Friend has Kidney Stones at this very moment!

[Ben]

He is currently drinking as much water as possible to flush them out. Sounds like a bad idea to me since it increases prolactin. He had kidney stones for 20 years, and he's having an attack.

Is drinking a lot of water necessary or good?

Would adding baking soda to the water worsen his condition?

Is aspirin a good idea, would it reduce pain?

Would a high dose of vitamin K help acutely? How about vitamin D?

How effective would cranberry juice be?

 

[Blossom]

If you look on earthclinic.com the olive oil and vinegar remedy got 243 thumbs up. There are other suggestions too. I know the amount of olive oil isn't strictly Peaty but this might be a situation where there would be more benefit than harm? You could look on earthclinic and see all the various remedies suggested and maybe find one your friend would be willing to try. I learned about earthclinic from one of Mittir's posts.

 

[charlie]

I have seen Co2 be effective, bag breathing will relax the ducts. Carbonated drink.

 

[4peatssake]

I would try this home remedy.

Apple Cider Vinegar and Baking Soda: ACV is one of the best internal cleansers available. It is also one of best kidney flushers in existence! Baking soda is also a very potent cure for kidney stones as it alkalizes the body quickly and removes acid. Remember this... kidney stones can only occur in an acidic environment. Baking soda removes the acid and so removes kidney stones!

Mix up 2 tablespoons of apple cider vinegar and 1/2 a teaspoon of baking soda in a large glass of water and drink 3 times a day (be aware of the initial "fizz" that occurs). Also, when it comes to purchasing apple cider vinegar in the liquid or tablet forms, make sure you only ever buy reputable organic ACV which still contains the “mother” apple.

- See more at: http://www.life-saving-naturalcures-and ... 1qGhF.dpuf

 

[tara]

I think kidney stones can be made of different things, and depending on what they are made of, different prevention and treatment may apply. As a non-expert:

Stones made from uric acid are apparently common. They happen if the concentration of uric acid is high and the urine pH is low. In this case, increasing UpH and increasing fluids may help prevent them. To what extent they can be dissolved by such means once they have established and grown large I don't know.

From wikipedia:
"Supersaturation of the urine with respect to a calculogenic compound is pH-dependent. For example, at a pH of 7.0, the solubility of uric acid in urine is 158 mg/100 ml. Reducing the pH to 5.0 decreases the solubility of uric acid to less than 8 mg/100 ml. The formation of uric acid stones requires a combination of hyperuricosuria (high urine uric acid levels) and low urine pH; hyperuricosuria alone is not associated with uric acid stone formation if the urine pH is alkaline.[29] Supersaturation of the urine is a necessary, but not a sufficient, condition for the development of any urinary calculus.[13] Supersaturation is likely the underlying cause of uric acid and cystine stones, but calcium-based stones (especially calcium oxalate stones) may have a more complex etiology.[30]"

Some stones are made of various calcium compounds, which have different causes.
From wikipedia:
"Sufficient dietary intake of magnesium and citrate inhibits the formation of calcium oxalate and calcium phosphate stones; in addition, magnesium and citrate operate synergistically to inhibit kidney stones. Magnesium's efficacy in subduing stone formation and growth is dose-dependent.[8][22][32]"

There are other kinds too.

I think measuring urine pH a few times would give useful information about the conditions in which the stones are forming. If it is averaging low (eg below 6.2), then that might be part of the explanation. In this case, I'd suggest modifying diet to get the UpH into a better range (Peat has suggested ideal is about 6.3-6.7; Reams said ideal is 6.4, healing range is 6.2 - 6.8). My guess would be foods containing alkaline minerals (incl magnesium), lemon juice (but start with a small amount - it can stir things up powerfully), possibly baking soda.

The recommendation for fluids seemed to be to drink enough to pee about 2l/day to reduce the risk of supersaturation. Whether this would be a problem or not probably depends on your friends metabolic state.

 

[Ben]

Thanks people. I gave him these recommendations and I'll see if they work (if he tries them out).

 

[tara]

Thanks people. I gave him these recommendations and I'll see if they work (if he tries them out).

Hmm. Looks like uric acid stones are only about 5-10% and calcium compounds, particularly calcium oxalate, are far more common. Wikipedia is either confused itself or I'm confused, because it says calcium oxalate stones tend to precipitate when the urine is alkaline (>5.5). To me, 5.5 is still on the acid side not only of neutral, but also of the optimal slightly acidic state. So I'm not sure what to make of this, and not following it up now, but if the stones are calcium oxalate, making the urine more alkaline eg with baking soda might not help at all, and maybe make it worse. Reducing dietary oxalates might help, though that is not necessarily the only source of oxalate.
So, does your friend have historical records of what his previous stones were made of?

 

[Ben]

They are probably calcium stones. It's worth stating that he has hypothyroidism and is claiming that B vitamins cure it for him. I gave him some T3, but he didn't have an outstanding effect.

 

[tara]

They are probably calcium stones. It's worth stating that he has hypothyroidism and is claiming that B vitamins cure it for him. I gave him some T3, but he didn't have an outstanding effect.

Does he know this, or are you going by statistical likelihood?

If it were me, I'd:
- make an effort to track UpH for a few days, and if it's clearly tending too high or too low, address that with diet and/or other methods
- cut back on the kinds of vegetables and nuts that tend to have a lot of oxalate - i don't know them all, but I think spinach and chard are high.
- make sure I was getting at least 400mg magnesium in a form that I could mostly absorb
- drink enough to not have highly concentrated pee, but not so much that it's clear

No doubt there are other tactics.

 

[Ben]

I gave him some T3 to try, and he did, but didn't say anything, and when I asked him, he didn't seem excited about the effects he got. Not sure if B vitamins actually have such a significant effect on his thyroid.

Currently, he is broke and can't afford remedies, and doesn't want my help, so thanks, I've done everything I could so far. He'll just put up with bad kidney stones in the morning, oh well.

 

[natedawggh]

Would a high dose of vitamin K help acutely?

YES. K2 is the only vitamin I've read about that specifically functions in the dispersal and control of calcium. I myself stopped having lower back pain (my doctor suggested it was kidney stones) within a week of taking it. Many brands have silica, so look for one without toxic additives.

The other things listed would relieve symptoms but not necessarily fix the calcium deposition, which K2 will do (not K1, but K2).

 

[4peatssake]

I would check for magnesium deficiency as well. Espom salts are cheap.
Kale broth would help with Vit K as it's expensive to supplement.

Peat's Calcium and Disease article is worth reading as well.

Calcium and Disease: Hypertension, organ calcification, & shock, vs. respiratory energy

 

[Henry]

If you look on earthclinic.com the olive oil and vinegar remedy got 243 thumbs up. There are other suggestions too. I know the amount of olive oil isn't strictly Peaty but this might be a situation where there would be more benefit than harm? You could look on earthclinic and see all the various remedies suggested and maybe find one your friend would be willing to try. I learned about earthclinic from one of Mittir's posts.

This method is a scam. I´m surprised such placebo methods are recommended here.

"We conclude, therefore, that these green “stones” resulted from the action of gastric lipases on the simple and mixed triacylglycerols that make up olive oil, yielding long chain carboxylic acids (mainly oleic acid). This process was followed by saponification into large insoluble micelles of potassium carboxylates (lemon juice contains a high concentration of potassium) or “soap stones”."

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lance ... 8/fulltext

 

[Blossom]

If you look on earthclinic.com the olive oil and vinegar remedy got 243 thumbs up. There are other suggestions too. I know the amount of olive oil isn't strictly Peaty but this might be a situation where there would be more benefit than harm? You could look on earthclinic and see all the various remedies suggested and maybe find one your friend would be willing to try. I learned about earthclinic from one of Mittir's posts.

This method is a scam. I´m surprised such placebo methods are recommended here.

"We conclude, therefore, that these green “stones” resulted from the action of gastric lipases on the simple and mixed triacylglycerols that make up olive oil, yielding long chain carboxylic acids (mainly oleic acid). This process was followed by saponification into large insoluble micelles of potassium carboxylates (lemon juice contains a high concentration of potassium) or “soap stones”."

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lance ... 8/fulltext

Thanks for pointing that out Henry.