Gelatin And Endotoxins?

Discussion in 'Broth, Stocks' started by taylor108, Oct 31, 2014.

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  1. taylor108

    taylor108 Member

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    Sorry if this has been posted about before, but I have been reading some people saying that the endotoxins in powdered gelatin can mess with your thyroid and possibly cause weight gain. I've been using Knox and don't really have access to Great Lakes-should I just not take gelatin at all? Is Knox worth any good at all?
     
  2. johns74

    johns74 Member

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    I think Great Lakes would have endotoxin too. I think gelatinous cuts, such as shank, won't have it.
     
  3. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

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    You could try glycine and see whether it treats you any better.
     
  4. juanitacarlos

    juanitacarlos Member

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    I personally don't seem to have any issues with Great Lakes collagen. I use it daily because of some gut issues/inflammation and I have lost 15kgs this year so it has not affected weight loss for me. I do think broth is better (especially for the gut) but I am busy/lazy and could not be bothered cooking it. I think it's best to monitor your reactions to it and don't use it if it affects you negatively.
     
  5. Peatri Dish

    Peatri Dish Member

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    Yes! I was stunned by this. I feel like gelatin is soothing to the gut. What symptoms would one look for to suggest endotoxins? RP says that an adult could consume a good portion of their protein in gelatin in his article on gelatin. This endotoxin/gelatin idea is new to me, so I would love more info!
     
  6. johns74

    johns74 Member

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    Right, but gelatin isn't necessarily the same thing as gelatin powder, there are also gelatinous cuts such as shank and oxtail, i.e., there are sources of gelatin that aren't gelatin powder. But people have positive experiences with even gelatin powder. People who happen to have bad experiences sometimes believe it's endotoxin, because cowhides and pig skin have bacteria. When they're killed, the bacteria is dead but the endotoxin which is part of the bacteria isn't removed as far as we know. So that could theoretically cause trouble in people who absorb it.
     
  7. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    Interesting comment from treelady's thread:

    viewtopic.php?f=52&t=5125

    I wonder if simmering it would lower the endotoxin load?
     
  8. loess

    loess Member

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    I haven't seen any talk of this so I might as well share what I do...I started filtering my milk+gelatin combo through a mesh strainer bag before drinking it, just like I do with my OJ. Haven't had any digestive or significant endotoxin problems whatsoever doing this with gelatin (have used Great Lakes red can, Vital Proteins, and am currently using the gelatin from Bulkfoods.com). My reasoning for filtering it is that sometimes when you're in a hurry and you don't let the gelatin fully bloom in your milk/water/OJ/whatever liquid you're using, it can get clumpy. So even after heating and dissolving most of it, sometimes you'll end up with some particles or clumps that don't get dissolved. It's easy to overlook them. I don't know if this is true or not, but it seems like those could potentially be attractive to bacteria in the gut; thus another potential mechanism for raising your endotoxin load.

    I still prefer to balance my powdered gelatin intake with a regular routine of making homemade bone broth, but that fluctuates depending on my access to quality bones.
     
  9. dd99

    dd99 Member

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    ttramone, how much do you take each day on average?
     
  10. Zachs

    Zachs Member

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    This is a really odd topic because there is so much literature on the positives of glycine/gelatin supplementation. Recently a MD named Joel Brine(?) wrote a 4 part blog post over at 180degreehealth.com talking all about the positives of supplementation.

    Its understandable that there would be endotoxins from the skin of dead animals, especially from pigs. I wonder though how much filtering some forms of gelatin powder go through. The only study that talks about endotoxins in gelatin does not specify what they are using.

    Personally i only use Great Lake CH from bovine and i have had zero issues with digestion while using it. On the contrary i have much less inflammation and much quicker recovery. My gut is far from perfect, in the past i had horrible IBS from a animal product heavy diet.
     
  11. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

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    From what I gather Ray Peat talked originally about glycine and gelatinous cuts, then talked about gelatin as a good substitute for those cuts.
     
  12. Zachs

    Zachs Member

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    Glycine supplementation might be the safest route for someone who doesnt eat gelatinous meat or bone broth for whatever reason.
     
  13. jyb

    jyb Member

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    But why would a glycine supplement be less contaminated than a gelatin one?
     
  14. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

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    Because you can select a high purity source, as well as the manufacturing process:

    Glycine was discovered in 1820, by Henri Braconnot who boiled a gelatinous object with sulfuric acid.[5]

    Glycine is manufactured industrially by treating chloroacetic acid with ammonia:[6]

    ClCH2COOH + 2 NH3 → H2NCH2COOH + NH4Cl
    About 15 million kg are produced annually in this way.[7]

    In the USA (by GEO Specialty Chemicals, Inc.) and in Japan (by Showa Denko KK), glycine is produced via the Strecker amino acid synthesis.[8][9]

    There are two producers of glycine in the United States: Chattem Chemicals, Inc., a subsidiary of Mumbai-based Sun Pharmaceutical, and GEO Specialty Chemicals, Inc., which purchased the glycine and naphthalene sulfonate production facilities of Hampshire Chemical Corp, a subsidiary of Dow Chemical.[8][10]

    Chattem's manufacturing process ("MCA" process) occurs in batches and results in a finished product with some residual chloride but no sulfate, while GEO’s manufacturing process is considered a semi-batch process and results in a finished product with some residual sulfate but no chloride.


    Certainly however, most of those research papers complained about product destined to laboratories, so your point is valid.
     
  15. juanitacarlos

    juanitacarlos Member

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    Probably about 15 - 20g daily. I have about 5g each time I have a coffee, and sometimes in juice.
     
  16. tara

    tara Member

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    What levels of contamination were they talking about?

    Hypothetically, if I had half a kilo of endotoxin producing bacteria in my gut, or even just 50g or so, and normal to slightly sluggish transit, and I ate 100g (more than I ever eat) of the worst endotoxin-contaminated gelatin that anyone's studied so far, how much difference will it make to the level of endotoxin in my gut, available for attempted invasion through my gut lining?

    This is a genuine question. I don't know the amounts or proportions of endotoxin in gelatin, or in my non-gelatin intestine, and I wonder if the difference would be significant or trivial.

    If I'm having surgery I'm going to want to be pretty fussy about what is inserted. But what goes in my mouth doesn't have to be that clean.
     
  17. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

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    I think we are much better off going by feel. But I think in that collagen it was quite substancial, by intravenous standards.
     
  18. tara

    tara Member

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    Intravenous standards should be much higher than oral standards, on all sorts of factors.
    I think you are right about going by feel, when you can tell.

    My guess is that my normal intestinal LPS production would drown any from supplemental gelatine. But if anyone does the maths and can show that it's more than this, I'd be interested.
     
  19. dd99

    dd99 Member

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    Thanks, ttramone!
     
  20. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

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    I think the standards, when they exist, are based on the treshold for causing an inflammation, so very possible to "feel" it subjectively.
     
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