From Someone Dead You Can't Take Living Organs

[Giraffe]

We all intuitively understand when a person is dead: the breathing stopped, the heart stopped beating and the body has become cold.

....

Here is a couple of things I came across reading about transplant medicine and listening to testimonials of parents who had agreed to organ donation after their son or daughter had been declared brain dead.

• Only a couple of hours after their son or daughter was hospitalized parents were asked if they agree with organ donation. The options they were given: (a) we stop life support, (b) we arrange for organ donation. (Important to understand: Once the hospital has declared the patient brain dead, the health insurance will not pay any further treatment.)
• The parents were not informed what organ procurement (aka harvesting) practically means.
• They were not informed what "brain dead" means. Requirements for diagnosis differ between countries, and some doctors say there is no such a thing as brain death: what we see is a coma. The parents knew nothing of this.
• The procedure to diagnose brain death includes that the patient is taken off pain killers and subjected to pain and stress.
• For me to be with my loved ones when they are dying is an important part of coming to accept their death, it is part of the grieving. To have your loved ones around when you die is consoling. All this is denied to organ donors and their loved ones.
• The patients who were declared brain dead looked like most other patients in ICU: they are sleeping, the body is warm, the heart is beating, they are mechanically ventilated ... To see them like this makes it harder for the parents to come to terms with their death, and often the announcement that the patient is dead (or brain dead) came very surprising.
• You can't get living organs from a person that has died. There would be blood clots that make the organs unusable. So during organ procurement surgery the organ donor is mechanically ventilated. The hands are fixated during the surgery. The surgeon cuts him open from throat to pubic bone. This is often followed by a raise in heart beat, blood pressure, sweating, reddening of the skin. These symptoms normally are considered as a sign of pain, but not in the so-called brain dead. (In Switzerland though they always give very heavy pain killers before they start.)
• The heart is the last organ that is taken out. Biological death occurs as the result of this surgery.
• Parents later beat themselves for having taken a decision without understanding the consequences. They think that they failed to protect their child. Several mothers (among them two nurses) described that they wanted to see their child again after organ procurement, and what they saw was a face that looked terrified.
• In cases where parents later thought "something doesn't add up" and demanded the hospital records it turned out that the diagnosis "brain dead" was questionable to say the least. And there are several reports of parents who refused to give in, and who successfully fought to get their child transferred to a different hospital. And guess what? These people are alive, and there were no lasting neurological issues.
• In some cases mother and father were not able to talk with each other about what has happened and how they feel. Many are traumatized for very many years.

......

"opting in policy" vs "opting out policy": In many countries you need to actively opt out if you decide not to donate your organs. In other countries (e.g. Germany, US) you need to opt in. Family members can be asked to take the decision for you if you have not declared what your wish is. If you are abroad the law of the country where you are is applicable.

.....


Here is an open letter in German:

Offener Brief über die dunkle Seite der Organspende

 

[ecstatichamster]

Chilling. Thank you. I had no idea.

 

[RealNeat]

yup f that

 

[S-VV]

Holy Sh*t, organ extraction from “brain dead” patients can be done WITHOUT anesthesia.

I didn’t know. ****...

 

[S-VV]

So lemme get this straight. The mode of action of volatile anesthetics, some of which are chemically inert, is not understood, but we obviously know they don’t need them because they show no cortical activity. Lol.

It’s vivisection.

 

[Regina]

We all intuitively understand when a person is dead: the breathing stopped, the heart stopped beating and the body has become cold.

....

Here is a couple of things I came across reading about transplant medicine and listening to testimonials of parents who had agreed to organ donation after their son or daughter had been declared brain dead.

• Only a couple of hours after their son or daughter was hospitalized parents were asked if they agree with organ donation. The options they were given: (a) we stop life support, (b) we arrange for organ donation. (Important to understand: Once the hospital has declared the patient brain dead, the health insurance will not pay any further treatment.)
• The parents were not informed what organ procurement (aka harvesting) practically means.
• They were not informed what "brain dead" means. Requirements for diagnosis differ between countries, and some doctors say there is no such a thing as brain death: what we see is a coma. The parents knew nothing of this.
• The procedure to diagnose brain death includes that the patient is taken off pain killers and subjected to pain and stress.
• For me to be with my loved ones when they are dying is an important part of coming to accept their death, it is part of the grieving. To have your loved ones around when you die is consoling. All this is denied to organ donors and their loved ones.
• The patients who were declared brain dead looked like most other patients in ICU: they are sleeping, the body is warm, the heart is beating, they are mechanically ventilated ... To see them like this makes it harder for the parents to come to terms with their death, and often the announcement that the patient is dead (or brain dead) came very surprising.
• You can't get living organs from a person that has died. There would be blood clots that make the organs unusable. So during organ procurement surgery the organ donor is mechanically ventilated. The hands are fixated during the surgery. The surgeon cuts him open from throat to pubic bone. This is often followed by a raise in heart beat, blood pressure, sweating, reddening of the skin. These symptoms normally are considered as a sign of pain, but not in the so-called brain dead. (In Switzerland though they always give very heavy pain killers before they start.)
• The heart is the last organ that is taken out. Biological death occurs as the result of this surgery.
• Parents later beat themselves for having taken a decision without understanding the consequences. They think that they failed to protect their child. Several mothers (among them two nurses) described that they wanted to see their child again after organ procurement, and what they saw was a face that looked terrified.
• In cases where parents later thought "something doesn't add up" and demanded the hospital records it turned out that the diagnosis "brain dead" was questionable to say the least. And there are several reports of parents who refused to give in, and who successfully fought to get their child transferred to a different hospital. And guess what? These people are alive, and there were no lasting neurological issues.
• In some cases mother and father were not able to talk with each other about what has happened and how they feel. Many are traumatized for very many years.

......

"opting in policy" vs "opting out policy": In many countries you need to actively opt out if you decide not to donate your organs. In other countries (e.g. Germany, US) you need to opt in. Family members can be asked to take the decision for you if you have not declared what your wish is. If you are abroad the law of the country where you are is applicable.

.....


Here is an open letter in German:

Offener Brief über die dunkle Seite der Organspende

 

[burtlancast]

If all this is true, then a humane option would be to give a general anesthetic just like during normal surgery, instead of "heavy pain killers".

 

[yerrag]

Thanks for letting us know.

Who wants to go through that suffering for a stranger?

Worse, who wants to die in pain so that a stranger can live?

The system knows not many would, so it's not made known.

The system is inhumane.

 

[Regina]

Thanks for letting us know.

Who wants to go through that suffering for a stranger?

Worse, who wants to die in pain so that a stranger can live?

The system knows not many would, so it's not made known.

The system is inhumane.

It's about the sense of agency. The dupe.
There is no honor among thieves.

But I've known people who, in their full agency and sovereignty, chose to give a kidney to someone in need.

I loathe the current narrative among the elites that project onto us plebs disgraceful selfishness. All of their systems seek to annihilate our sense of honor and fellowship.

 

[Kratos]

I remember last year this topic was making the rounds on the internet so many doctors had to come out and say it isn’t true because they were afraid people would opt out of being an organ donor. It’s some scary stuff that they would just let you die instead of saving you.

 

[yerrag]

I remember last year this topic was making the rounds on the internet so many doctors had to come out and say it isn’t true because they were afraid people would opt out of being an organ donor. It’s some scary stuff that they would just let you die instead of saving you.

Yet it's hard for me to take a doctor's word at face value. They are sure to repeat official statements, not necessarily true but certainly to keep their cushy position in the hierarchy - a chair in a university, a well-paying position in the bureaucracy, or a clinic in a hospital complex.

Many doctors commit suicide because there is no meaning in having to live a lie, and to keep lying, and if not lying, they are in denial. Constantly bringing suffering and death to their patients must weigh heavily on them.

 

[Giraffe]

But I've known people who, in their full agency and sovereignty, chose to give a kidney to someone in need.

I have come about testimonials of people that have donated a kidney.

It seems that it is not unusual that perfectly healthy people later suffer from fatigue and can't do their job any longer. Many develop high blood pressure within a few years. One woman who had donated a kidney to her husband said that she experienced medical complications and needed hospitalization a couple of times, but neither her health insurance nor the one of her husband wanted to pay, and you can imagine that the couple did not earn much money at that time. (After a s***storm from the press her health insurance and the hospital agreed to give in).

These people are angry that the downsides are not discussed openly. They feel that they were badly informed when they took their decision. And since the perception in the public is that this is a low risk surgery with a low risk of long-term health implications unfair expectations are promoted: You have to donate if you are a match! It's altruistic!


The guy here is still healthy, but regrets his decision:

At 18 years old, he donated a kidney. Now, he regrets it.

As a medical student and soon-to-be physician, I’ve come to better understand the imperfections in the idea of informed consent. We work with the data we have, and patients aren’t always told that it may not be that solid. At the time of my surgery, I thought the system was designed to protect me as a donor. Yet, now, more than eight years later, I am angry that I was never fully informed of the lack of research or the unknown long-term health implications for me.

 

[Giraffe]

Can We Handle the Truth? Legal Fictions in the Determination of Death

One mother mentioned that this article was an eye-opener for her. Unfortunately I do not have access to the full text.

The determination of death has been modified from the old way of understanding death as occurring when a person stops breathing, her heart stops beating, and she is cold to the touch. Today, physicians determine death by relying on a diagnosis of total brain failure or by waiting a short while after circulation stops. Evidence has emerged that the conceptual bases for these approaches to determining death are fundamentally flawed and depart substantially from our biological and common-sense understandings of death. We argue that the current approach to determining death consists of two different types of unacknowledged legal fictions. These legal fictions were developed for practices that are largely ethically legitimate but need to be reconciled with the law. However, the considerable debate over the determination of death in the medical and scientific literature has not informed the public of the fact that our current determinations of death do not adequately establish that a person has died.

 

[charlie]

Truly frightening. Not sure how else to express what I just read.

 

[Vinny]

Modern humans have gone completely mad.

 

[peateats1]

This was horrifying to read but I'm glad to know the information. I had no idea

 

[peateats1]

Modern humans have gone completely mad.

Absolutely agree

 

[boris]

I've known about this, but it still gave me a cold sweat reading it.

 

[JessFields]

I learned recently in a medical ethics class that the legal definition of "death" has been progressively changing.

I came across this guy in my research

Unfortunately, I checked off the box to be an organ donor years ago at the DMV. Does anyone know how to revoke that?

 

[Blossom]

I learned recently in a medical ethics class that the legal definition of "death" has been progressively changing.

I came across this guy in my research

Unfortunately, I checked off the box to be an organ donor years ago at the DMV. Does anyone know how to revoke that?

I checked it off too and need to figure out how to get it changed as well. A couple months ago a coworker told me about a horrible experience when one of his patients who was an organ donor was awake, alert and crying when the procurement team came to harvest her organs. He stayed in the room holding her hand and was yelling at them to leave because she wasn’t dead. He was forcibly taken out of the room by sheriff’s deputies at the hospital. He was terribly traumatized by the situation.