Gelatin/collagen = endotoxin reaction?

[aniciete]

After starting back up on gelatin, I’ve developed red eyes, itchy scalp, nausea and diarrhea. Could this be an endotoxin reaction? I’ve felt horrible the last couple mornings and my sleep has been bad. On top of this my tongue is now coated.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

After starting back up on gelatin, I’ve developed red eyes, itchy scalp, nausea and diarrhea. Could this be an endotoxin reaction? I’ve felt horrible the last couple mornings and my sleep has been bad. On top of this my tongue is now coated.

Are you having it in coffee with sugar? Sugar and caffeine are natural antihistamines, and powdered gelatin is high in histamines.

 

[aniciete]

Are you having it in coffee with sugar? Sugar and caffeine are natural antihistamines, and powdered gelatin is high in histamines.

Yes lots of milk coffee and maple syrup. When I have histamine reactions, I usually get a red/puffy face. With this, my scalp itches and I developed tiny red pimples on my neck. I dug this chart back up and I’m thinking the fluoride could a be big issue.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Yes lots of milk coffee and maple syrup. When I have histamine reactions, I usually get a red/puffy face. With this, my scalp itches and I developed tiny red pimples on my neck. I dug this chart back up and I’m thinking the fluoride could a be big issue.

The green can is higher in heavy metals than the gelatin orange can. You posted that chart in another thread.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I have been alternating homemade short cooked gelatinous bone broth in several days a week to minimize having to use the powdered stuff.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I have been alternating in homemade short cooked gelatinous bone broths several days a week to minimize having to use the powdered stuff. The calcium in dairy helps tremendously with the heavy metals.

 

[aniciete]

I have been alternating homemade short cooked gelatinous bone broth in several days a week to minimize having to use the powdered stuff.

I think that’s probably the best option, the fresher the better. I’m gonna stop powdered gelatin and then introduce homemade broths. Hopefully these symptoms subside soon.

 

[UG Krishnamurti]

I have similar problem and a bad response to gelatin. I don't have it when I make it myself.

Someone from the forum said: "It doesn't matter what the animals were fed. Gelatin is generally made from the skin of the animals. Decaying skin is an ideal environment for gram negative bacteria, and so all gelatin products are going to contain a significant amount of endotoxin, even if the animals were fed organic grass, and roamed freely under the open sky."
Q: Can the gelatin be boiled and endotoxins reduced this way?
FORUM: No, endotoxin is heat stable.

I also think that he said that chicken feet could bypass these problems.

Impact of Endotoxins in Gelatine Hydrogels on Chondrogenic Differentiation and Inflammatory Cytokine Secretion In Vitro

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

…

I have similar problem and a bad response to gelatin. I don't have it when I make it myself.

Someone from the forum said: "It doesn't matter what the animals were fed. Gelatin is generally made from the skin of the animals. Decaying skin is an ideal environment for gram negative bacteria, and so all gelatin products are going to contain a significant amount of endotoxin, even if the animals were fed organic grass, and roamed freely under the open sky."
Q: Can the gelatin be boiled and endotoxins reduced this way?
FORUM: No, endotoxin is heat stable.

I also think that he said that chicken feet could bypass these problems.

Impact of Endotoxins in Gelatine Hydrogels on Chondrogenic Differentiation and Inflammatory Cytokine Secretion In Vitro

Ray Peat himself said he uses the Great Lakes gelatin.

Asked about Great Lakes gelatin Ray Peat says....

"Yeah that's a good one I use a lot."

 

[GenericName86]

Just to add my own experience that while I never had any unpleasant reaction to using gelatin (great lakes red can) I've noticed much more positive benefits from using bone broth rather then powdered gelatin.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Just to add my own experience that while I never had any unpleasant reaction to using gelatin (great lakes red can) I've noticed much more positive benefits from using bone broth rather then powdered gelatin.

Same here. I don’t notice anything particular from fresh or the canned, good or bad. What positive things with the fresh do you notice?

 

[TheSir]

I recently tried taking a spoonful of powdered pig gelatin with every meal. It made me anxious and ill within the first two days, which I knew to be an endotoxin reaction. Interestingly, once the toxic load began to diminish, a profound sense of peace and wellbeing engulfed me. So clearly large doses of gelatin can have a tremendous positive impact, given that one finds a pure way to consume it.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I recently tried taking a spoonful of powdered pig gelatin with every meal. It made me anxious and ill within the first two days, which I knew to be an endotoxin reaction. Interestingly, once the toxic load began to diminish, a profound sense of peace and wellbeing engulfed me. So clearly large doses of gelatin can have a tremendous positive impact, given that one finds a pure way to consume it.

Why pig gelatin and not something like grass fed beef gelatin? I would think just being pig would be problematic for several reasons.

 

[schultz]

I doubt consuming endotoxin does anything noticeable. The stuff is ubiquitous. We have significantly more of it in our GI tract than we would get from a few TBSP of powdered gelatin. Also, it would have to make it through the intestinal wall. Anyway, I think lots of it would be washed away during processing.

I think powdered gelatin has the potential to cause a bit of digestive upset though. I never looked into why, but maybe some people don't digest it well and some of it feeds bacteria? A friend gave me some glycine powder. That stuff upset my intestine tremendously and I ended up throwing it away.

I get my gelatin from pork skin currently. The skin is super cheap and has almost no fat on it. I boil it in the pressure cooker for 20 minutes then put it in the fridge so that it gets cold. Once it's cold you can scrape off any excess fat. Then I put it in the dehydrator for 12 hours or so. Once it is dry I break it into little pieces (approx 1cm square) and then deep fry it in coconut oil. It puffs up in about 10 seconds. My favourite seasonings so far are cinnamon and sugar and this garlic bread blend I found that has romano cheese, salt, garlic powder, pepper, scallions, basil, parsley. You can also use just salt, or salt and pepper.

Some notes: If there is fat left on the dry skin then it doesn't puff up properly. The longer you boil the skin the thinner it gets and the more fat it seems to absorb when being deep fried. I've tried several different times and will weigh the dry skin before frying and then weigh it again after it's fried to see how much oil was added.

 

[shine]

Gelatin is often high in endotoxin, so it is not surprising that you are experiencing these symptoms. I use a collagen brand that does not have the typical cow stable smell and taste and seems very pure. Maybe try different brands.

 

[GenericName86]

Same here. I don’t notice anything particular from fresh or the canned, good or bad. What positive things with the fresh do you notice?

The biggest one is gut health, my digestion feels much better. Other noticeable benefits for me is my skin looks better and joints feel stronger. The canned gelatin helps but I just notice an extra "boost" from broth.

 

[Ben.]

Only positive experience as of yet with bovine gelatine. Ever since my health declined heavily wounds take forever to heal. Glycine + gelatine realy seem to help make that happen faster again. Vitamin c doesn't.

I am more concerned it feeding the wrong bacteria and causing more ammonia etc. But that would mean there is already a liver issue or something like that causing issues.

Bone Broth however gives me a overall wellbeing sensation that gelatin doesnt ... but fluoride and heavy metals leeching from the bones realy is a offputting thought. ITs also way more expensive and making it oneself just takes way to much time.

 

[TheSir]

Why pig gelatin and not something like grass fed beef gelatin? I would think just being pig would be problematic for several reasons.

I would prefer that too. Even the local hypermarkets regardless of the chain have only this one same gelatin product available.

 

[schultz]

Oral Administration of Lipopolysaccharides for the Prevention of Various Diseases: Benefit and Usefulness

It is well known that intravenous administration of lipopolysaccharide (LPS) induces severe toxicity in mammals. The maximum tolerated dose of intravenous administration of LPS in humans is reported to be only 1 to 4 ng/kg body weight. However, oral administration of a high dose of LPS caused no...

ar.iiarjournals.org

"Oral administration of LPS demonstrates completely different results when compared to parenteral administration. Oketani et al. stated that oral administration of LPS is not harmful to animals. Schryvers et al. found no evidence of LPS toxicity with 20 μg/ml intake after 40 days in mice. Illyés et al. reported that repeated oral administration of high doses of Escherichia coli LPS had no demonstrable effect on small intestinal structure and cell proliferation in rats. We found that high doses of single oral administration of Pantoea agglomerans LPS (600 mg/kg) had no side-effects in rats. Moreover, oral administration of 300 mg/kg of this LPS, which was almost 30,000 times more than the recommended amount of LPS (10 μg/kg) in animals (human, chicken and fish), for 28 days showed no evidence of hepatotoxicity, nephrotoxicity, inflammation, or weight decrease in rats. These findings demonstrate that oral administrations of LPS are quite safe for animals."


Some papers even suggest it can be beneficial when consumed...

Oral administration of lipopolysaccharides for the prevention of various diseases: benefit and usefulness - PubMed

It is well known that intravenous administration of lipopolysaccharide (LPS) induces severe toxicity in mammals. The maximum tolerated dose of intravenous administration of LPS in humans is reported to be only 1 to 4 ng/kg body weight. However, oral administration of a high dose of LPS caused no...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Moreover, several experiments have reported that oral administration of LPS had preventative and curative properties against various diseases, including allergic, and lifestyle-related diseases."

Ray has mentioned that a little bit of endotoxin is a positive thing (since we live in a world with bacteria).

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I would prefer that too. Even the local hypermarkets regardless of the chain have only this one same gelatin product available.

Ohhh….