Genes Do NOT Matter (much)

Discussion in 'Genes, Radiation' started by haidut, Dec 30, 2013.

  1. michael94

    michael94 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2015
    Messages:
    1,661

    not sure how that's relevant to the data but ok, here's these sources then http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3817005/

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2138795
     
  2. jaguar43

    jaguar43 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2012
    Messages:
    1,306
    More or less Conflict of interest. Same way every industry manipulates data to fit their argument. Ray Peat has written about those dangers( especially the genetic theory). That study also thank John Polmin for his "insight", though it seem sort of biased to do so.
     
  3. jaguar43

    jaguar43 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2012
    Messages:
    1,306
    I would like to add, that this study seems to reinforce other studies ( that came to the same conclusion) that had been criticized with flaws . Here is a quote

    So first they say that each study can stand alone. Then they conclude that there are major flaws within each study, and how each study reinforces each other. Thats extremely suspicious.

    I would take this study ( and anyone mention in the study) with a grain of salt. It seems almost intentional.
     
  4. michael94

    michael94 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2015
    Messages:
    1,661
    "Then they conclude that there are major flaws within each study, and how each study reinforces each other."

    I don't see them doing that anywhere. They say that each study on it's own provides an incomplete picture ( though still useful ) and that the studies together are complementary and non-contradictory ( i.e. reinforcing ).


    Ok, the source is biased. Guess what? You are also biased. Everyone is biased. Exposing a bias in some source is nothing more than circumstantial reason to do further investigation. It does not allow you to dismiss the data off the bat. I can play your game too. The University of Colorado is known for being very not racist and inclusive, so any attempts to dismiss the data in that paper should be taken with a grain of salt.

    If you were to show good reason to doubt that genetic factors increase with age and explain the data contradicting such then that would be constructive. Not to mention, it didn't say anything racist in the page I linked. It was literally just talking about some data that can be easily fact checked.
     
  5. jaguar43

    jaguar43 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2012
    Messages:
    1,306
    They didn't use the word flaws, true, but they used "weakness". As if being biased, which they did use by the way, is a weakness in any study (sarcasm).

    How am I biased ? I don't have any ulterior motive for making such claims. Nor did I call anyone a racist. All I said was the author of the book you posted was funded by the pioneer fund and had associating with Eugenic institutes. All you have to do is search eugenics in the search box on the Ray Peat website to see what he thinks of eugenics.

    Why do I have to disprove that genetic factors increase with age ? They have to prove that genetic factors increase with age. That burden is on those who make such claim.
     
  6. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Messages:
    16,431
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA / Europe
    Adding to the evidence against genetic determination, a recent study found that inflammation levels and not telomere length predicted who will become centenarian and supercentenarian.
    http://www.ebiomedicine.com/article/S23 ... 5/abstract

    Of course, the genetic counter-argument will be that there are genes that determine if a person will have high or low levels of inflammation. I guess until the entire human genome is mapped this argument will continue.
     
  7. Suikerbuik

    Suikerbuik Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2014
    Messages:
    700
  8. michael94

    michael94 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2015
    Messages:
    1,661

    There is an example of your bias, because they did so with the data from Colorado adoption and twins raised apart study. Unless you think those sources falsified data.

    I don't have a bone to pick with anyone but I was just trying to show the genes do play a role, and you can hold such a position without being a genetic determinist. Some things might be mostly environment, others have shown to be mostly genetic. At any rate, it doesn't matter too much in the context of what this forum is about. It's not like you would behave any differently, we are here to improve metabolism/vitality/health whatever you want to call it because environment clearly does have the overwhelming effect there.

    I will add one last thing, which is while I do hold that genetics plays a big role on certain outcomes in life, there is a difference between that and optimizing happiness/health. I think those things are the most important after all and that everyone can maximize them without concern of genetics being a limiting factor.
     
  9. NathanK

    NathanK Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2015
    Messages:
    590
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Just happened to run across this. He has a nice rant on the failure of the human genome project and how he knew it would fail from the beginning (~19min mark). Also how 23andMe was bound to fail based on the assumed predictive nature of genes in disease.

    His controversial thoughts on morphic resonance and studies where rats, birds, and fish inheriting traits/instincts beyond genetic explanation was interesting (up to the ~19min mark).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ig6YDpOvkis
     
  10. Ella

    Ella Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2012
    Messages:
    600
    NathanK, thanks so much for sharing. Absolutely, love Rupert Sheldrake's work. Brilliant, yes the "Missing Heritability Problem". Genes do not explain everything. There a literally thousands of Russian papers that have not been translated yet. Stuff that we in the west are just coming to terms with the Russians have been researching for over 75 years.
     
  11. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Messages:
    16,431
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA / Europe
    Mice inherit the fears of the their fathers:
    http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com ... r-fathers/
     
  12. jaguar43

    jaguar43 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2012
    Messages:
    1,306
    No, I think those studies are biased because authors said so themselves. They then called it a "weakness". What should people make of it ? Accept it, and go on. Absolutely not. Being Bias isn't a weakness, its more like calling something true when the outcome has control to fit their argument.

    Second they cite in their acknowledgements a man who has been known to be a Eugenicist and been funded by groups like the pioneer fund. Thanking him for their insight. That would be like a study showing how estrogen is good and then the same authors acknowledges a Scientist funded by the estrogen industry and thanking him for his insight. I think that its a conflict of interest.
     
  13. jb116

    jb116 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2015
    Messages:
    821
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    NJ
    did I miss something? in that article it states several times about lower cortisol with higher stress.
     
  14. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Messages:
    16,431
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA / Europe
    After you get PTSD you are in the last stage of the "adaptation syndrome" so your HPA responsiveness is blunted. You don't react much to stressful events b/c you are exhausted. If cortisol is high, you are probably still "adapting" and have "milder" symptoms of adaptation such as depression. If that is true then it should be easier to recover from depression than fro PTSD and so far the evidence bears this our.
    Here is excerpt from one of the studies in that article:
    http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10. ... .2005-0550

    "...With respect to social regulation, babies being raised under conditions of neglect or abusive care have low ambient cortisol levels (15). Offspring of Macaque monkeys exposed to maternal stress resulting from unpredictable foraging demands during a critical, early postpartum developmental window show lasting corticotrophin-releasing factor elevations and low cortisol levels (16), a profile observed in PTSD (3). Marmoset monkeys exposed to early maternal separations (17) and monkeys exposed to stressful peer-rearing (18) also show reduced basal cortisol (17). Even in rodents, results of cross-fostering studies demonstrate that even brief exposures in postnatal maternal care during a critical period can have permanent neuroendocrine effects in offspring (19). Thus, mothers with PTSD postpartum may display different or inconsistent behavior toward their offspring, affecting glucocorticoid regulation."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1175 ... t=Abstract
    "...We have previously demonstrated lower mean 24-h urinary cortisol excretion in adult offspring of Holocaust survivors with parental posttraumatic stress disorder (and lifetime PTSD), compared to offspring without parental PTSD, and to demographically similar comparison subjects. In the current study, we re-analyze data from our previously published report, plus four new subjects, to further examine the relationship between cortisol and severity of PTSD symptoms in offspring and their parents. We also examine the contribution of current depressive disorder to cortisol levels. Two-way analysis of variance revealed lifetime PTSD to be associated with significantly lower cortisol levels, while depressive disorder was associated with higher cortisol levels. The presence of parental PTSD was associated with lower cortisol excretion in the offspring only if both parents were affected. There were significant negative correlations between severity of parental PTSD and offspring urinary cortisol excretion, and between severity of offspring PTSD symptoms and urinary cortisol levels. The findings amplify our earlier descriptions of children of Holocaust survivors with PTSD as a sample 'at risk' for PTSD by demonstrating relationships between lowered cortisol excretion in these offspring and their experience of their parents' PTSD symptoms."
     
  15. jb116

    jb116 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2015
    Messages:
    821
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    NJ
    What would be a marker in distinguishing that then? Could it mean simply that a stress doesn't actually exist for that individual?
     
  16. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Messages:
    16,431
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA / Europe
    On the contrary, the stress has become part of that individual. In a sense they are overwhelmed by the world and try to avoid it as much as they can. Still, if you believe the official DSM-IV and DSM-V manuals the symptoms of PTSD and depression overlap a lot.
    Biochemically, as the studies showed a person with PTSD has elevated levels of CRH and low levels of cortisol. That suggests dysregulated HPA response since typically elevated CRH should lead to elevated ACTH and thus elevated cortisol. Depressed people have high CRH and high cortisol, which suggests that in a sense they are still struggling, while the PTSD patient has succumbed to the learned helplessness.
     
  17. jb116

    jb116 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2015
    Messages:
    821
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    NJ
    Ah ok, I was missing that bit. So the marker is elevated CRH without the usual next stage of increased ACTH. I can see that both ptsd and the "regular" stressed, depressed person would then be most likely hypothyroid since the pit. gland is in charge as they say.
     
  18. NathanK

    NathanK Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2015
    Messages:
    590
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Youre welcome. Unfortunately, I don't think there's any rush to have any of it translated and taken seriously with the current popular gene focused approach
     
  19. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Messages:
    16,431
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA / Europe
    Yep, as long as the pituitary is in charge health is not optimal. This applied to other pituitary hormones as well but chiefly prolactin and growth hormone, which also happen to be elevated in mental disorders like depression and PTSD.
    I think there are quite a few studies on thyroid curing depression, so not sure why this is not a more widely accepted approach given the low potential for side effects.
     
  20. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Messages:
    16,431
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA / Europe
Loading...