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Fruits Are A Bad Choice For Most People

  1. Based off of this correspondence with Ray, shared to the Yahoo groups taken from
    Ray Peat Diet, Food Choices, And General Guidelines

    Fruit is a bad choice for most people based on these writings. How is anybody supposed to know if the fruit they buy is tree-ripened unless they grew it themselves? Peaches, plums and apples are climacteric and ripen off the tree but this isn't good enough, they need to be tree-ripened and organic. Some countries don't even grow the safe fruits so even if they were confirmed tree-ripened - importing them is carcinogenic anyway!

    Im not seeing any proof that cooking fruit removes all these negatives. Elsewhere Ray says that if you cook apples they still need to be ripe before hand. So I don't think cooking unripened fruit makes it 'safe' by Peat's standards.

    Maybe if you found frozen fruit that tasted ripe and was organic it would be a good option, but thats been very hard to find in my case. I suppose fruit that is sold frozen is picked and frozen very quickly, so atleast you would know it was tree-ripened? the choices are very small, which is sad. When you consider starch as something potentially harmful (bad bacteria, weight etc) you don't have a lot of choices at all. I'm finding it impossible to hit the 4-5000 calories I need with these restrictions in place.
  2. You seem to be super stressed
  3. True. But he has a point. There aren‘t a lot of fruits that are conductive to good health in the western world.
  4. I draw the line at as long as something has no PUFA and isn't fortified with iron, it is okay to eat as long as it doesn't cause gut problems. Anything more than that is pretty impractical, considering how just avoiding PUFA and iron means you already can't eat 90% of the food out there.
  5. I eat all types of fruits my thyroid is good, my hormonal profile is great, lots of energy, libido and great mood. Excellent digestion. Dunno some people might be sensitive I’m not. My opinion is that people takes rays work like the supreme ultimate law of everything. While not considering that ray might just be discussing some opinions losely of subjects he think is not optimal in our society. The link superstressed posts about rays own words is actually not rays own words it just links to another forum post where people design a diet and put words in rays mouth that this is how he eats. The link in the other thread does not even work anymore. On top of that ray eats most things once in awhile. Even fried chicken wings which is high PUFA. Im all for discussing rays ideas and all that. But when it comes to things like this I just feel super avoiding everything like you will get cancer and die from it is just unhealthy behavior. Humans are living longer than ever before. So if you live a healthy lifestyle that ray suggest you are likely protected. Stressing over not eating fruit or lots of other things in our modern world will likely kill you earlier, give you nutrient deficiencies or like the OP said not enough calories. Just my opinion though. But its a lot of compulsive OCD behavior on these forums but thats alright. Some of the best ideas come from it. But avoiding food specially fruit does not seem to be one
  6. Good rule of thumb :) I basically do that too.
  7. Still, no way I‘m eating the unripe ***t that most of supermarkets sell as fruit.
  8. I wonder why Chimpanzees can consume pounds of figs daily and not suffer from the carcinogenic toxins hidden in the seeds. Apparently they have very low rates of cancer.
  9. Thumbs up
  10. haha, a well-placed pun.

    I agree with you: unless somebody has a very strong gut, any fruit that wasn't properly ripened will cause issues, such as bloating and diarrhea/ constipation. It makes sense, though,as humans would never pick an unripe fruit, because it smells like nothing, or worse, smells toxic, and it's not sweet at all. I think even somebody who reacts badly to commercial apples or mangoes would react at least better to a wild, tree-ripened, organic version of it.

    I didn't notice any improvement with regards to cooking unripe fruit, they still cause me to bloat up.

    I feel like shipping foods is generally problematic, especially plant foods, since it's really anti-natural to do that. Of course, just because something is anti-natural, it doesn't mean it's necessarily bad, but it should make one skeptical about the safety and appropriateness of eating foods that don't even exist normally in your location.

    Ray has mentioned the awful quality of most fruits sold commercially in a response to an email somebody sent him, I believe, so he's aware of how bad things are in very industrialized cities, that's why he says that starch can be prepared correctly as to have less chance of causing issues, although he says ripe fruit is better.

    Hitting 5000 calories a day without eating a lot of fat or a lot of refined sugar is really hard, and considering that fruit is very calorie-poor, even drinking 3 liters of orange juice would only add around 1000 calories, so, unless you have a huge stomach space, fruit would be mostly for minerals and vitamins, although the sugar contribution is very valuable. I would use some refined sugar if I were you, to keep your fructose intake adequate.

    I myself have stopped eating fruits for now and I've been eating the same amount of white sugar as before( 400 grams a day), and I've been noticing great benefits: I no longer have any constipation at all ever, and I have 2 bowel movements a day even without magnesium( I still take magnesium anyway, because it makes me feel better overall). Cypro initially did this for me, but I think I was still ingesting enough inflammatory things to make this effect level off over time. I sleep better now, I seem to have more grip strength, bloating is reduced, gut feels nicer, etc.

    I basically eat a carnivore diet with added sugar, zero fiber, zero fruit. I did increase my fat intake to make up for the calories, since I was getting around 200 grams of carbs from fruits and potatoes.

    I feel like I would do good on very high quality, very ripe fruits, but I just don't have access to that currently, and the regular supermarket fruits aren't really cutting anymore.
  11. Well, monkeys in general also eat a lot of raw vegetation, which is very tough. The digestive tract of monkeys has adapted to harboring a lot of bacteria, and the more bacteria, the thicker the mucous layer on the gut will be, so if even twigs don't bother their gut, some little seeds probably wont either.
  12. I think I could chew down twigs without gut issues hahaha. I never get a bad gut or gut discomfort. Only super high protein intake affects me but it just increases my fart frequency and intensity roflmao.
  13. If you tolerate those foods well, then not much reason to stop eating them. But they do affect many people's guts in a bad way, so it isn't really OCD, it's just that people naturally know if something is being good or bad for them. If they are eating something that is making them feel very bad, then it's only natural to remove it from their diet.

    Yes, Ray emphasizes that people need to think for themselves, so following him very strictly without valuing your own opinion is not the right way.

    I only disagree with you with regards to what you said about Ray eating most things once in a while and when you say that humans are living more than ever. Ray actually, as far as I know, does not eat any starch ever other than the occasional nixtamalized corn and some turnips, and doesn't eat chicken wings fried in soybean oil. As I see it, he cooks them himself, and considering that he said that frying bacon in coconut oil replaces the PUFAs in bacon with the saturated fat from coconuts, he may do something similar with the chicken wings. Also, people nowadays are the sickest of all generations, for what I know, and considering that areas with the least amount of medical interventions, where people live traditionally, house many healthy, long lived people, I think the longevity nowadays being at its peak is debatable.
  14. lol, that's amazing :)

    It means your gut is really healthy.
  15. Yes we are sicker then ever but we are still able to live the longest we have ever. The average life span has increased still and likely will. But quality of life is more important than quantity of life. Youd rather live 70 and be healthy than live to 90 and be sick half your life and treated by pharma. I think with time things will change as in the world will adopt a more ray peat type of view in general. Technology is what keeps us alive today. But we use technology to treat. While if we used our wisdom we could just avoid becoming sick in the first place. Typical humankind to act first (poison the planet) then rethink and try to fix it. Rather than in advance predict the outcome. But yes in general greed is what has ruined most things. Anyway back to subject. Yes i know some people cant eat fruit my GF cant eat any fruits with peel. Likely because of the pectin content. But making a thread stating ”Fruits is bad for most people” is just not contributing to anything. People have to try for themselves and eat what they want rather than having forum posts telling them what to do. Do what works for you. Just thought the original post is counterproductive. Make a thread like”a summary of the possible bad/side effects of fruits/fruit based diet” people miss use the forum to twist subject to fit their own thoughts, experiences and agendas. Its just too much white noise going on and people should be more thoughtful before they make a post IMO.
  16. Thanks
    Yes it is. Im always suprised how I can get away with eating almost anything without experiencing what other people talks about. Im just really lucky i guess.
  17. I thought Ray said that if your fruits were not quite ripe that cooking them would make them more digestible. It is pretty hard, unless you eat locally produced fruit, to get any that is completely ripe, the producers have to pick them under ripe in order to survive the shipping without rotting.
  18. @Rafael Lao Wai What are you eating for that white sugar? I can get it in my diet through iced latte's (or hot if you wish) milk chocolate, a bit of honey with greek yogurt, coke but after that im lost. I cant handle many fluids so it makes it harder. Ice cream is a possible option but fruitless icecream like Hagen Dasz Vanilla is so unappetizing in my opinion
  19. Yea I don't like fruit that much anymore to be honest. I'm convinced that starch, meat, dairy, and fat are the hallmarks to good health, and they were what fueled our brain's expansion to differentiate ourselves to who we are today. Using fruit as a garnish as a dish, such as the tomato, or even consuming apple sauce, is ok, but I've noticed negative health effects from over consumption of fruit. My back becomes extra tight when I overconsume fruit, to the point where I wake up with a sore and tight lower back. This never happens if I'm drinking milk and eating cheese, so I'm certain that the excess fruit does me no good. Fruit also doesn't sufficient energy to last for the next couple hours. Back in my fruitarian experiments, I would have to be eating constantly every hour just to sustain blood sugar. Although that's the abuse of fruit, which isn't fair because any food abused will cause problems. In any matter, fruit is at best used as a desert or snack, but cannot become the main component of the diet, at least if you want to have sufficient energy to work/think/play for hours without having to re-up on energy.
  20. I think it improves them but I dont think it completely makes them act as ripe, he has said that even though you cook apples they should still be ripe, I just emailed him about this, ill share his reply if he chooses to.
  21. I have confirmed SIBO though so according to ray starch should be zero. I think he's right about that.
  22. For sure. I even notice that if my digestion is stressed or constipated, I have no choice but to fast from starch until my stomach can handle it. This always leads to a lowering of strength, energy, and motivation, but at least it doesn't cause inflammation that consuming starch in a physiologically inappropriate state would do. I usually consume eggs, cheese, coffee, milk, sugar, sometimes fruit, etc... in this state, until my stomach is ready to incorporate starch again. It usually doesn't take any longer than 4-10 hours to resolve itself, and while I know some conditions are very complicated, such as Crohns, IBS, SIBO, etc.... I do think that the average hypo individual can handle starch if they just fast for half a day to a day, wait for clear cut hunger to kick in, and then consume an appropriately prepared starch.

    I do think that when you get the SIBO resolved you should find a way to incorporate it back into your diet, perhaps in small amounts, and definitely prepared properly, with fat, protein, salt, etc...
  23. Right now I’m vacationing in Greece and I’m eating a ton of ripe, fresh fruits from markets and local farmers. I feel the best I’ve felt in a long time (although I’m eating way too much). I think as pointed out, ripe is the key with fruits. I know when I get back to Canada it’s back to sup par fruiting
  24. Eating only 90% of your diet fruit has always been madness. Like you said from an evolutionary stand point we would not be who we are today if we only ate fruit. Fire is what unlocked everything. Fruit can only give so much glucose to our brains. Once we learned to make fire and cook starches to make them digestible and unlock all that glucose. Thats when our brain size exploded compared to other animals and it makes sense. Learning to cook meat and starches. Many nutrients get unlocked when cooked/heated. Without cooking we would likely get malnourished accounting for the fact that compared to other animals our brains need 120 grams of glucose per day just for the basic stuff. Fruits is a staple in the diet. But you still have to eat quality meat, quality fats and larger portions of starches. I tend to use sugars more like a supplement. If I do something stressfull I use sugar to block cortisol and i also like extra fructose for cholesterol synthesis. Other than that I go for cooked meats and starches like potatoes, white rice and sweet potato.
  25. Food for Thought: Was Cooking a Pivotal Step in Human Evolution?

    -” Moreover, when humans try to eat more like chimpanzees and other primates, we cannot extract enough calories to live healthily”


    -”Cooking also increases the energy they can get from the food they eat. Starchy potatoes and other tubers, eaten by people across the world, are barely digestible when raw.”


    What u mentioned

    Also this points back to haiduts post about okinawans living so long eating mainly carbohydrate based diet where the potato is a staple. I think a diet mainly of carbs and 120 grams daily protein with some saturated fat is likely optimal for human longevity.
  26. I second using for sugar to block cortisol. The tricky thing is using sugar to block cortisol without it dulling the mind, which is usually what happens if I overdo something like cola or sprite. To avoid this, I'll either put sugar in my apple sauce, sugar in yogurt, sugar in milk, and sugar in tea. The different chemicals available in conjunction with the sugar prevent the mental retardation I can get from drinking just straight cola. I do find straight soda acceptable at times when I've severely depleted my glucose stores, such as if I engage in an intense game of soccer or repeated sprints. Any other time though I find the straight sugar to retard the mind. However, if I'm choosing between being stressed out or having subpar mental function, I'll choose the subpar mental function, but the same cortisol blocking, energy raising effects of sugar can be achieved by consuming it in conjunction with these other substances I listed, rather than just on its own, which a large portion of the population does in the form of candy and soda.

    I just finished a sugary yerba mate :) Definitely recommend trying this one out. Coffee/milk/sugar can sometimes have some odd effects, it's almost too potent. I've definitely had some manic moments followed by headaches and withdrawals from overdoing coffee/sugar/milk. Sugar, tea, and some fruit flavoring provides a brighter, cleaner, less intense mood lift.
  27. Never really had that with sugar but I have a raging metabolism. If I dont have some sugars every now and then I feel worse mood wise. But I dont eat that much sugar overall. Like you I have honey in te and from time to time drink coke. I never eat white sugar only honey. Pre and after work outs I take a tablespoon and from my experience it has really helped perserve muscle mass. Anyway also found this in previous posted article.

    - ”Fossils show the teeth and digestive tract of Homo erectus decreased in size around the same time brain size increased. This evidence likely means our ancestors started eating softer, higher-quality foods (although not necessarily cooked). New archaeological research has also continued to push back the earliest known date for the control of fire.”

    This also kinda speaks for ray about cooking all food even veggies. Since they get more digestible, more nutricious and better for your health mainly from a calorie point of view. Interesting the part that the teeth shrunk and brain grew. Just speaks for eating soft, digestible food that is well cooked.
  28. I think if eating only fruit is lowering brain function then you might be glycine deficient. Glycine increases efficiency so that you don't need so much energy/calories to do a given task, and often the end result is even better than it would have been otherwise when you were using 3x as much energy as necessary.
  29. Monkeys don’t have exactly the same diet as Chimpanzee. Chimpanzees eat up to 80% of their diet as fruit. Mostly figs, is what I’ve read. What I was trying to point out is that there’s a fair bit of PUFA in those figs regardless of what the digestive capabilities of these animals are. Chimpanzees are a close relative of ours and they do eat fruit deemed by Ray as not being ideal for us humans yet, as it happens, Chimps eat a whole lot of figs and have very low incidence of cancer. According to OP’s quote re: Ray’s objection to fruits with small seeds ( like berries, figs...) is mostly about the PUFA and other carcinogenic substances contained in those fruit. My point is that I see an inconsistency here: I guess if you’re a Chimp you can safely eat pounds of seeded fruit everyday for your entire life and be healthy and cancer free, but if you’re a human, not so much. (According to Peat).

  30. Oh Yerba Mate with sugar, you'll probably killed by the gauchos, they drink Mate without sugar, it's called "Mate amargo" here in my country.
  31. I also remember somewhere that Peat said as long as the seed was not broken down you would not get any of the negative things it contained, PUFA, plant toxins, etc. Seeds are rarely digested in whole form, so if they are not chewed the worst that may happen is gut irritation, and that doesn't always happen if the seeds are shrouded in fiber. I think we may be throwing the baby out with the bathwater if these proven healthy fruits are forgone because of their seeds, which are not a problem if not chewed, in my opinion.
  32. I eat fruits only local and in season, now we have good oranges and mandarins, they're really sweet so I crave them all day.

    I found that a ratio of 2:1 sugar to starch is a good balance, for me at least, potatoes are good if you gut is working well and white rice is pretty easy for digestion and good to add some calories if you need to bulk up.
  33. Ray replied
  34. I believe the one fruit you can't go wrong with is the date. They are always tree-ripened unless you buy the yellow bahri variety. I think they're the best source of carbs if you're looking to avoid starches. Bananas aren't bad either but personally I can't stand the ubiquitous Cavendish variety.

    The only real issue I experience with underripe fruit is the acidity. If I eat too many underripe mangoes, peaches, apples, etc my teeth will begin to hurt.
  35. Better than raw starch isn't exactly saying much...
  36. I think he means as in raw unripe fruit.
  37. Ray said the banana is too stressed

  38. True, plus Dates have decent amount of B vitamins, magnesium, Potassium and Copper.
  39. Does he prepare them by frying them? I sort of assumed he was making soup with them, in which case he would make the soup, put it in the fridge to cool it, then skim the fat off the top. I do this with oxtail as the fat gives off flavours. I think it's standard practice in the culinary world, and I've heard Ray mention that he also skims his soups.

    I agree. Someone asked him about blackberries specifically (possibly you since the persons name was David) and he said they would just go through you (like seeds normally do, and are supposed to do). A cooked tomato seed he thought would be irritating as it is very tender.

    I eat whatever fruit I want, as long as it doesn't give me gas and it tastes good.
  40. This may be for another thread, but does anyone know if under ripe fruits/vegetables increases their oxalic acid content? You hear a lot of talk, mostly from the carnivore people, about the problems with consuming too many oxalates, which of course would come from fruits and vegetables. It's just another plant toxin to be concerned with if you strongly feel the need to not eat plants.
  42. It is not especially difficult to get high quality fruit in America, but it is seasonal and not for sale at supermarkets. The stuff that makes it to the big box supermarkets is the dregs (everybody already ate the good stuff higher up the supply chain). For example, Paws-paws are delicious and there are a lot of them, but you'll never see them for sale because they all get eaten by the people growing them, or traded for tax-free services locally. If you want some you have to plant your own.

    To get good fruit you mostly have to trek two hours outside the cities over the course of the season. Some urban family run specialty produce shops that refuse to sell junk remain, but they are much rarer than ten years ago. When I was a kid it was all old Italian guys who barely spoke English, but they're all dead now. My grandmothers bought in bulk and canned preserves every summer. This is probably still the best way to operate: drive to the farms, load up, can in mason jars. Dehydrating is another option, I suppose.
  43. Even people who have fruit trees pick pears, apples, peaches, etc. slightly green because if they don't then the birds and bugs will eat them all. I can successfully ripen peaches, nectarines, and pears that are purchased from the grocery store (usually takes a week). I'm in central Texas so maybe that makes a difference. Forget about the plums, they are so green that they never sweeten up and get ripe. I cook the apples and also pears until very soft (1 hour at 350). I do fine with very ripe raw pears. Works for me and I've had a very long history of leaky gut and many many food allergies; these things went away after I got my thyroid supplementation optimized (T3 is barely out of range on the high side but no physical signs of hyperthyroidism). PUFA really messes my gut up though so no eating allowed at pot luck suppers and restaurants. I stick with a glass of milk and maybe some orange juice. People look at me like I'm nuts but it sure beats the alternative.
  44. I see, so they are very different from gorillas then, diet wise.

    I wonder if the chimpanzees chew the figs thoroughly or if they just chew once or twice and just swallow them. When I used to eat a lot of fruit, I recall just barely chewing it, same thing with cooked potatoes. If they don't break the seeds, then most of the toxins, including PUFA, should pass undigested.
  45. I don't know if he fries them, but the only process to decrease PUFA that came to my mind at that time was frying something in safe fats to replace the PUFAs, but yes, I think that boiling the chicken wings in water and then skimming the fat off would work too. I usually see chicken wings as something to be fried or baked, but it's totally possible that he makes soup with them.
  46. I make simply syrup out of the white sugar and just add it to spring water, I may throw in some potassium bicarbonate and some ascorbic acid in conjunction with the sugar to make the drink more hydrating.

    The only solution that I see right now would be to add even more sugar to your latte's and yogurt, and even adding it to coke can work, although it can make the coke bubble up a lot.
  47. If I could find a candy without glucose syrup it would be perfect.
  48. Well, now I wonder what he does... I think making a soup and skimming the fat would remove most of the fat. I assumed he made a soup because I assumed he was eating the wings for the gelatin, not because he like to eat bar style fried chicken wings. Skimming the fat would leave behind all the gelatin, and you could throw some greens in the broth as well.
  49. I grow about half of the fruit we eat. I've basically planted an orchard in the front and back yards on my 1/4 acre lot. The key is to plant three trees (or bushes) in the space where you would usually plant one. For example, have an early-ripening nectarine, mid-season nectarine, and late-season nectarine all basically growing as one tree.

    You can also get fruit trees now where they've grafted early- and late-ripening branches onto a mid-season tree. Or do this yourself.

    For most of the rest of the fruit we eat, I buy directly from the orchard. One of my favorites is Frog Hollow Farm (website froghollow.com) but there are a lot of organic orchards of this type around the country. They pick the fruit when it's perfectly ripe then ship it overnight or two-day.

    When I pick fruit off my own trees, it lasts a month easily. Fruit in grocery stores must spend an awful lot of time sitting in hot trucks and warehouses to go bad in just a few days.

    Fruit straight from the orchard is more expensive, but it's worth it. It's real food, full of real nutrition.
  50. I myself have stopped eating fruits for now and I've been eating the same amount of white sugar as before (400 grams a day), and I've been noticing great benefits: I no longer have any constipation at all ever, and I have 2 bowel movements a day even without magnesium( I still take magnesium anyway, because it makes me feel better overall). Cypro initially did this for me, but I think I was still ingesting enough inflammatory things to make this effect level off over time. I sleep better now, I seem to have more grip strength, bloating is reduced, gut feels nicer, etc.

    I basically eat a carnivore diet with added sugar, zero fiber, zero fruit. I did increase my fat intake to make up for the calories, since I was getting around 200 grams of carbs from fruits and potatoes.

    400 gm of white sugar a day? Seems like a lot to me ... does this not spike your BG ? Any chance you have T2D? Can't help noticing that WHITE sugar is mentioned here and elsewhere all the time. Does it imply that BROWN, unrefined sugar is bad? What about molasses sugar? I only buy and use the latter. Hope I haven't missed something ... care to elaborate?

    Also, fruit generally contains both fructose and sucrose [and others too] in varying amounts - what you wrote here seems to imply fruit contains only fructose or that the sucrose in fruit is different from white [processed] sugar [sucrose].
  52. Blending fruits increases digestibility.

    Starch is easier to digest than fruit.

    We have enzymes to digest starch, but no enzymes to digest pectin, cellulose, etc.
  53. Sugar spikes your BG if you don't eat anything else, but you want to pair sugar with protein.

    Peat says protein and sugar is a well balanced meal.

    White sugar is a supplement when no good fruit is available and you need energy.

    I think 400g of white sugar is too much because you don't get any micronutrients that you get with orange juice for example.
  54. Meat/gelatin
    Orange juice

    The perfect meal for those who can digest starch well.
  55. Yeah, it's a lot of sugar, but I do well on that much.

    I does spike my blood sugar, but it does so in a much more gentle way than starch or pure glucose. There is a graph from a study showing that sucrose is nearly half as insulinogenic as starch, given the same amount of calories.

    haha no, I don't think I have diabetes. Although this is "common knowledge" in today's society, there is actually no evidence that sucrose causes or worsens diabetes, in fact, there is evidence of the exact opposite, that sugar is either unrelated or is beneficial when it comes to treating diabetes.

    Ray has said that brown sugar contains residues from the sugarcane that can irritate the gut. Whether or not this irritation happens is individual, so if you're feeling good after consuming brown sugar, then it may mean it isn't a problem to your gut. I've tried brown sugar, but my gut didn't like it, I got bloated from it. The taste was excellent though.

    Molasses are similar to brown sugar, in that they contain a lot of stuff from the sugarcane itself, way more than just sucrose. And molasses, due to having even more residues from the sugarcane, can be a more powerful allergen than brown sugar, but I would think that, if your gut is really strong, then it's likely a non issue.

    Regarding fruit, yes, fruits contain usually sucrose( fructose and glucose bound together), free fructose and free glucose.

    The sugar present in fruits isn't identical to white sugar, because white sugar is almost 100% sucrose, so there is no free sugars in white sugar. In many fruits that I have looked into, there is a significant amount of free sugars, although there is always some sucrose. Apples, pears, dates, apricots, prunes and watermelon are good examples. You can confirm this information on nutritional databases, such as selfnutritiondata.com or nutritionvalue.org.
  56. That much white sugar will likely cause nutritional deficiencies over time, unless you supplement things such as b-vitamins, vitamin C, as well as minerals, such as magnesium, potassium and calcium, which I do.

  57. Yeah, supplement could be a good option, I do with Magnesium, but Potassium supplementation seems to cause some issues for me.

    I try to get good amount of micros/minerals from milk, OJ, dates, honey, then supplement with white sugar to reach my energy requirements, when I choose to no eat potatoes.
  58. What problems does potassium cause for you? Also, what form of potassium did you try using?

    Those foods are quite dense in nutrients( honey might be an exception, since it's mostly carbs, but it's one of the best sources of boron, so I would consider it nutrient dense in that sense), so not much supplementation is needed with the white sugar, unless you use a lot of it.
  59. Used potassium chloride and citrate both caused gut discomfort, bloating etc
  60. Wrong.

    In fact, Peat has even gone on the record to say that for those with digestive problems, starch should be ZERO.

    I've experimentally proven this myself also. I can gain weight on a small amount of starch but eat a very large amount of sugar comparatively with no problems.
  61. Wrong.

    It depends on the context of the individual. Plums worsen my skin quality, potatoes improve it.
  62. Ok, but plums are not "all fruits" and potatoes are not "all starches". Potatoes are indeed one of the most benign starches, and maybe for you plums are one of the worst fruits.

    So, perhaps I'll admit that some starches are better than some fruits, but as a whole, sugar is better assimilated than starch and on average starch aggravates endotoxin more than sugar.

    Anyway, just quoting what Ray said, and my own experiences seem to jive.

    That said, I do like potatoes too, they are indeed one of the more benign starches and provide some unique nutrients.
  63. You don't have to treat any information you find as a restriction. You can use it to make informed choices from what is available to you, given your situation.

    There are issues with food supply the world over.
    That will take a lot of concerted work to improve, and is probably worthwhile.

    Along with that, I'd suggest experimenting and find what works for you. You can find the ripest fruit available locally, wash it thoroughly to remove surface toxins, and see which ones agrees with you, raw or cooked.
    You can try to avoid the seediest parts of some fruits. A lot of small seeds tend to pass straight through (if there are pockets in the gut, that may be problematic).

    If starch causes you trouble, then that's an issue to weigh up. For me, I get less trouble with eating some well cooked spuds and other roots than with too much fruit - maybe because the fruit I have available is sub-optimal, but maybe because I run better on some starch than all sugar. I look for fruit in season that's ripe enough to taste good.


    Turnips have negligible starch, don't they? The carbs are mostly sugars (and fibre).
  64. Whether this is true or not, nobody eats 'starch' or 'sugar' (excluding pure table sugar, which isn't exactly a health food). People are eating specific food items, and the reaction to these are variable and depend on contextual factors. This is exactly what the OP was trying to say. What does it matter if sugar is better assimilated than starch if, in practice, all of the sources of sugar are low quality? If one is in a context where potatoes are of high quality and fruits are not, it's simply not correct to say that 'sugar is better assimilated than starch.' Such a statement assumes a vacuum, and none of us live in a vacuum. Such an interpretation of Peat's work seems to me to be driven by rules-based serotonergic thinking.

    If you're sick but choose to consume unripe, low quality fruit over a starchy tuber because 'Peat said sugar is assimilated better than starch,' then you're missing the point of Peat's work entirely.

    "Is optimal health from a cellular metabolic perspective achievable in today’s society with the lack of availability of optimal foods and with all the toxins and pollution in the environment?"

    "If optimal means the best possible under bad circumstances, yes, otherwise, no. Optimal health requires optimal food, and a change of society."

    I've been reconsidering my melon consumption because of this thread - I notice that it's very hit or miss whether you get a sweet, mushy one or a plain, starchy one. They come from Spain, so I suspect they're being grown improperly for shipping purposes. I think if you're going to consume fruit, it's probably best to consume it when it's native to ones own country and in season, or frozen at least. In the UK in September, that means strawberries and pears are on the menu.
  65. +1
  66. I see. But your diet seems rich enough in potassium, so you probably don't need to supplement it, especially if it gives you gut problems.
  67. I think so, just a couple of grams of starch, the rest is just sugar and fiber.
  68. how are grapes for most people? I love eating them with milk as a a snack, and find they give me good energy. However, not sure if they are too carb-heavy?
  69. For most people grapes are good, I'd wash them very well and peel them if possible.