Fructose Alters Brain Genes Negatively. How To Counter This From Peat Perspective?

Discussion in 'Scientific Studies' started by lollipop, Apr 23, 2016.

  1. tyw

    tyw Member

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    Yes. It doesn't mean that they should though ;). We are dealing with multiple systems at varying tiers in the hierarchy of metabolism. As a generic rule of thumb, I try to stay on the safe side, and start recommendations at "optimal" values.

    The main questions are:
    (1) How much fructose is required for metabolic benefits?
    (2) Is more fructose going to be more metabolically beneficial?

    As for question (1), Peat's "Quart of Orange Juice a day" actually is pretty accurate. That would be about 100g sugar, and let's say 50-60g of fructose depending on source.

    Most of the research will show moderate amounts of fructose (10% of total carbohydrate) increasing the rate of glucose oxidation by a wide margin. (Search for "fructose hepatic glucose oxidation" for studies). 10% of total carbohydrate isn't a lot of fructose, ie: you don't need a lot to gain the benefits, and Peat's suggestion of "A Quart of Orange juice" actually provides a sort of nice middle ground for that.

    So is more better? If you can handle it, likely yes ;). But what does "if you can handle it" mean? While I do agree that fructose is not only metabolised in the liver, a substantial portion of it is. There have been previous complaints on this forum about "Peat doesn't consider liver health" to be a factor (I'm Done With Ray Peat Diet. More Hair Loss, Abdominal Problems, Possible Fatty Liver).

    This is where I agree that more qualification of personal context is required. Myself for example, can't handle as much fructose when I also eat more protein and fat (not a lot, even 15% of calories as fat gives me some issues). In the end I pinned it down to under-methylation, and supplementation with low-dose Molybdenum and Manganese actually solves the issue. Will this issue resolve itself in the future? Likely yes, but during the recovery process, it probably is a good idea to get "just enough fructose"

    People on this forum have also heard the caveats that @haidut has given regarding not going too aggressive with PUFA depletion -- lots of mobilised circulating PUFAs will do some harm, and too much fructose with a PUFA load is also going to be an issue.

    NOTE: the 15% fructose value is high in that study specifically given the uncontrolled PUFA intake. This shouldn't necessarily be taken to mean that it is high if PUFA intake is low or close to nothing.

    So personally, I'm more conservative in this respect, and will say to stick to some fructose, say 50g a day (100g of sugar, which is basically 10% of calories from fructose in a lowish calorie 2,000kcal diet), which is significant enough to gain benefits, while preventing the downsides.

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  2. tara

    tara Member

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    So it could work fine for Peat and some others to eat a lot more sugar (littel or no starch) and so maybe more fructose than in the study above, but your view is that many of us would be better off with at least some starch, and maybe at least as much starch as sucrose (or other fructose/sucrose mix)?
    From personal experience and intuition about how things feel to me, I'd say my system does not want me to trade in all the starch for sugar either. And nor is it interested in going back to previous low sugar-high starch practice. Hopefully taste can serve as a reasonable guide to the mix. :)
     
  3. tyw

    tyw Member

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    Firstly, I do not know what Peat does, nor his health context and tolerances. He has some good ideas and presents evidence, and that's what counts.

    Second, I don't like how the word "starch" has been used. The actual definition is very specific, but many have attributed to it a complected definition consisting certain foods, with the compounds they provide, with the actual definition of "polysaccharide".

    I will use the original "Polysaccharide" definition for the word "starch", which in the form of natural foods, is either Amylose or Amylopectin, both of which are simply glucose polymers.

    Starch-containing foods need to be treated independently.

    • Wheat contains starch, but also contains short chain FODMAPS, and of course, gluten. The last 2 are not handled well by people, irrespective of if the actual amylose content is metabolically useful.
    • Potatoes contain varying degrees of amylose and amylopectin depending on the type. "Waxy" potatoes have more amylopectin, and "Floury" potatoes have more amylose. Some people in their health recovery stage may not do well well amylose (see Andrew Kim's posts on starch molecules being literally stuck in intestinal tight junctions). Some people may not handle potato lectin well. Again, this has absolutely nothing to do with the actual metabolic substrate (glucose) and everything to do with higher level potentially inflammatory causes
    • Long grain rain has more amylose, shorter rain and "stickier" rice has more amylopectin. Again, amylose tends to digest more slowly than amylopectin, and slower digestion can mean more potential for endotoxin production. The type of rice matters.
    The real argument is really Glucose vs Fructose, to which I agree, if you can side-step all issues concerning digestion, and have good fructose processing ability, a higher percentage of Fructose is probably useful. But we can't side-step all the issues leading up to eventual use of these metabolic substrates, and each person will have to figure out what foods work best for them.

    Personally, I'm fine with any amount of pure sucrose, and I'm fine with any amount of short grain rice. Wheat, potatoes, and almost any other grain gives me bloating issues (ie: likely endotoxin insult) if eaten in any significant amount (say 100g of wheat).

    "Fruit" also needs to be distinguished, and you can see Peat's bias for things like fruit juices and stewed fruit, rather than fruit that likely contains fermentable products (like pectin in Apples).

    Again, one of the main themes in Peat's recommendations is "Quick-to-Digest", with the assumption that slow-to-digest foods can potentially lead to bacterial endotoxin production. I agree with this sentiment, and it has panned out in my own experience.

    So if you get all these issues sorted out, and only eat quick-to-digest foods with few or no allergens (specific to your case), then we can begin experimentation on how much fructose should be consumed.

    And regardless if you're eating primarily glucose or fructose, the key metric of keeping metabolism high and free fatty acids relatively lowered is still being achieved.

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  4. OP
    lollipop

    lollipop Guest

    Again @tyw these are extremely helpful posts and give a direction for more research and thought for each person's specific case. Thank you for taking the time to post.
     
  5. Heidi

    Heidi Member

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    I really appreciate your posts tyw. I hope that you write more here or give a link to other places where you post. I would like to hear more of your diet and supplement recommendations.
    When you say PUFA plus sugar is a killer are you referring to the same meal? For example, if one ate some fish, would it be much better to not eat any sugar or carbs at the same time? Or are you referring to a person's entire diet in general, meaning that someone who ate high fat and no carb will not be as harmed by the DHA?

    Which season and why?
     
  6. tyw

    tyw Member

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    I only post in some closed Facebook group nowadays ;) It's mostly conversations with people and doctors I've come across over the years.

    I'll take some excerpts from that group though .... This is regarding the "Contradictory Signals from PUFA"

    (a) The topic of insulin resistance or insulin sensitivity needs to be addressed very specifically to tissues.

    (b) What we claimed was that mitochondrial respiration due to the breakdown of PUFAs is "insulin sensitizing". Details here -- http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/.../protons...

    First to address point (b) -- mitochondrial respiration of PUFA supports insulins further function

    This is PURELY based off mitochondrial mechanics. We are assuming that PUFAs are completely oxidised, and produce the amounts of NADH and FADH2 that they are known to potentially produce, and that these substrate are fed into mitochondrial inputs.

    If those assumptions hold true IN A PARTICULAR CELL, then we can say that PUFAs do not allow for reverse Electron flow, do not create a superoxide burst, do not depress delta psi, and UNDER THESE CONDITIONS, insulin signalling is not controlled -- excess nutrients into a cell without mitochondrial negative feedback.

    This is what is meant by mitochondrial-respiration-derived "insulin sensitivity" from oxidising PUFAs.

    Coconut oil is the opposite -- mostly saturated fat which will blunt insulin's activity, and the MCTs used do not raise delta psi (I will leave the reader to investigate these claims for themselves).

    Metabolic use of Saturated fat generates insulin resistance as a result. Coconut oil pushes one toward adaptations for insulin resistance, IF AND ONLY IF we analyse it purely through mitochondrial mechanics.

    Then point (a) -- "insulin resistance / sensitivity" needs to be defined in terms of the scope of concerned tissues.

    eg: How do you lose fat the fastest? Have adipose tissue be insulin resistant (unable to store more fat), and have all other tissue be insulin sensitive. This is why Caffeine + Resistance training works (see Lyle McDonald's work on Leptin and Dieting)

    Functionally speaking, insulin resistance and sensitivity needs to be spoken of with respect to specific tissues. Like "the adipose tissues are insulin resistant", "thecardiac muscles are insulin sensitive", etc ....

    We keep talking about respiration-derived insulin control because it is likely the largest factor. (To see the significant, see Bill Lagakos' latest post on dietary modifications, and thus changes in respiratory substrate, on weight loss --http://caloriesproper.com/insulin-resistance-is-a-spectrum/)

    First, PUFA can cause insulin resistance at the mitochondrial level if combined with glycerol-phosphate (which we assume to be elevated after Fructose consumption). This is not PUFA, but PUFA + Fructose.

    NOTE: even in this case, Fructose metabolism is heavily regulated by the liver -- a dose of fructose may lead to the PUFA + Fructose complications in the liver, but not in the muscles. Again, "What tissues are we talking about" needs to be qualified.

    PUFA can cause insulin resistance at a tissue level through a variety of factors, which do not involve mitochondrial mechanics. The list is too large here -- elevation of FFAs alone shift the Randle effect away from carbs, PUFA disruption of thyroid hormones can shunt metabolism downward and induce lower delta psi, Prostaglandin synthesis has a multitude of effects, Circadian CLOCK and BMAL genes seem to be suppressed (which usually means impaired glucose metabolism and insulin resistance), etc, etc .....

    These are higher level effects, and you can clearly see that the low-level effects and the high level effects seem to pull at OPPOSITE directions in the insulin resistance/sensitivy spectrum. These are just observations, but they do suggest very confusing signals to the body under high PUFA consumption.

    The evolutionary perspective will say that these conflicting signals are precisely what is needed to shift from a summer to winter metabolism.

    I personally don't really have an opinion on that, and just see it as "PUFA reduces metabolic function", which is undesirable in my book.

    So regards to your question, "When you say PUFA plus sugar is a killer are you referring to the same meal?". The answer is "it depends" ;)

    Take one scenario: Overweight person, already full of PUFA, insulin resistant, etc ... give them PUFA + Sugar => all sorts of complications from high FFAs (and the Randle effect), worsening inherent issues with transporting glucose into the cell (it's fair to assume this person's GLUT transporters are shitty), bad enzyme mechanics for carbs, whatever.

    Same scenario: PUFA then Sugar (couple hours later), probably not much of a functional difference.

    Whereas for someone like me: Now relatively PUFA depleted, sub 10% bodyfat, genetically pretty insulin sensitive and on a low fat diet in general, plus knowledge of "PUFA defence" solutions, etc .... Now if I ate a dozen eggs in the morning, took some Vitamin E (which also reduces methylglyoxal BTW, so not much AGEs either), was already at a baseline higher fatty acid oxidation level due to an overnight fast, had some caffeine and nicotine (gum) to increase fatty acid disposal, moved around a little bit, burned all the consumed PUFAs within the next 3-4 hours, and then ate sugar ..... this would probably not do me any longer term harm.

    If I ate lots of PUFA + Sugar at the same time, then we have substrate competition .... this increases the likelihood that those eaten PUFAs actually get stored, only to be mobilised at a later date to cause harm.

    So if you really want to split hairs, then yes, I can see how separating PUFA intake (and large-bolus Fat Intake in general) from carbohydrate intake, is probably a good thing.

    Note: Yes, you do get the Randle effect with Saturated Fats + Sugar, but the stored Saturated-fat isn't harmful.​

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    Personally though, I view the biggest threat not from uncontrolled binges of PUFA + Sugar (eg: a dozen donuts :birthdaycake:), but from slow accumulation of PUFA in tissues and serum which produce systemic insulin resistance (amidst a bunch of other effects), and which also then favours the mobilisation of a lot of extra FFA and the skewing away from glucose metabolism. ie: the spiral into Diabetes :dead:

    That's not to say that acute huge doses of fructose and Fat of any form isn't going to be an issue as well, it's just different issues at the low level. eg: dual mtGAPDH (fructose) and Succinate dehydrogenase (fat) activity driving huge reverse electron flow through Complex 1, and hence a lot of Reactive Oxygen Species (ROS). One will have to search for papers involving "How mitochondria generate reactive oxygen species", to see just how much (sometimes 10x) the magnitude difference in ROS production is from Reverse Electron flow, vs normal forward flow ROS generation at Complex 3.

    We can keep on adding to the list of harmful low-level PUFA effects :p -- lack of "the right amount" of ROS feedback, potential for electron leak at ETFdh, inefficiency of breakdown in perixomes, incorporation into the mitochondrial membrane being observed to slow substrate use (of both pyruvate and succinate, no mechanics, but this observations is repeatable), reduction of uncoupling protein activity, etc, etc .....

    Then we can list the higher level effects of PUFA, which has already done to an amazing degree on this forum.

    Whatever, this post is getting long :stop: ....


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  7. tyw

    tyw Member

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    Regarding DHA and PUFA

    This was an idea generated on the Jack Kruse forum, where terms like "Seasonal Ketosis" during the Winter months were meant to mimic the natural insulin resistance that animals and people go through during low-light months.

    Good in theory, horrible in the context of the modern stressed-out world ;). I wouldn't recommend that path.

    Political Sidenote: Yes, I was involved in that gang in the early days. The ideas were novel and pretty interesting to explore, and explore I did. I left when the ideas went into the wacky area of Quantum Electrodynamics (QED), which I now believe to be complete nonsense, only based on some people's flawed math paradigms. (Thank you Miles Mathis for the systemic logical destruction of QED :cyclops:)

    It was a good exercise though ;), and as the old Chinese saying goes: 知己知彼,百戰百勝 (understand yourself and your enemy, and you are bound to CRUSH them).

    My now-non-active Kruse forum profile is here -- yewwei.tan | Jack Kruse Optimal Health Forum

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  8. 800mRepeats

    800mRepeats Member

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    Thank you, tyw, for the eloquent explanation.
    I very much enjoy and share your concern for context.
     
  9. sugarbabe

    sugarbabe Member

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    @tyw I hope you will stick around here. We need more science minds! So I'm intrigued by your views on fructose, so you wouldn't advise someone to do say 2 eggs plus 10 oz of oj and TBS sugar? That was my dinner. How much pufa is too much combined with fructose?
     
  10. tyw

    tyw Member

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    Well, you first need to know that I am a conservative when it comes to both risk and uncertainty management ;).

    I will mostly agree with Peat's sugar article (Glucose and sucrose for diabetes.), but I will also question the assumption that all Fructose is going to be metabolised effectively. This is clearly not always the case, and my perspective has always been: "What is the least amount of X to be consumed for the most amount of benefit"

    If you look at the studies that Peat and others cite, we're seeing significant metabolic benefits at a fructose intake of 10% of total carbs (so if you eat 50% carbs, that's 5% fructose of total calories), and then all the way up to a fructose intake of 60% of total calories (in rats, but I will take this to mean that if fructose is metabolised properly and not in caloric excess, then it really is almost a case of "more is better").

    So we've got a wide range there, and where one sits in that range is dependent on many factors.

    Your 2 eggs + 10oz orange juice example is TBH, only 2g of PUFA. This is nothing compared to a 40g PUFA binge (not uncommon at all). Maybe that PUFA gets stored, and most likely it gets preferentially mobilised and oxidised while you're asleep, and no harm is done.

    But let's say someone chronically consumes 10g of PUFA in a single meal with lots of carbs and sugars as well. Will this lead to PUFA accumulation in the liver? It depends :arghh: .....

    - on carbohydrate clearance rates (eg: if GLUT4 is elevated after resistance training, and then you eat say 100g of carbs and 20g of fat, a lot of those carbs may possibly just go straight to glycogen synthesis and thus not really interfere much with the metabolism of the consumed fat)

    - on how much substrate is consumed versus metabolic capacity.

    Sidenote: while I disagree with ItsTheWooo on a couple of key issues, her quip is true that: "A 50% carb, 1,000kcal diet, is a ketogenic diet". It's always going to be a case of substrate availability vs metabolic capacity.
    - on circadian cycle considerations -- Insulin sensitivity usually better in the morning (probably also a better time for carbs and protein)

    - on day-by-day fluctuations in metabolic capacity. Some days you will be more insulin resistant than others. Not enough sleep, bad weather, whatever .... does more fructose perk you up, or bring you down? Those are questions that are plausibly testable, and if you want to geek out on stuff like heart rate variability, capnometer measurements, etc ... you can, and can use that information to determine if something if good for you or not. (Though my testing methods are far too Wooo!! for discussion ;))

    - on higher-level organ health and possible genetic considerations -- eg: one of my doctor friends often sees CBS single-nucleotide polymorphisms and under-methylation during cases of thrashed liver health (and usually these people are smoking too much weed for their own good :dead:).

    NOTE: this gene handles sulfation reactions, and usually the first step is to see if sulfur containing compounds (like many vegetables) are causing symptoms, and then talk about metabolic recovery. The reason not to put in more fructose than needed here is that the liver is already in a stressed out state (and yes, a lot of the fructose you eat still goes through the liver)​

    Should these people eat a lot of fructose to reduce stress? My stance would have been "fix the underlying stressor, and then some fructose", like 50g a day, and then adjust from there according to results.​

    - more on the topic of pre-existing stressors, I just saw a thread yesterday (on someplace else in the Internet), whereby 2 people had Rosacea, and one solved it with simple Progesterone supplementation, and another was on so many different things (but making progress), because of a whole host of issues that snowballed from a specific surgery they had to fix another issue. This is the job for a real Doctor :rightmagnify: (remember, I am just a crazy soon-to-be-25-year-old Software Developer). A doctor who can diagnose and fix "leaks in the energetic chain" one-by-one until metabolic health can be fully restored.

    - more on the topic of Individual differences ;) different people will have different ability to metabolise carbs vs fat -- Insulin resistance is a spectrum . My ancestry hails from a 20-23 deg north latitude band, I do insanely well with <10% fat. My Italian-Irish friend is probably more in the 30-40% range (still avoiding PUFA of course). The "metabolic capacity" is going to be different, and as a wild guess, I'd think that if you can deal with oxidising fats better, then you can probably deal with consumed PUFA more quickly as well.

    Sidenote: if you want to see the sickest places on earth, look at the health statistics for heart disease and diabetes in lower latitude Asian regions -- India, Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, etc .... the rates are amazingly high, and the PUFA intake is amazingly high (I say that being Chinese, and having lived in the region for 17 years ;), and therefore knowing what they eat)


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    And that's a long way of saying: Yup, eat the eggs and the orange juice ... with some caution against thinking that "more fructose is always better".

    Experiment and adjust :hammer:

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  11. sugarbabe

    sugarbabe Member

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    @tyw Wow Thanks for the response!

    Here is my anecdote regarding PUFA consumption. For about 1 year I was avoiding PUFA with plenty of sugars from milk, cane sugar, and juice and some rice. During that time I was experiencing a lot of adrenaline rushes. I am now consuming more fat, at least 35-40% of calories which usually comes out at least 9-11 g PUFA,with at least 150 g sugar 50 g starch (including wheat) depending. I have less blood sugar issues, and can sleep through the night more readily without needing a 3 am snack of sugar. Maybe I just don't do well limiting fats, maybe it was all the milk sending my blood sugar down I don't know but I am reluctant to try it again. The only milk I've been doing is what little bit is in Haagen Daz before bed :p
     
  12. tyw

    tyw Member

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    Well, that's good then. Do what works, and experiment cautiously with new stuff. :blackalien:

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  13. Heidi

    Heidi Member

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    Thanks tyw for your detailed response to my questions. I went over to the Kruse forum and read a lot of your latter posts there. Thanks for posting the link. I really respect your experimentation, research, and transition to doing something that worked better for you. You did a good job defending your research and experimentation, even when faced with what appeared to me to be authoritarian dogma and arrogance.

    I am very interested in learning how to use a biotensor rod for testing of personal coherence of a particular supplement. I have used muscle testing on myself for years to test supplements. It has been helpful for me when I'm not clear. But what you are doing sounds a lot more specific and beneficial. I was disappointed to read that you learned how to do it in person from Ferber, and didn't know how to teach it. I would love to see a video of the technique if you are ever inspired to do that. I did a lot of different energy techniques along those lines in my past, and had a sensitivity for those kinds of things.

    I would love to keep reading where you are at now with your experimentation, if you were inspired to start a log here. Thanks again for all you have shared.
     
  14. Parsifal

    Parsifal Member

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    A bit out of topic but is sulfate like in epsom salt the same as sulfur for this metabolic pathway and does it have to do with sulfites?
     
  15. tyw

    tyw Member

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    Yes, "sulfate" refers to the Magnesium Sulfate in epsom salts. But what I was referring to specifically in the post were various sulfation reactions, some of which are handled by the COMT enzyme (and hence are affected by COMT gene activity). For example, Gluthathione recycling comes under this category.

    This was borne of my prior readings behind Sulfated Cholesterol and it's important feedback loops in the body. eg: Yes, chronic Nitric Oxide is bad, but it also seems to be a critical acute regulatory of sulfated cholesterol deposition in the heart. Details here -- A novel hypothesis for atherosclerosis as a cholesterol sulfate deficiency syndrome

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  16. tyw

    tyw Member

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    Thanks :thumbsup:. Debating people who want to use feelings and dogma as weapons is always fun ;).

    (The text below should be taken as SPECULATORY, and at best, a source of ideas for experimentation)

    Anyway, the testing methodology that I'm using is a combination of "Quatum Reflex Analysis" (QRA) (I really hate the name ...), and Dietrich Klinghardt's Autonomic Response Testing (ART):



    QRA relies on muscle testing as a diagnostic tool, while applying force using different "finger polarities" on key acupuncture points. Klinghardt relies on a bunch of techniques, but they are based on his observation of un-polarized light being emitted in 3 distinct "Auric Fields" when a particular set of meridians are not functional.

    (And if people here want proof of meridians, look up some of Mae-wan Ho's articles on collagen superconductivity, extra conductivity at acupuncture points, and some recent data on actual electromagnetic + stain mapping of the collagen meridians -- Science finally Proves Meridians Exist)

    See also this video of living fascia (collagen) moving dynamically: (Thanks to my friend Paleo Osteo ;) / Dr Josh Lamaro for the link)


    I eschew muscle testing because it is too unreliable across patients, and because it only manages to test the body surface field. Klinghard's observations, as well as many traditional practices over the centuries, reliably show that there are different sets of E/M fields being emitted off the body's surface, and this is actually measurable as degree of light polarisation.

    Healthy tissues emit polarized light -- everything in the same phase / "in agreement with each other". Unhealthy tissues start to emit all sorts of light.

    The biotensor rod is then just a sensitive metal rod that can pick up "changes in energetic polarity". I much prefer Miles Mathis models of photon spin, because it gives solid mechanics for distinguishing between Spin in one direction or another, corresponding to "Positive and Negative" polarity, which may explain why a "negative signal" is always uniformly a counter-clockwise spin in the biotensor rod. If you want details (which are not needed to understand this discussion) see Mathis' "pair production" article.

    In any case, the above is just a mechanical discussion. The therapeutic use involves a further integration of Chinese Medicine and meridian knowledge to figure out which meridians connect to which organ systems, what information those meridians give, and therefore what can be done about it.

    We must remember that Collagen Meridians are just "wires" that carry energy. They do not likely reflect the actual energy in an organ system, but do reflect the energetic flux to and from an organ system. This gives us hints at the function of an organ.

    "Testing supplements" can then be done by "directing the supplement's energy" at a particular meridian, and seeing if it fixes that meridian. Compounds are basically just electromagnetic signalling agents, and different compounds encode different frequencies.

    Klinghardt claims that by putting insulin on a certain crystal medium, and then placing it in vicinity of the body, that the body responds as if it had insulin injected into it (while the crystal medium remains in the immediate proximity). I am skeptical of these claims, but then again, have witnessed this effect with many other compounds, so I can't dismiss my empirical experience (as well as many patient's experience).

    From the oriental perspective, "testing supplements" is basically using the human body to "project the resonance field" into the meridian that you are testing. In my mind, this opens up a whole bunch of possibilities for testing. The simplest test would be simply to measure the degree of light polarisation off a meridan with and without a compound that claims to fix it.

    This of course, is a moving target, and I myself will test for Molybdenum on the liver for 2 hours of one day, and then maybe not again for another week. The body is a living system, and this is very difficult to quantify. The crazy thing is that after using this system for almost a year, the results are crazy accurate :doctor:

    I have no explanation for why the body specifically responds in particular manners. I can get the correlates -- everything from planetary positions, to the people whom you're with, to the dark-light cycles of the day, but I have no method of saying "Why" something happened. I can only say "What happened" (eg: your GB5 point is currently testing OFF). Again, potentially quantifiable, but for now I am just an observer who is unwilling to make further claims to causality.

    I also hate even more so the people who claim to be "Energetic Healers" :yuck:. ALL of this is potentially quantifiable, and we should think about ways to quantify it.

    More importantly, knowing that "a meridian is OFF" is only a diagnostic. It doesn't tell why it is OFF. For that, you MUST understand Bio-energetics, Mitochondrial Function, Hormone signalling, Viral and Bacterial mechanics, etc, etc ....

    So yes, all the measures spoken about on this Forum are in the right direction -- Maximising Bio-Energetic Potential in the Organism.

    The stuff that myself (and Paleo Osteo too :bag:) are looking at are trying to narrow down which specific substances, and when, are the most useful for a particular person. That necessitates a more hands-on approach.

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  17. lindsay

    lindsay Member

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    @tyw - ^ amazing! Though now I will need to watch that longer video :) I'd love to hear your thoughts on Acupuncture and crystals for healing (I'm quite skeptical of the latter, but the hippie doctor I went to once upon a time had a bunch of them in his office)......
     
  18. tyw

    tyw Member

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    Yeah, I don't like these people who claim that "Crystals are healing" .... without being able to show direct observable effects, nor explain any mechanics :bigtears:. I am much more cautious in claiming truthful observations, and much more stringent in discarding things that do not work.

    And sorry you crystal lovers who claim that these help "protect you from negative EMF fields", I've tested all the crystals which claim to have these properties by now (Amethyst, Obsidian, Black Tourmaline, etc ....), and sourced from various parts of the world, and none of them cut down my Wifi routers field by even 1% (I have an EMF meter to test this. Example of one such test -- TENSEGRITY 14: Comments are now welcome | Page 5 | Jack Kruse Optimal Health Forum).

    As for acupuncture, it is an observable fact that document points have higher conductivity than non-acupuncture points, and that needling the point with a conductive needle (some needles are not conductive) increases the observed charge on that point.

    Now, is this useful? Depends, but for systemic issues I think the effect is marginal. For specific contexts, like "freeing up tension" in the adductors so that further manipulation can be done to fix a spasmed-out medial glute, yeah, possibly useful. But the expertise needed is very steep, and I do not trust most practitioners for anything more than a quick fix.

    Again, these acupuncture points just correspond to long contiguous wires of collagen which carry energy. You can and will very literally short-circuit the system if you meddle around too much with these points, and unfortunately, the Western scientific method has not adequately examined how and when doing something to the body will affect these points (I will credit the west here -- their scientific enquiry methodology is far more accurate when done right).

    And don't get me started on how vaccinations screw with Acupuncture meridians ;)

    Only now are we looking at more sophisticated and less invasive (or at least more controllable) methods like Laser Acupuncture (usually using either Red or Blue light). It is still a budding field, and I do not trust it yet.

    I still view Bio-energetics as the key metric of health, which is also why I view the Acupuncture meridians as non-invasive diagnostic sites, rather than points for intervention.

    Intervention strategies are reserved for truly trained professionals, and those are few and far between.

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  19. Heidi

    Heidi Member

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    Thanks tyw for the detailed explanation. I feel a deep resonance with what you wrote. The living fascia video was great. I will watch the other video when I have more time.
    I understand. I had a bad experience long ago with a chiropractor muscle testing me and being completely wrong. For me she did lot more harm than healing, though she was wildly successful and people loved her work. Also, I've known people who have used muscle testing, as well as other energy medicine practices to delude themselves. I am guilty of self-delusion around a lot of things too, as what we believe about something has a powerful influence. One has to be more interested in finding out the truth about something and seeing clearly. Also, one needs an openness to keep learning, a willingness to be wrong, and an ability to revise and update beliefs and thinking.

    The biotensor rod testing and its accuracy seems like it was key for you (and maybe others) in making some big shifts in healing. It seems like clearness and accuracy in what a particular individual needs is extraordinarily helpful, as so much time can be spent exploring things that don't work and perhaps even cause more harm.

    I found one type of muscle testing that seems to work for me in a general way, but not specifically in terms of meridians or organs. I tried lots of other types of muscle testing and other kinds of testing. Something more specific that improved accuracy would be welcome and helpful.

    I have found this kind of thing in general to be so true. People try to regiment their bodies rather than tuning in to its rhythms and flows. Lately it's been seeming like my body needs a certain level of vitality and energy in order to utilize a supplement.

    I'm not sure if this would interest you or not. But a long time ago when I was really sick, I had good results using biocircuits. Here is one article about them: http://altered-states.net/barry/newsletter525/biocircuits.pdf Anyhow, what made me think about them was that you could insert a substance into the circuit and you would feel and obtain the benefit or harm of that substance on energetic levels. For example you could feel the euphoria from a drug, without the physical hangover.

    I would be interested in this if you wanted to explain more or direct me to a link.
     
  20. tyw

    tyw Member

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    Again, I am always cautious :oldman:. The rule of thumb for assessment for me is "Will this do me any harm? And if so, how quickly can I recover?"

    eg: I'm willing to experiment with the IdeaLabs stuff because the side effects are basically harmless (I've got no DMSO reactions). Even if they gave no benefit, it would still be fine to experiment pretty aggressively (but they do have benefits ;), though I've only seen the good effects from Mitolipin, Pansterone, and Kuinone)

    With interventions that forcible add charge to points of the body, we have to be more careful. PEMF can heal bone, but it is also a generic growth signal that can lead to cancer. Electro stim at various points of the body (which is basically the idea of Biocircuits) can overload certain meridians and leave the person non-functional.

    As for drugs, I'm personally a believer that you can have "action at a distance", "resonant field" action of drugs through something like what Klinghardt did with insulin, but the action is weak, and only present if resonance is held over the entire period of treatment. This cannot compare to actually taking a compound, and "have its resonance linger" in the body for a prolonged time. (Another place where I push back on the wooowoo people :banghead:). Real supplements for real lasting effects!


    Vaccinations require a whole different set of explanations :penguin:. I'll modify a post I did in the past and re-purpose here.

    This stemmed from a couple of things:

    - My friend Paleo Osteo would notice that seemingly random ailments like Kidney stones would lead to pronation of the foot -- explicable by contiguous merdians from the big toe to the kidneys. This only one of the many symptoms of systemic internal dysfunction leading to motor pattern dysfunction, that was literally palpable by a trained osteopath like himself.

    - My other friend Mr Ferber would notice "hotspots" of de-coherence at vaccination sites, which crazy enough, could be fixed by volcanic mud packing :peeking:, which would then lead to relief of symptoms of his patients over time. This was very specific to vaccination points. (and don't ask me about mechanics here, I have no clue :chicken:, except to say that somehow these traditional mudpacking practices actually removes harmful components like heavy metals in vaccines from the site of injection. Again, no clue, this is pure observation)


    So let's try to break down the topic of vaccinations into a few simple parts .... (this is obviously not a thorough treatment of the problem, but is useful enough as a starting point to start to tease apart the situation and see if there is anything to be gained)

    ----

    (a) Immunity conferred by Hormetic Stress

    IMO, the principle behind vaccinations is sound -- introduce a small stressor so that you can build immunity towards a bigger stressor of the same sort.

    Even by this principle, there will be some people who will not gain better immunity -- their bodies fail to make the needed antibodies, or for whatever reason, do not gain the needed immunity.

    Regardless, if vaccines delivered pure samples of the pathogen that is immunity is target against, they would be completely beneficial. The only question then becomes how you control dosing, and how to confer the greatest breadth of immunity (in terms of number of different pathogens to be immunised against).

    I have nothing against the principles of vaccination at all. It is the implementation of modern vaccines that poses problems.

    ----

    (b1) Harm-Causing Implementation of Vaccines -- Injections

    The first implementations of "vaccinations" were actually done through inoculations only to the skin or other superficial regions (like the nose). ie: only superficial physical damage to the body was done, and the deep tissues were never touched.

    Today, vaccines are injected into various parts of the body, which itself can (and usually does) disrupt many components of the body. Of course, Western Medicine doesn't exactly believe in collagen meridians and what not, so this sort of systemic failures are never considered ;)

    ----

    (b2) Harm-Causing Implementation of Vaccines -- Dangerous Metals

    Vaccines today are rife with metals that are harmful to the body -- stuff like Aluminium in massively toxic doses, presumably to maintain stability of the vaccine over time.

    Here's just some of the many many studies showing that Aluminium is pretty bad for collagen:

    - [The effect of aluminum on the structure and metabolism of collagen]. - PubMed - NCBI
    - Effects of Chronic Aluminum Exposure on the Collagen Metabolism of Bone and Cartilage in Rats: The Toxic Effects of Aluminum on Bone and Cartilage in Rats
    - Aluminum action on mouse bone cell metabolism and response to PTH and 1,25(OH)2D3
    - Metabolic Dysregulation and Adipose Tissue Fibrosis: Role of Collagen VI
    - Metabolism and possible health effects of aluminum.

    You basically get inhibited collagen synthesis (and more), and since meridians are just collagen, that's your "medirian disruption" mechanism right there.

    There is no upside here. These components are toxic, and IMO should be removed from vaccines at the tradeoff of having to have vaccines that do not last as long.

    ----

    (b3) Harm-Causing Implementation of Vaccines -- Very Poor Manufacturing Practices Using Non-Human Tissue

    'Fear of the Invisible' by Janine Roberts gets into the very very bad manufacturing practices of vaccines -- Fear of the Invisible: Janine Roberts: 9780955917721: Amazon.com: Books

    The original vaccines were made from as-sterilized-as-possible human-sourced materials (like the scab of an actual smallpox patient). Today, you get a starter culture, and then culture it in a tissue medium of (more often than not) animal tissue, and pray that what you get is a product that contains the targeted pathogen, and is suited for human use.

    The implementation is usually horrible, and the filtering processes are impossible when we're dealing with pathogens like viri (Note: bacterial pathogens are usually easier to detect)

    A virus is so small, that it is almost impossible to detect even with modern technologies. We take it on faith that there was the virus that we wanted in the original starter culture, then we take it on faith that there is enough viral multiplication in the end product, and we take it on faith that the virus hasn't mutated in the presence of all that foreign tissue to now be something completely different and possibly harmful.

    And of course, there are going to be particles of random proteins and other material in that end product from the tissue culture, which of course can mess with you as well.

    This implementation is fraught with risk. Nobody can make an assessment of upside or downside when the implementation is so horribly uncertain. Some people will become stronger after such a vaccine, some with see no difference, and some will become worse, and some will die.


    ----

    IMO, if there is any battle to be fought, it is for safer vaccines, with more transparent and stringent manufacturing processes. If done so, vaccines become highly effective tools against infectious disease.

    If not, then only use them when your risk of infectious disease heavily outweighs the detriments to the rest of bodily function from these vaccines (which can possibly make you even more prone to disease).



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