Full Hydrogenation

[schultz]

I was a little suspicious of the 92° coconut oil for a bit, thinking that maybe it was partially hydrogenated. There is surprisingly very little information on the internet about it.

Wikipedia says...

The melting point of hydrogenated coconut oil is 36–40 °C (97–104 °F).

and also said...

Coconut oil contains only 6% monounsaturated and 2% polyunsaturated fatty acids. In the partial hydrogenation process, some of these are transformed into trans fatty acids.

However the source they cite doesn't talk about hydrogenation of coconut oil, but about hydrogenation of oil in general.

The textbook "Reducing Saturated Fats in Foods (Woodhead Publishing Series in Food Science, Technology and Nutrition)" has some information on hydrogenation and says this about coconut oil...

Indeed, the very high level of saturates in coconut oil is such that it is very rare to partially hydrogenate coconut oil. It is more usual to hydrogenate to complete saturation. This gives a fat with a melting point of about 32°C. Coconut oil is the only common vegetable oil that can be fully hydrogenated and still melt below mouth temperature.

The reason it can melt below mouth temperature is because it has a lot of short chain saturated fats, whereas palm kernel oil can be hydrogenated to a higher melting point because it has more long chain saturated fats...

Palm kernel oil has also been hydrogenated, both partially (to melting points of 32–38°C, often also described by their melting points in degrees Fahrenheit as HPKO90 and HPKO95) and fully hydrogenated to a melting point of 41–42°C.

The book acknowledges that...

Although fully hydrogenated coconut oil and palm kernel oil contain virtually no trans fatty acids, their use has been limited in recent years simply because of the need to still label them as ‘hydrogenated’.

also, the other source that I mentioned earlier from the wikipedia page says this...

Some consumers have become vigilant in looking at the ingredients list; unfortunately, loose media reporting around this topic has caused confusion, and many people do not realise that they should be looking to avoid partially hydrogenated fat, rather than fully hydrogenated fat which, by definition, contains only very low levels of trans fatty acids (less than 1%). (Complete hydrogenation of a fatty acid yields a saturate as all the double bonds between the carbon atoms become saturated with hydrogen.)

32° Celsius for you yanks is about 90° Fahrenheit
41-42° Celsius, the number given for fully hydrogenated palm kernel oil, is 105.8-107.6° wow!

I hope you guys find that as interesting as I apparently do...

 

[BingDing]

LOL, I do find it pretty interesting. Good research. So have you concluded the 92 degree oil is OK?

 

[schultz]

LOL, I do find it pretty interesting. Good research. So have you concluded the 92 degree oil is OK?

Haha, well, I seem to be constantly suspicious of things now...

Sometimes I feel like I am over-thinking things, but I guess that's what this forum is for... discussion.

But, I'm okay eating it until someone gives me a reason not to.

 

[oxidation_is_normal]

Any idea what the test is for full hydration? Or rather, how you would test for trans-fats? How does their hydration process stop and detect full hydration - or did they calculate hydrogen exposure to the fat based on some chemistry formula that I do not know...

 

[BingDing]

The iodine absorption test is the classic way to grade saturation of fatty acids, a google search turns up plenty. As far as I understand it, iodine saturates PUFAs (and other unsaturated molecules, probably) at room temperature and sea level pressure.

Which begs the question of why not use iodine to saturate PUFAs. Probably because we would OD on iodine, I guess.

 

[janus]

I still wonder why even fully-hydrogenated oil would be preferable to MCT oil, which is free from the long-chain SFAs as well as the PUFAs.

 

[janus]

Which begs the question of why not use iodine to saturate PUFAs.

Does this work? As in, in an iodine saturation test, is the double-bond altered upon the reaction of iodine with PUFA? I couldn't find much.

 

[BingDing]

Yes, the iodine takes the place of a hydrogen. Googling on iodine number or iodine value gets lots of hits, such as

Alternate title: iodine number

iodine value, also called Iodine Number, in analytical chemistry, measure of the degree of unsaturation of an oil, fat, or wax; the amount of iodine, in grams, that is taken up by 100 grams of the oil, fat, or wax. Saturated oils, fats, and waxes take up no iodine; therefore their iodine value is zero; but unsaturated oils, fats, and waxes take up iodine. (Unsaturated compounds contain molecules with double or triple bonds, which are very reactive toward iodine.)

 

[oxidation_is_normal]

Has anyone found a study showing how a high-PUFA diet performs with and without iodine?
How does one measure their iodine levels (especially in the thyroid itself)? Sounds difficult...
"In normal rats maintained on an adequate iodine intake, the iodine
concentration in the thyroid gland is about 10,000 times as great as that in
plasma, a finding that illustrates the remarkable iodine-concentrating
capacity of this tissue" -- From "THE MECHANISM OF IODINE CONCENTRATION BY
THE THYROID GLAND..."
http://www.jbc.org/content/171/1/189.full.pdf

Pretty cool stuff.

From Ray Peat Thyroid interview:

Mary Shomon: What are your thoughts for Graves' disease/hyperthyroidism patients? Should they move ahead quickly to get radioactive iodine treatment, or are there natural things they might be able to try to temporarily - or even permanently - get a remission?

Dr. Ray Peat: Occasionally, a person with a goiter will temporarily become hyperthyroid as the gland releases its colloid stores in a corrective process. Some people enjoy the period of moderate hyperthyroidism, but if they find it uncomfortable or inconvenient, they can usually control it just by eating plenty of liver, and maybe some cole slaw or raw cabbage juice. Propranolol will slow a rapid heart. The effects of a thyroid inhibitor, PTU, propylthiouracil, have been compared to those of thyroidectomy and radioactive iodine. The results of the chemical treatment are better for the patient, but not nearly so profitable for the physician.

Besides a few people who were experiencing the unloading of a goiter, and one man from the mountains of Mexico who became hypermetabolic when he moved to Japan (probably from the sudden increase of iodine in his diet, and maybe from a smaller amount of meat in his diet), all of the people I have seen in recent decades who were called "hyperthyroid" were not. None of the people I have talked to after they had radioiodine treatment were properly studied to determine the nature of their condition. Radioiodine is a foolish medical toy, as far as I can see, and is never a proper treatment.

 

[schultz]

Yes, the iodine takes the place of a hydrogen. Googling on iodine number or iodine value gets lots of hits, such as

Alternate title: iodine number

iodine value, also called Iodine Number, in analytical chemistry, measure of the degree of unsaturation of an oil, fat, or wax; the amount of iodine, in grams, that is taken up by 100 grams of the oil, fat, or wax. Saturated oils, fats, and waxes take up no iodine; therefore their iodine value is zero; but unsaturated oils, fats, and waxes take up iodine. (Unsaturated compounds contain molecules with double or triple bonds, which are very reactive toward iodine.)

I always knew they measured the level of saturation and gave an iodine value, but never really thought about what that meant. Very interesting!

 

[janus]

Yes, the iodine takes the place of a hydrogen. Googling on iodine number or iodine value gets lots of hits, such as

Alternate title: iodine number

iodine value, also called Iodine Number, in analytical chemistry, measure of the degree of unsaturation of an oil, fat, or wax; the amount of iodine, in grams, that is taken up by 100 grams of the oil, fat, or wax. Saturated oils, fats, and waxes take up no iodine; therefore their iodine value is zero; but unsaturated oils, fats, and waxes take up iodine. (Unsaturated compounds contain molecules with double or triple bonds, which are very reactive toward iodine.)

Thanks. I'm especially curious about whether iodine-reacted 'UFAs behave as SFAs in vivo.

 

[tara]

I think iodine requiements are very small, and too much can be a problem. i would guess that iodine-saturated PUFAs would risk providing way too much iodine.

 

[Zachs]

Why eat oils in the first place? I know this isn't on topic but this should be a moot point since all oils are detrimental to overall health with the exception of coconut oil which is nearly 100% saturated anyway.

 

[Spokey]

I'm curious to know what the risks were when comparing a fat to it's iodized equivalent. That seems like information that might have some value or at the very least be interesting.

I know they brominate oils in the US for soft drinks, it's banned in the EU. Presumably the reaction is similar, bromine and iodine both being halogens.

 

[BingDing]

It's not orthorexia if the crap they put in food really is bad for you! Mountain Dew has "brominated vegetable oil", it's sold in millions of stores in the US. It's frickin' crazy.

I couldn't find a definitive answer about iodine and PUFAs, it seems likely that too much iodine would be required to make even Coconut Oil totally hydrogenated. Though AFAIK the chemical reaction is valid.

 

[Such_Saturation]

It's not orthorexia if the crap they put in food really is bad for you!

Oh but it is if they control what orthorexia is

 

[BingDing]

It's not orthorexia if the crap they put in food really is bad for you!

Oh but it is if they control what orthorexia is

The key to unlocking that trap is really simple, define it yourself! It helps if you think that psychiatry is little more than voodoo dressed up to look like science and that the "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders" should be called the "Manual of Describable Behavior and the Fancy Names that Quacks Have Dreamed Up".

 

[Spokey]

I'm totally Napoleon, trapped in the body of a chicken; but it's cool, I'm at peace with it.

 

[schultz]

post 73639 Why eat oils in the first place? I know this isn't on topic but this should be a moot point since all oils are detrimental to overall health with the exception of coconut oil which is nearly 100% saturated anyway.

The reason I was looking for a fully hydrogenated coconut oil was so that I could experiment with a diet containing around 0.5g of PUFA but still have fat in my diet. Other than the fat helping with A,D,E and K absorption, the hydrogenated coconut oil accelerates PUFA depletion and causes a higher production of mead acid by the body. I experimented with a diet under 5g of total fat and I didn't like it so much. I'm being a little OCD but I find it fun.

Anyway, I contacted this company...
http://www.welch-holme-clark.com/
..., and they sell to the public it seems. The smallest size you can order is 5 gallons, but it seems to be the only fully hydrogenated coconut oil I can find. Most of the hydrogenated coconut oils are listed as having a 92 degree melting point and I don't trust that number. The one from WHC has a 101 degree melting point, which puts it in the range of where wikipedia says hydrogenated coconut oil should be (97-104).

I read very interesting studies in regards to HCO compared to a no-fat diet, and it seems superior to the no-fat diet. I will post them later.

 

[Qousimodo]

Just a question. ..how would an oil with a melting point of 101 degrees liquify in the body..would enzymatic breakdown be able to reduce it for absorption? Would this cause a laxative effect?