundings?
 
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ok, i am still seeking some contradictions here. bacterias are not contagious or does not cause directly sickness. they can wreck havoc if something is wrong with out tissues. but let me still return to the example of amoebic infection. one consumes the water or food that is polluted and gets infected even if one is healthy. or does it mean that one is not healthy? but gram positive bacterias are present in every person so nobody is healthy following this logic.

Regarding dehydration, it is a rare occurrence. I am actually doing occasionally dry fasts and feel that they are beneficial. once, i did not drink anything for 72h while being very active and there was no problem. i think that people drink too much, they are over-hydrated.

can someone explain to me what 'terrain' means? is the terrain of our body or the term also includes our immediate surroundings?
The lyme bacteria infects healthy people as well.
 

InChristAlone

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Charles ROBIN, in his "Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Medical Sciences",

"Let us look a bit beyond theory and specify the role of putrefaction in these terms :
M. BECHAMP explains in advance why putrefaction is seen much more rapidly in
animals which have died of exhaustion, rather than by other means; it is, if you will,
exhaustion which makes the substance of the tissues and the humours more easily
fermentable or putrifiable, and at the same time brings on more quickly the
transformation of natural micro-leavens into the state of bacteria of putrefaction."

"The micro-leavens do not die, they continue their action; however, as the products
of this action are not removed according as they are formed, some new conditions
are formed, the milieu becomes cluttered with material which was destined to be
used or to be eliminated, and the function of the micro-leavens changes as a result
of this very cause or as they turn into bacteria. Thus appears what we call
putrefaction, a phenomenon which the best minds have, from early on, considered
as a fermentation. However, in the balance, what eats us and destroys us after
death, is that same thing that lived in us, without us .... Life is a succession of little
deaths, or, if you prefer, a continued putrefaction."​

This was a scientific demonstration of the truth of the prescience of GOETHE when he wrote :

"Death is an artifice of nature to produce an abundance of life."

In that same conference at Lyons, the professor from Montpellier made reference to Hippocrates' aphorism :

"Quae faciun in homine sano actiones sanas, eadem in
oegroto morbosas"
[Healthy actions are the same in
sick and morbid]

He added : That which makes us live is also that which makes
us ill.

and turned his lecture first to the consideration of the healthy processes that
take place in the healthy organism, as :

"Before looking to understand the abnormal conditions of life that lead to illness, it
is necessary to understand the normal conditions which lead to health. It is only
after this double study that we may try to penetrate the mystery of death."

He insisted on the importance of the micro-leavens which animate the healthy
actions of which Hippocrates spoke, and then he specified that as well,

"In the micro-leavens themselves, the cells, the tissues, the organs, there are
materials which, not being structured, are not living....These materials, varying
according to the regions, the different departments of the organism in question, are
mixtures of numerous substances as much organic (first causes) as minerals,
either in a state of solution in aqueous liquids or semi-liquids, or in very aqueous
insoluble masses ... this is the matter that we call intercellular, intertissual, or that
part of the intracellular mass that is not organized. This constitutes what I have
called plasma in the cell and the micro-leaven."​

And it is by his discovery of the micro-leavens which gave the proof of the life and the function of the cells, of which the juxtaposition formed, since TURPIN, the living organism.
"It is because the micro-leavens are gifted with an independent and individual life,
each according to its type, that there are some of them, functionally different and
able to change function, in the different centres of organization, and that the [theory
of] the protoplasmic system, false in its principle, is as false in its consequences as
it is experimentally. It is because it is false that the [theory of] the microbial system
is equally false. Finally, because this is so it is necessary to be cautious when one
wants to practice the supposed microbial vaccinations to induce immunity; because
they do not know what it is that they do, neither do those who suppose that there is
in the living organism only matter comparable to must, to wine, or to beer; because
one does not know in what sense these practices may change the aptitude to
change function which exists in the micro-leavens of the organism."

"Nothing is lost, nothing is created ... all is transformed. Nothing is the prey of death. All is the prey of life."-- Antoine Béchamp

 
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Kris

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I am prone to think that both theories are right and there is no particular contradiction between them. if the body is perfectly healthy, it will not be affected negatively by microbes, but the body is never perfectly healthy so it is occasionally susceptible to illness caused by pathogens. getting infected by food or other people's microbes is just one example. but what about getting a serious cut on one's foot or some other external injury in an unhygienic environment, or a war wound? without antibiotics the most healthy person would get infected by bacteria and even die. To throw Louis Pasteur out of the window in the name of Terrain theory would be very unwise. He supposingly said at the death bed: “Bernard was right: the pathogen is nothing, the terrain is everything.” I don't think this anecdote is true. If anything, he could have said 'terrain is the most important, the pathogen is secondary'
 

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