Generative Energy #12: A Bioenergetic View Of Autoimmunity (with Haidut)

Discussion in 'Generative Energy Podcast' started by Dan Wich, Nov 10, 2015.

  1. Dan Wich

    Dan Wich Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2013
    Messages:
    1,528
    Gender:
    Male
    YouTube version:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veBLg1OwDJw

    Play the audio from a web page, or download an MP3
    http://www.generativeenergy.com/main/episode12

    Subscribe in a podcasts app
    Use iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/gen ... 57763?mt=2
    Or enter the feed URL directly into your app: http://www.generativeenergy.com/main?format=RSS


    Great episode so far, which goes without saying. And for those who haven't seen the other post, Haidut has a new supplement for skin issues:
    viewtopic.php?p=108791
     
  2. narouz

    narouz Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2012
    Messages:
    4,429
    Generative Energy + Haidut #6: A Bioenergetic View of Autoimmunity

    Thanks, Dan!
     
  3. messtafarian

    messtafarian Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2013
    Messages:
    814
    Generative Energy + Haidut #6: A Bioenergetic View of Autoimmunity

    Hey can I ask a question here about this material?

    Haidut -- I'm getting another round of antibiotics now that I've convinced the medicos that I probably have a gut infection. But they want me to take probiotics while I take these antibiotics and afterwards so that I don't get c. diff. The theory is that antibiotics kill all the "good" bacteria and give c diff a chance to colonize and take over the "good" bacteria, so the bacteria is "replaced" to fight the c. diff.

    For some reason C. Diff is incredibly hard to kill, except with Flagyl which is really toxic. Is there an alternative in this sort of rare case of contraction of a specific pathogen ( besides a fecal transplant, which is in a way the same thing) ?
     
  4. narouz

    narouz Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2012
    Messages:
    4,429
    Generative Energy + Haidut #6: A Bioenergetic View of Autoimmunity

    Not haidut but,
    I would avoid Flagyl at (almost) all costs, mess.
    I took it some years back.
    Worst thing was psychological/mood effect: very depressing.

    So, short of a fecal transplant,
    certain probiotics do seem very promising/legitimate in combating c. diff.
    Off the top of my head (I can never keep the spellings straight)
    the strains I've read about being effective are, I think, s. boulardi, L. rhamnosus GG, and l. reuteri.

    I started a thread about a year ago on this topic.
    Something never was quite right about my gut after all the antibiotics I got for my appendectomy,
    and then with my Peat antibiotic dabblings.
    Coated tongue became the norm.
    I can say from experience that the probiotics I've experimented with
    gave me a very clean tongue--probably one of those three I noted above, or one called b. coagulans.
    The thread I started back then was on the specific topic
    of how there seems to be a blank area in PeatWorld when it comes to
    how to proceed after taking antibiotics.
    In PeatDom, I guess you don't do anything special:
    just enjoy your sparking clean gut!
    That's great if it works for you,
    and it would seem that it does for a lot of people.
    With me though...I had problems.
    One theory I have is that those without their appendixes may have trouble....
     
  5. messtafarian

    messtafarian Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2013
    Messages:
    814
    Generative Energy + Haidut #6: A Bioenergetic View of Autoimmunity

    In this case, with the flagyl -- I'm accepting it for a specific purpose, which is that I think I have some kind of anaerobic infection. I have had scary/freaky/insane neurological stuff happening to me for almost a year. A year in December. This started with one of the worst "stomach flu" experiences of my life, advanced to either meningitis or encephalopathy, hot flashes, endless weird stomach things and almost constant diarrhea. Then, when i went into the hospital i was put on intravenous flagyl and another drug called aztreonam which has bacteriostatic properties like penicillin, which I can't take.

    When I talked to the gallbladder surgeon, he told me that gallbladder would not cause the level of gut distress I am experiencing, which I am not so sure about but --

    I am still not well, and the neuro symptoms and gut symptoms are not gone, but they're *better* -- which is giving me hope that another week of flagyl might (oh please oh please) knock it out altogether. If what the GB surgeon said is true, that having an infected gallbladder wasn't causing my problems, then four days of absolutely no food and a heavy course of two broad spectrum antibiotics is what made it better. I am guessing/betting that since *other* antibiotics like cipro and doxycyline had no effect on any of my symptoms then the magic card might be flagyl for some kind of anaerobic abscess or deep gut infection.

    Man that would be great if it's true.

    I think you're right about not having an appendix. from what I've read the appendix is the backup microbiota supply station and microflora are just a little off afterwards. If that's the case then you probably did exactly the right thing ( Peat would say) staying away from any lactobacilli. I actually did enjoy a sparkling clean gut for about 48 hours but the problem is you can't stay on antibiotics forever.
     
  6. Derek

    Derek Guest

    Generative Energy + Haidut #6: A Bioenergetic View of Autoimmunity

    The three probiotics that I have heard have the best success in controlling/eradicating C. Diff are: Saccharomyces Boulardii, Bacillus Coagulans and Bacillus Subtilis. The latter two are spore formers, like C. Diff so they are competitive to C. Diff.

    Flagyl is very toxic and I see you also took ciprofloxacin. I don't know if you're aware but cipro is a quinolone combined with fluoride. It's also one of the antibiotics most likely to cause C. Diff as well as serious neurological issues!
     
  7. messtafarian

    messtafarian Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2013
    Messages:
    814
    Generative Energy + Haidut #6: A Bioenergetic View of Autoimmunity

    Yeah, I took cipro and levaquin last december. I'm not sure how much this had to do with my complete health crash but I would not ever touch it again. I had flagyl in the hospital though with no problem. The real problem is with flagyl is that there are no other antibiotics that can do what it can do. There are a lot of bacteria that like anaerobic environments and just won't respond to anything else.
     
  8. supercoolguy

    supercoolguy Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2015
    Messages:
    80
    Generative Energy + Haidut #6: A Bioenergetic View of Autoimmunity

    Minute 26 starts to discuss "Pro-Biotics" not beneficial, Im thinking: Are the Lacto Cultures producing Lactic Acid causing the problems associated? (Not mentioned in this segment)
     
  9. messtafarian

    messtafarian Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2013
    Messages:
    814
    Generative Energy + Haidut #6: A Bioenergetic View of Autoimmunity

    I'm not sure where I read it but there's a recent theory floating around that lupus is actually some kind of reaction to lactobacilli.
     
  10. lexis

    lexis Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2014
    Messages:
    420
    Generative Energy + Haidut #6: A Bioenergetic View of Autoimmunity

    There was a lot of mention about estrogen and cortisol.But nothing much about adrenalin. Can a person have normal blood pressure and high adrenalin
     
  11. Mr Rossi

    Mr Rossi Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2015
    Messages:
    106
    Where can I find the correlation between Lactobacillus and Lupus?
    I searched the internet but I find nothing about it. Even rather the opposite.
    Haidut mentioned it at 26:35.
     
  12. HDD

    HDD Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,013
    Here is one of the places Ray Peat mentions it:

    http://www.toxinless.com/ray-peat-the-bean-syndrome.pdf

    "The variations in the post-influenza syndromes are very likely influenced by the nature of the bacteria or foods which are present, chronically or at the time of an uncompensated stress or inflammatory disease. K.M. Stevens( 9) has argued that while rheumatic fever and glomerulonephritis are caused by the antigens of streptocci, systemic lupus erythematosis (SLE) is probably caused by the antigens of grampositive lactobacilli found in the normal flora.

    Migraine, SLE, CFS, thyroid problems, and some kinds of porphyria seem to be more common in women of reproductive age, and are often exacerbated by premenstrual hormone changes. According to Stevens, "SLE is almost entirely a disease of women of child-bearing age. One possibility for this selection could be that women during this period harbour a peculiar flora. This is indeed the case; large numbers of gram-positive lactobacilli are present in the vagina only during the thirty-odd years when regular menstrual activity is present." In 1974, I noticed that I consistently got a migraine headache after drinking a lactobacillus milk product, and stopped using (and recommending) yogurt and other lactobacillus foods, though I suspected it was the lactic acid which caused the symptoms. I still consider lactic acid to be a metabolic burden, especially when combined with an estrogen excess, but Stevens' main point, about the significance of our immunological response to systemic bacterial antigens, deserves more attention."
     
  13. Mr Rossi

    Mr Rossi Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2015
    Messages:
    106
    I have some other questions to haidut.

    27:33 - A sterile intestine and autoimmunity
    Haidut said:"I don't know that there has been a single case of a baby (they have mostly sterile gut) having an autoimmune condition."

    I found an autoimmune condition in newborns. Neonatal and Pediatric Lupus Erythematosus.
    http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1006582-overview

    The immune system of babies is not fully developed. Perhaps that is the reason why there are fewer autoimmune diseases in babies.​


    "There are studies on adult animals with sterile gut (almost no bacteria). These animals are remarkbly resilient to things like endotoxamic shock and the development of autoimmune condition."

    How these animals digest their food with almost no bacteria?
    I thought the bacteria are necessary for digestion.
    What do you think about it?​
     
  14. lexis

    lexis Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2014
    Messages:
    420
  15. dd99

    dd99 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2014
    Messages:
    434
Loading...