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Generative Energy # 9: A Bioenergetic View Of Weight Loss (with Haidut)
- Thread starter Dan W
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Generative Energy + Haidut #3: A Bioenergetic View of Weight Loss
Ha, more like I know that I don't know, but thanks anyways. I like doing this, it is much more fun than all my other "hobbies" combined.
franko said:
Ha, more like I know that I don't know, but thanks anyways. I like doing this, it is much more fun than all my other "hobbies" combined.
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Generative Energy + Haidut #3: A Bioenergetic View of Weight Loss
http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/ ... fatty.html
I think Ray Peat wrote that ketones and short and medium chain fatty acids are "what we would expect of an ideal energy source", and "are used even more easily than glucose, at least in some circumstances." (Generative Energy, pages 66-67)
haidut, do you have any ideas on ketone metabolism that you may not have talked about in your interview?haidut said:
http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/ ... fatty.html
I think Ray Peat wrote that ketones and short and medium chain fatty acids are "what we would expect of an ideal energy source", and "are used even more easily than glucose, at least in some circumstances." (Generative Energy, pages 66-67)
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Generative Energy + Haidut #3: A Bioenergetic View of Weight Loss
Ketones, while good in emergency situations, are still a biomarker of stress and damage the pancreas ability to both sense sugar levels and produce enough insulin. I think the beta cells in the pancreas are very sensitive to fat presence in the blood and are the first to start dying once fatty acid levels become high enough to displace glucose from oxidation.
brandonk said:
Ketones, while good in emergency situations, are still a biomarker of stress and damage the pancreas ability to both sense sugar levels and produce enough insulin. I think the beta cells in the pancreas are very sensitive to fat presence in the blood and are the first to start dying once fatty acid levels become high enough to displace glucose from oxidation.
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Generative Energy + Haidut #3: A Bioenergetic View of Weight Loss
But MCTs can be absorbed in the small intestine even if lipase is deficient, and using MCT nutritionally can improve pancreatitis/steatorrhoea.
To me it seems what Masterjohn and Ray Peat are pointing out is that glucose is spared (or or even created, but not displaced) by the use of MCT/ketones nutritionally (as distinct from stress or starvation, when you are forced to synthesize ketones yourself.
Veech was an early proponent of the use of ketones/MCT nutritionally:
http://www.coconutketones.com/pdfs/veec ... 01_241.pdf
I think pancreatitis/steatorrhoea often results from inability to digest LCTs (and of course from PUFA).haidut said:
But MCTs can be absorbed in the small intestine even if lipase is deficient, and using MCT nutritionally can improve pancreatitis/steatorrhoea.
To me it seems what Masterjohn and Ray Peat are pointing out is that glucose is spared (or or even created, but not displaced) by the use of MCT/ketones nutritionally (as distinct from stress or starvation, when you are forced to synthesize ketones yourself.
Veech was an early proponent of the use of ketones/MCT nutritionally:
http://www.coconutketones.com/pdfs/veec ... 01_241.pdf
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Westside PUFAs
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Generative Energy + Haidut #3: A Bioenergetic View of Weight Loss
But if it's the rice hull that contains chemicals that are specifically 5-AR inhibitors, then the hairless analogy doesn't make sense because it is white rice that was the staple for a long time. What's interesting though is those same hairless Asian mens ability to have great heads of hair, much more so than Europeans. That very straight thick front hair line. But the hairless body thing can extend to anyone because you can find it in any ethnicity.
haidut said:
But if it's the rice hull that contains chemicals that are specifically 5-AR inhibitors, then the hairless analogy doesn't make sense because it is white rice that was the staple for a long time. What's interesting though is those same hairless Asian mens ability to have great heads of hair, much more so than Europeans. That very straight thick front hair line. But the hairless body thing can extend to anyone because you can find it in any ethnicity.
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Spokey
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Generative Energy + Haidut #3: A Bioenergetic View of Weight Loss
The major rice producing areas of Japan, also happen to have some of the lowest life expectancies for that country before and after WWII. Read into that what you will.
The major rice producing areas of Japan, also happen to have some of the lowest life expectancies for that country before and after WWII. Read into that what you will.
Westside PUFAs
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Generative Energy + Haidut #3: A Bioenergetic View of Weight Loss
Source?
Spokey said:
Source?
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Spokey
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Generative Energy + Haidut #3: A Bioenergetic View of Weight Loss
I'll look for the reference (I'm pretty certain it's in Japanese though), but until I find that you might find these two maps interesting:
http://stats-japan.com/t/kiji/10665
http://stats-japan.com/t/kiji/11415
Certainly the north of Japan produces more rice than the south, and they do seem to have the poorest life expectancies. I'm not claiming cause (because, well we all know why), but it's an interesting correlation all the same.
It's worth baring in mind the northern diet generally seems to include a lot of beans and greens too, which from our point of view probably needs to be considered confounding. I know that because I spent a fair amount of time there. I also personally noted the relative scarcity of rice in Okinawa, they have a lot more interesting variety in their starchy foods and a high availability of fruit most of the year (like green satsumas, green on the outside, orange in the middle. How do you know if they're ripe?)
I'll look for the reference (I'm pretty certain it's in Japanese though), but until I find that you might find these two maps interesting:
http://stats-japan.com/t/kiji/10665
http://stats-japan.com/t/kiji/11415
Certainly the north of Japan produces more rice than the south, and they do seem to have the poorest life expectancies. I'm not claiming cause (because, well we all know why), but it's an interesting correlation all the same.
It's worth baring in mind the northern diet generally seems to include a lot of beans and greens too, which from our point of view probably needs to be considered confounding. I know that because I spent a fair amount of time there. I also personally noted the relative scarcity of rice in Okinawa, they have a lot more interesting variety in their starchy foods and a high availability of fruit most of the year (like green satsumas, green on the outside, orange in the middle. How do you know if they're ripe?)
Generative Energy + Haidut #3: A Bioenergetic View of Weight Loss
I agree with that - MCT is oxidized with ease similarly to sugar and requires no transport for getting into the mitochondria. But whether long term subsistence on ketones is good for us I am not sure. After all, it is a sign of lack of oxidation of sugar. I suppose the fact that fat oxidation tends to inhibit excessive glycolysis is what is behind the positive effects in some cases like epileptic seizures and cancer. But in the latter case, the cancer will get its sugar from the muscles and thus greatly contribute to cachexia. Also, burning fat chronically will increase serotonin, especially in the brain.
brandonk said:
I agree with that - MCT is oxidized with ease similarly to sugar and requires no transport for getting into the mitochondria. But whether long term subsistence on ketones is good for us I am not sure. After all, it is a sign of lack of oxidation of sugar. I suppose the fact that fat oxidation tends to inhibit excessive glycolysis is what is behind the positive effects in some cases like epileptic seizures and cancer. But in the latter case, the cancer will get its sugar from the muscles and thus greatly contribute to cachexia. Also, burning fat chronically will increase serotonin, especially in the brain.
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Generative Energy + Haidut #3: A Bioenergetic View of Weight Loss
Serotonin brain chemistry is poorly understood from what I know, and relies too much on in vitro work and receptors that I think Ray Peat has said are unreliable in good science? It seems unlikely to me that ketones act the same as fatty acids generally with respect to serotonin, since testosterone and progesterone are ketones.
For me, excess serotonin is associated with an immotile gut, and MCT noticeably improves gut motility.
It's interesting that I think ketones in field tests specifically prevent cachexia and decline in muscle mass among cancer patients, at least from what I've seen. Cahill and Veech (and others) theorize that the body uses nutritional ketones to spare glucose and glycogen somehow, although the pathways may not be known yet, so that in theory the glucose can be available where needed, and muscle mass can also be spared.haidut said:
Serotonin brain chemistry is poorly understood from what I know, and relies too much on in vitro work and receptors that I think Ray Peat has said are unreliable in good science? It seems unlikely to me that ketones act the same as fatty acids generally with respect to serotonin, since testosterone and progesterone are ketones.
For me, excess serotonin is associated with an immotile gut, and MCT noticeably improves gut motility.
Generative Energy + Haidut #3: A Bioenergetic View of Weight Loss
Well Haidut, if your willing, could you give me some feedback on my latest post in my log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6584&p=106012#p106012
My log has my history of my health issues and blood tests, but generally I'm a 27 year old male trying to raise Testosterone and lower Estrogen and Prolactin.
I would greatly appreciate it if you could give me any thoughts, suggestions or feedback you might have about my latest bloodwork and my prospective protocol.
I plan to keep getting bloodwork done every couple months until I find a protocol that works, so I will at least be contributing my N=1 experiment data.
haidut said:
Well Haidut, if your willing, could you give me some feedback on my latest post in my log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6584&p=106012#p106012
My log has my history of my health issues and blood tests, but generally I'm a 27 year old male trying to raise Testosterone and lower Estrogen and Prolactin.
I would greatly appreciate it if you could give me any thoughts, suggestions or feedback you might have about my latest bloodwork and my prospective protocol.
I plan to keep getting bloodwork done every couple months until I find a protocol that works, so I will at least be contributing my N=1 experiment data.
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Generative Energy + Haidut #3: A Bioenergetic View of Weight Loss
Are you a bodybuilder? Why are you taking clomid or tamoxifen? Do you know how estrogenic they are? Peat's website has articles on both. They are both synthetic estrogens with slightly modified function to make them somewhat anti-estrogenic in specific tissues but overall they are still synthetic estrogens. Clomid is highly estrogenic to brain and bones, do not get fooled by studies showing it can increase T. People with MS, a brain condition from high estrogen, have died from taking clomid. Both clomid and tamofixen will fry your liver, as they are both estrogens. Exemestane is probably OK, but not until you figure the issue with prolactin.
High prolactin, in the absense or pituitary issues or hypothyroidism, can be caused by liver and/or kidney issues. Your results show potential issues with both (creatinine and ALT). I would do a full liver panel with ALT, AST, ALP, GGT, PT, and albumin. I would also stop taking whatever drugs you are taking and lower protein intake to no more than 1g/kg daily. Your kidneys need so rest and recover. I am surprised your doctor has not said anything about kidneys and/or liver issues and suggested follow up. I would strongly suggest following up with him/her on these tests.
Finally, since RBC and Hematocrit are also high (probably due to high T) I would do an iron panel just in case. Serum iron, ferritin, iron saturation, transferrin, copper, ceruloplasmin. Liver and kidney issues can both be caused by iron and in some cases even copper.
Just my 2c.
franko said:
Are you a bodybuilder? Why are you taking clomid or tamoxifen? Do you know how estrogenic they are? Peat's website has articles on both. They are both synthetic estrogens with slightly modified function to make them somewhat anti-estrogenic in specific tissues but overall they are still synthetic estrogens. Clomid is highly estrogenic to brain and bones, do not get fooled by studies showing it can increase T. People with MS, a brain condition from high estrogen, have died from taking clomid. Both clomid and tamofixen will fry your liver, as they are both estrogens. Exemestane is probably OK, but not until you figure the issue with prolactin.
High prolactin, in the absense or pituitary issues or hypothyroidism, can be caused by liver and/or kidney issues. Your results show potential issues with both (creatinine and ALT). I would do a full liver panel with ALT, AST, ALP, GGT, PT, and albumin. I would also stop taking whatever drugs you are taking and lower protein intake to no more than 1g/kg daily. Your kidneys need so rest and recover. I am surprised your doctor has not said anything about kidneys and/or liver issues and suggested follow up. I would strongly suggest following up with him/her on these tests.
Finally, since RBC and Hematocrit are also high (probably due to high T) I would do an iron panel just in case. Serum iron, ferritin, iron saturation, transferrin, copper, ceruloplasmin. Liver and kidney issues can both be caused by iron and in some cases even copper.
Just my 2c.
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frankfranks
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Generative Energy + Haidut #3: A Bioenergetic View of Weight Loss
In a lot of Asia I think there's been a pattern where historically white rice was an expensive food for the elite. The masses subsisted mostly on sweet potato variants and other grains. But now white rice is cheap, so it's extensively consumed mostly on account of historical class considerations.
For the related American context: oysters and lobsters were foods of poverty for most of American history. Those who could afford beef and dairy wouldn't resort to oysters.
In a lot of Asia I think there's been a pattern where historically white rice was an expensive food for the elite. The masses subsisted mostly on sweet potato variants and other grains. But now white rice is cheap, so it's extensively consumed mostly on account of historical class considerations.
For the related American context: oysters and lobsters were foods of poverty for most of American history. Those who could afford beef and dairy wouldn't resort to oysters.
Generative Energy + Haidut #3: A Bioenergetic View of Weight Loss
Haidut, I didn't want to totally hijack this thread so I posted my reply here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6584&p=106031#p106031
haidut said:
Haidut, I didn't want to totally hijack this thread so I posted my reply here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6584&p=106031#p106031
Generative Energy + Haidut #3: A Bioenergetic View of Weight Loss
I responded over there, thanks.
franko said:
I responded over there, thanks.
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Generative Energy + Haidut #3: A Bioenergetic View of Weight Loss
Japanese lifestyle may contribute to it. They live like robots.Work work and work is their only interest
Imagination and exploratory mindset can have an impact on health.
tara said:
Japanese lifestyle may contribute to it. They live like robots.Work work and work is their only interest
Imagination and exploratory mindset can have an impact on health.
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Generative Energy + Haidut #3: A Bioenergetic View of Weight Loss
I think the work mindset in Japan is overstated/a misrepresentation of the culture, I know several Americans who have lived there and they say the same
lexis said:
I think the work mindset in Japan is overstated/a misrepresentation of the culture, I know several Americans who have lived there and they say the same
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SQu
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Generative Energy + Haidut #3: A Bioenergetic View of Weight Loss
Long term? Looking for reasons why my liver's not great. Was put on Clomid at 17, high dose, 1 maybe 2 months.
haidut said:
Long term? Looking for reasons why my liver's not great. Was put on Clomid at 17, high dose, 1 maybe 2 months.
Generative Energy + Haidut #3: A Bioenergetic View of Weight Loss
Any term. Both of them are synthetic estrogens. Seriously, why would anyone consider taking something known to be a liver carcinogen (as all estrogens are)? Again, do not get fooled by the fact that clomid and tamofixen seem to act like anti-estrogens in some tissues. Their systemic effects is still highly estrogenic, so even if they raise testosterone in a male that extra testosterone will likely convert into estrogen anyways. Women taking clomid or tamoxifen have 11 times higher chance of endometrial cancer. How's that for a supposedly anti-estrogenic drug?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1672563
"...However, paradoxically, tamoxifen alone enhanced the appearance of gamma-glutamyl transpeptidase positive foci in diethylnitrosamine-initiated livers indicating that it is a promoter of hepatocarcinogenesis."
SQu said:
Any term. Both of them are synthetic estrogens. Seriously, why would anyone consider taking something known to be a liver carcinogen (as all estrogens are)? Again, do not get fooled by the fact that clomid and tamofixen seem to act like anti-estrogens in some tissues. Their systemic effects is still highly estrogenic, so even if they raise testosterone in a male that extra testosterone will likely convert into estrogen anyways. Women taking clomid or tamoxifen have 11 times higher chance of endometrial cancer. How's that for a supposedly anti-estrogenic drug?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1672563
"...However, paradoxically, tamoxifen alone enhanced the appearance of gamma-glutamyl transpeptidase positive foci in diethylnitrosamine-initiated livers indicating that it is a promoter of hepatocarcinogenesis."
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