Frequent urination troubleshooting, low-volume urination only at night - What could be the cause?

[redsun]

I finally am lost and am still losing weight, finally am able to slowly tolerate more NDT, and finally pulse is getting better.


The one thing that is bothering me reeeeeaaaaallllllllllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy much is waking up 4 times at night to void a small amount of urine.

The causes i have excluded are:

1. Stress response (i use to get these and urinate a lot whenever I woke up in the past, and i used to get these during the day too but not anymore) due to low glycogen, I eat more than 3k calories and have a big meal before I sleep (potatoes/cheese) and at night i have a big sip of maple syrup to keep the stores up lol.

2. Acidic urine, i don't have this problem anymore and when i do for example, from magnesium chloride, the bladder is weak as hell until i drop whatever it was too acidic that would impair my bladder function. Kiwis/limes did do this too.


Now i will be trying to try so fix the endotoxin theory that might be inflaming the gut and bladder, charcoal and coconut oil and carrots.

Its pretty clear in my opinion what's going on here. No you don't have to stop all your supplements but its a particular few that are probably behind it.

Your bladder is spontaneously contracting when its not supposed to, hence you wake up with the urge to void but with very little urine. This is probably due to too high acetylcholine activity which is what makes your bladder spontaneously contract (this is what produces the feeling of needing to void). You are taking B complex and mega doses of B1 and B3 as well as TMG, a methyl donor that can be used to produce choline. I also recall in the past you posted somewhere that you eat 6 eggs a day. If you eat a lot of potatoes, this will reduce acetylcholine breakdown making this problem even worse. You mentioned this started before your recent addition of B1, B3, and TMG but these supplements are still contributing. Problem is the same and you keep adding stuff on top and unknowingly compounding the problem.

Acetylcholine is synthesized from combining acetyl-CoA and choline together. When you take a ton of Bs, you will dramatically raise acetyl-CoA synthesis and because you eat a lot of dietary choline from 6 eggs + whatever other foods you eat and potentially solanine from potatoes if you eat a lot of those, you ended up in this situation because you have so much raw material to make Ach.

No one needs large doses of B vitamins and you don't even need to supplement any B vitamins to begin with in most situation especially if you eat a lot of whole foods. Short period of supplementation may sometimes be beneficial for some people. And obviously if you have shown to be deficient it is beneficial and needed.

Taking them constantly is just going to cause problems eventually. I suggest you stop all Bs and TMG, and to perhaps for now to hasten recovery, stick to 2-3 eggs a day. You may be able to go back to 6 eggs later on but you need to experiment and be mindful. We generally can tolerate large amounts of choline as this has always been present in human diets but the amount of B vitamins that you can now get from supplements does not exist in these quantities from natural foods. Also natural foods contain anticholinergic nutrients such as retinol, iodine, selenium, and amino acids which indirectly reduce acetylcholine. Its very, very difficult to get too high acetylcholine from foods alone but as soon as you add megadoses of Bs, methyl donors to an already high choline diet, it becomes easier.

It takes a while for these things to clear your system, so give it at least a few days to a week and you should be fine.

 

[yerrag]

2. Acidic urine, i don't have this problem anymore and when i do for example, from magnesium chloride, the bladder is weak as hell until i drop whatever it was too acidic that would impair my bladder function. Kiwis/limes did do this too.

Its pretty clear in my opinion what's going on here. No you don't have to stop all your supplements but its a particular few that are probably behind it.

Your bladder is spontaneously contracting when its not supposed to, hence you wake up with the urge to void but with very little urine. This is probably due to too high acetylcholine activity which is what makes your bladder spontaneously contract (this is what produces the feeling of needing to void). You are taking B complex and mega doses of B1 and B3 as well as TMG, a methyl donor that can be used to produce choline. I also recall in the past you posted somewhere that you eat 6 eggs a day. If you eat a lot of potatoes, this will reduce acetylcholine breakdown making this problem even worse. You mentioned this started before your recent addition of B1, B3, and TMG but these supplements are still contributing. Problem is the same and you keep adding stuff on top and unknowingly compounding the problem.

Acetylcholine is synthesized from combining acetyl-CoA and choline together. When you take a ton of Bs, you will dramatically raise acetyl-CoA synthesis and because you eat a lot of dietary choline from 6 eggs + whatever other foods you eat and potentially solanine from potatoes if you eat a lot of those, you ended up in this situation because you have so much raw material to make Ach.

No one needs large doses of B vitamins and you don't even need to supplement any B vitamins to begin with in most situation especially if you eat a lot of whole foods. Short period of supplementation may sometimes be beneficial for some people. And obviously if you have shown to be deficient it is beneficial and needed.

Taking them constantly is just going to cause problems eventually. I suggest you stop all Bs and TMG, and to perhaps for now to hasten recovery, stick to 2-3 eggs a day. You may be able to go back to 6 eggs later on but you need to experiment and be mindful. We generally can tolerate large amounts of choline as this has always been present in human diets but the amount of B vitamins that you can now get from supplements does not exist in these quantities from natural foods. Also natural foods contain anticholinergic nutrients such as retinol, iodine, selenium, and amino acids which indirectly reduce acetylcholine. Its very, very difficult to get too high acetylcholine from foods alone but as soon as you add megadoses of Bs, methyl donors to an already high choline diet, it becomes easier.

It takes a while for these things to clear your system, so give it at least a few days to a week and you should be fine.

I like these well thought and well written explanations. Thanks redsun. I may also stand to benefit from your advice.

 

[FitnessMike]

Its pretty clear in my opinion what's going on here. No you don't have to stop all your supplements but its a particular few that are probably behind it.

Your bladder is spontaneously contracting when its not supposed to, hence you wake up with the urge to void but with very little urine. This is probably due to too high acetylcholine activity which is what makes your bladder spontaneously contract (this is what produces the feeling of needing to void). You are taking B complex and mega doses of B1 and B3 as well as TMG, a methyl donor that can be used to produce choline. I also recall in the past you posted somewhere that you eat 6 eggs a day. If you eat a lot of potatoes, this will reduce acetylcholine breakdown making this problem even worse. You mentioned this started before your recent addition of B1, B3, and TMG but these supplements are still contributing. Problem is the same and you keep adding stuff on top and unknowingly compounding the problem.

Acetylcholine is synthesized from combining acetyl-CoA and choline together. When you take a ton of Bs, you will dramatically raise acetyl-CoA synthesis and because you eat a lot of dietary choline from 6 eggs + whatever other foods you eat and potentially solanine from potatoes if you eat a lot of those, you ended up in this situation because you have so much raw material to make Ach.

No one needs large doses of B vitamins and you don't even need to supplement any B vitamins to begin with in most situation especially if you eat a lot of whole foods. Short period of supplementation may sometimes be beneficial for some people. And obviously if you have shown to be deficient it is beneficial and needed.

Taking them constantly is just going to cause problems eventually. I suggest you stop all Bs and TMG, and to perhaps for now to hasten recovery, stick to 2-3 eggs a day. You may be able to go back to 6 eggs later on but you need to experiment and be mindful. We generally can tolerate large amounts of choline as this has always been present in human diets but the amount of B vitamins that you can now get from supplements does not exist in these quantities from natural foods. Also natural foods contain anticholinergic nutrients such as retinol, iodine, selenium, and amino acids which indirectly reduce acetylcholine. Its very, very difficult to get too high acetylcholine from foods alone but as soon as you add megadoses of Bs, methyl donors to an already high choline diet, it becomes easier.

It takes a while for these things to clear your system, so give it at least a few days to a week and you should be fine.

Thanks for the effort.

You might be acrually right, i was going through my old thread where i mentioned same issue with bladder, and my protocol was this

"""i take 3g niacinamide,4g inosine, 2g aspirin and other."""

I wasnt taking inosine or aspirin now, that would mean that it must be b3 or b1.

I will stick to only B complex now and see if there are improvements in coming days, i think it was better already this night.

 

[TheCodez]

I eat a pound of beef per day and get up to void 4 to 6 times per night. I've noticed that on rare days when I skip having any beef, I only get up once per night.

 

[FitnessMike]

UPDATE:

It got a bit better after stopping megadoses of B.

The next things to explore are:

1) stopping my B complex, even tho I'm reluctant as I know how important are they in energy production.....

2)tackling endotoxins with - carrots, activated charcoal, coconut oil, and oregano oil daily

3) stopping vit D3.

 

[FitnessMike]

Just to give you an idea how does my nights look like, you can easily see i wake up 4 times roughly every 2 hours, not so long time ago i was waking up roughly every 3 hours, which is 2 sleep cycles.

 

[FitnessMike]

Its pretty clear in my opinion what's going on here. No you don't have to stop all your supplements but its a particular few that are probably behind it.

Your bladder is spontaneously contracting when its not supposed to, hence you wake up with the urge to void but with very little urine. This is probably due to too high acetylcholine activity which is what makes your bladder spontaneously contract (this is what produces the feeling of needing to void). You are taking B complex and mega doses of B1 and B3 as well as TMG, a methyl donor that can be used to produce choline. I also recall in the past you posted somewhere that you eat 6 eggs a day. If you eat a lot of potatoes, this will reduce acetylcholine breakdown making this problem even worse. You mentioned this started before your recent addition of B1, B3, and TMG but these supplements are still contributing. Problem is the same and you keep adding stuff on top and unknowingly compounding the problem.

Acetylcholine is synthesized from combining acetyl-CoA and choline together. When you take a ton of Bs, you will dramatically raise acetyl-CoA synthesis and because you eat a lot of dietary choline from 6 eggs + whatever other foods you eat and potentially solanine from potatoes if you eat a lot of those, you ended up in this situation because you have so much raw material to make Ach.

No one needs large doses of B vitamins and you don't even need to supplement any B vitamins to begin with in most situation especially if you eat a lot of whole foods. Short period of supplementation may sometimes be beneficial for some people. And obviously if you have shown to be deficient it is beneficial and needed.

Taking them constantly is just going to cause problems eventually. I suggest you stop all Bs and TMG, and to perhaps for now to hasten recovery, stick to 2-3 eggs a day. You may be able to go back to 6 eggs later on but you need to experiment and be mindful. We generally can tolerate large amounts of choline as this has always been present in human diets but the amount of B vitamins that you can now get from supplements does not exist in these quantities from natural foods. Also natural foods contain anticholinergic nutrients such as retinol, iodine, selenium, and amino acids which indirectly reduce acetylcholine. Its very, very difficult to get too high acetylcholine from foods alone but as soon as you add megadoses of Bs, methyl donors to an already high choline diet, it becomes easier.

It takes a while for these things to clear your system, so give it at least a few days to a week and you should be fine.

Hi @redsun.

Seems that after stopping all B vitamins my bladder and onset insomnia normalised as well as blocked nose.

The problem is that my resting pulse went back to where it was 55-60 during the day, and blood test results shows that they started acumulating to too high levels (again) on same dose of 2 grains, quite sure due to increased rt3 (will confirm soon im waiting for results).

Its clear to me now that higher doses of b1 and b3, or both of them were contributing to me being able to tolerate supplemental thyroid hormones.

B complex with 100mg b3/b1 doesnt seem to be effective in that regard.

Now i need to find out how to take them to minimise side effects aka weak bladder and onset insomnia.

I think i will start with 500mg b3 and 100mg b1 + 500mg of TMG to combat insomnia (worked before).

I will decrease egg yolks to 2 now as well.

Could it be that higher doses on b3 helping as its upregulate enzyme pyruvate dehydrogenase that is often downregulated in hypothyroidism ?

NAD/NADH Ratio - The One Metabolic Cause To Rule Them All

If you're congested, NADH will accumulate and the ratio will decrease, contrary to what would happen if there was a proper flow. And it's about the proportion but amounts as well. If the problem isn't a deficiency of NAD, but something clogging up the subsequent reactions, increasing NAD can...

raypeatforum.com

One thing that i got so excited about last christmas, was that my resting pulse was getting to 75-80 and that was from b3, then and there i thought that im having breakthru with tolerating my NDT.

 

[Callmestar]

Take saw palmetto.

I have extensive threads about frequent urination on here if of use you, although yours seems more of a lower volume issue, which mine is not.

 

[redsun]

Hi @redsun.

Seems that after stopping all B vitamins my bladder and onset insomnia normalised as well as blocked nose.

The problem is that my resting pulse went back to where it was 55-60 during the day, and blood test results shows that they started acumulating to too high levels (again) on same dose of 2 grains, quite sure due to increased rt3 (will confirm soon im waiting for results).

Its clear to me now that higher doses of b1 and b3, or both of them were contributing to me being able to tolerate supplemental thyroid hormones.

B complex with 100mg b3/b1 doesnt seem to be effective in that regard.

Now i need to find out how to take them to minimise side effects aka weak bladder and onset insomnia.

I think i will start with 500mg b3 and 100mg b1 + 500mg of TMG to combat insomnia (worked before).

I will decrease egg yolks to 2 now as well.

Could it be that higher doses on b3 helping as its upregulate enzyme pyruvate dehydrogenase that is often downregulated in hypothyroidism ?

NAD/NADH Ratio - The One Metabolic Cause To Rule Them All

If you're congested, NADH will accumulate and the ratio will decrease, contrary to what would happen if there was a proper flow. And it's about the proportion but amounts as well. If the problem isn't a deficiency of NAD, but something clogging up the subsequent reactions, increasing NAD can...

raypeatforum.com

One thing that i got so excited about last christmas, was that my resting pulse was getting to 75-80 and that was from b3, then and there i thought that im having breakthru with tolerating my NDT.

B3 uses methyl groups to be excreted. This will lead to reduced deactivation of catecholamines (noradrenaline and adrenaline) for a short amount of time and this effect gets stronger the higher the dose. More NE and E in the blood will raise heart rate.

I would look into testing your electrolyte levels and see if they are all normal.

Lowish heart rate can be caused by certain electrolyte imbalances such as hypercalcemia. But the other issue is excessive cholinergic input can keep heart rate low, so less dietary choline especially if you usually have high intake of choline could help raise heart rate. There are many factors that affect heart rate though.

 

[calendargirls]

Have you tried wearing earplugs to bed? Comfortable ones. It takes some searching to find the right kind; I prefer the single use foam earplugs made for smaller ear canals. If you get uncomfortable ones you're likely to pull them out when half asleep without noticing.

I had the same problem for a while due to stress hormones; once I got that under control I still found that often I was just waking up because of sound and just automatically went to pee out of habit. Now with the earplugs, assuming a regular day without much stress, I'll wake once and typically well after the ~3 am window.

 

[FitnessMike]

B3 uses methyl groups to be excreted. This will lead to reduced deactivation of catecholamines (noradrenaline and adrenaline) for a short amount of time and this effect gets stronger the higher the dose. More NE and E in the blood will raise heart rate.

I would look into testing your electrolyte levels and see if they are all normal.

Lowish heart rate can be caused by certain electrolyte imbalances such as hypercalcemia. But the other issue is excessive cholinergic input can keep heart rate low, so less dietary choline especially if you usually have high intake of choline could help raise heart rate. There are many factors that affect heart rate though.

After reviewing Hans article about acetylcholine, it seems that i might be full of this stuff...

Dont really understand how, i only eat 4 rather small, but raw egg yolks, could raw be more potent or smth? i am very pro eggs because i swear by the cholines effect on liver heaths and that it enhances glycogen storage capacity.

I got many symptoms mentioned by Hans in the article... and it would explain why i get insomnia from creatine and taurine? and even b complex recently.

Could only 4 small yolks over a long time increase Acetylcholine so much? i don't think that eating any more foods rich in choline.

still, I will have to read this thoroughly, but still, I'm pretty sure that benefited from higher niacinamide doses in the past.

The high acetylcholine syndrome » TESTONATION

Could acetylcholine be the root of your mental or physical symptoms? Acetylcholine is the primary neurotransmitter of the parasympathetic nervous systems, but is also involved with the sympathetic nervous system, such as assisting with muscle contraction, vasodilation to the skin and sweating...

men-elite.com

 

[redsun]

After reviewing Hans article about acetylcholine, it seems that i might be full of this stuff...

Dont really understand how, i only eat 4 rather small, but raw egg yolks, could raw be more potent or smth? i am very pro eggs because i swear by the cholines effect on liver heaths and that it enhances glycogen storage capacity.

I got many symptoms mentioned by Hans in the article... and it would explain why i get insomnia from creatine and taurine? and even b complex recently.

Could only 4 small yolks over a long time increase Acetylcholine so much? i don't think that eating any more foods rich in choline.

still, I will have to read this thoroughly, but still, I'm pretty sure that benefited from higher niacinamide doses in the past.

The high acetylcholine syndrome » TESTONATION

Could acetylcholine be the root of your mental or physical symptoms? Acetylcholine is the primary neurotransmitter of the parasympathetic nervous systems, but is also involved with the sympathetic nervous system, such as assisting with muscle contraction, vasodilation to the skin and sweating...

men-elite.com

Just a few eggs and the choline you get from diet alone would not usually cause high acetylcholine. The issue is you have a history of taking tons of B vitamins. If you take a lot for a long period of time, they will still hang around in the blood for awhile. I explained earlier in this thread in detail how they do this. The other thing is B3 also keeps choline from leaving your brain basically. So more choline will stay in the brain which will then increase Ach synthesis:

Synergistic effect of nicotinamide and choline administration on extracellular choline levels in the brain - PubMed

Experimental studies indicate that the availability of free choline is a rate-limiting step for acetylcholine synthesis in central cholinergic neurons, especially when the release of acetylcholine is increased. In the present study we applied the microdialysis technique to measure the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

If you don't want Ach to get too high, you need to lay off the B-vitamins. Find other ways to work on your pulse. If you exercise a lot, it may stay low despite efforts to raise it.

 

[Hans]

I finally am lost and am still losing weight, finally am able to slowly tolerate more NDT, and finally pulse is getting better.


The one thing that is bothering me reeeeeaaaaallllllllllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy much is waking up 4 times at night to void a small amount of urine.

The causes i have excluded are:

1. Stress response (i use to get these and urinate a lot whenever I woke up in the past, and i used to get these during the day too but not anymore) due to low glycogen, I eat more than 3k calories and have a big meal before I sleep (potatoes/cheese) and at night i have a big sip of maple syrup to keep the stores up lol.

2. Acidic urine, i don't have this problem anymore and when i do for example, from magnesium chloride, the bladder is weak as hell until i drop whatever it was too acidic that would impair my bladder function. Kiwis/limes did do this too.


Now i will be trying to try so fix the endotoxin theory that might be inflaming the gut and bladder, charcoal and coconut oil and carrots.

Too much coffee/caffeine triggers this for me during the day. Excess sympathetic activation.

 

[crazypatriot]

Chris Masterjohn says copper is needed for antidiuretic hormone (and vitamin C)


View: https://youtu.be/Hr79eQiTdmk


View: https://youtu.be/s4YnWye64ZM

 

[FitnessMike]

Too much coffee/caffeine triggers this for me during the day. Excess sympathetic activation.

It had somehting to do with high doses of B3 because it normalised after stoping all Bs, most likely because of acetylcholine as per @Redsuns comments and your article where you mention that it might make bladder contract even with little urine in.

I have many symproms of high acetylcholine mentioned in your article.

Too bad that i cant make high dose b3 to work for me because assesing my lab results from past months when i was taking 1g of niacinamide, looks that i beter utilised hormones when i was taking b3, and pulse was so much better too, well i took 500mg this morning and i suspect very hard time sleeping.

But blocked nose due to histamine? and onset insomnia is too much.

 

[Validus]

It had somehting to do with high doses of B3 because it normalised after stoping all Bs, most likely because of acetylcholine as per @Redsuns comments and your article where you mention that it might make bladder contract even with little urine in.

I have many symproms of high acetylcholine mentioned in your article.

Too bad that i cant make high dose b3 to work for me because assesing my lab results from past months when i was taking 1g of niacinamide, looks that i beter utilised hormones when i was taking b3, and pulse was so much better too, well i took 500mg this morning and i suspect very hard time sleeping.

But blocked nose due to histamine? and onset insomnia is too much.

The increased nocturnal urination is something I've consistently dealt with for years, that gets worsened on days I lift. It's gotten slightly better after I intuitively dropped all B vitamins a few months ago, but it's persisted. I eat about 5-6 whole eggs per day, and based on the strength of this thread, yesterday I ate none and urination at night was improved again, but not perfect. I woke up thinking about what else I could be doing raising my acetylcholine and it occured to me that every morning instead of coffee, I drink a preworkout that contains 200 mg's of alpha-gpc along with what I think the offender has been for years, hupzerzine-a, a acetylcholinesterase inhibitor that has a half life of 10-14 hours.

Are you taking anything with huperzine-A in it? That's going to be the next thing I attempt to eliminate since I'd prefer to keep some whole eggs in my diet.

 

[FitnessMike]

The increased nocturnal urination is something I've consistently dealt with for years, that gets worsened on days I lift. It's gotten slightly better after I intuitively dropped all B vitamins a few months ago, but it's persisted. I eat about 5-6 whole eggs per day, and based on the strength of this thread, yesterday I ate none and urination at night was improved again, but not perfect. I woke up thinking about what else I could be doing raising my acetylcholine and it occured to me that every morning instead of coffee, I drink a preworkout that contains 200 mg's of alpha-gpc along with what I think the offender has been for years, hupzerzine-a, a acetylcholinesterase inhibitor that has a half life of 10-14 hours.

Are you taking anything with huperzine-A in it? That's going to be the next thing I attempt to eliminate since I'd prefer to keep some whole eggs in my diet.

I dont think im taking anything else than eggs that is cholinergis, and now i only take little doses of energin, just a few drops twice a day.

Urinating a night might be caused by many things though, but surely little doses of B complex must be helping metabolism.

I noticed that my bladder got better from epsom salt baths in the evenings, i do them every other day.

I sit now in the office with resting pulse of 50, thats not cool at all.

 

[FitnessMike]

The increased nocturnal urination is something I've consistently dealt with for years, that gets worsened on days I lift. It's gotten slightly better after I intuitively dropped all B vitamins a few months ago, but it's persisted. I eat about 5-6 whole eggs per day, and based on the strength of this thread, yesterday I ate none and urination at night was improved again, but not perfect. I woke up thinking about what else I could be doing raising my acetylcholine and it occured to me that every morning instead of coffee, I drink a preworkout that contains 200 mg's of alpha-gpc along with what I think the offender has been for years, hupzerzine-a, a acetylcholinesterase inhibitor that has a half life of 10-14 hours.

Are you taking anything with huperzine-A in it? That's going to be the next thing I attempt to eliminate since I'd prefer to keep some whole eggs in my diet.

Hi mate hows going so far?

 

[Validus]

@FitnessMike Honestly, I'm feeling better. I dropped a lot of supplements; more than I care to list, but can.

Currently, I'm only taking pregnanolone, sulbutiamine, curcumin, vitamin k and bcaa's with tyrosine. Before lifting, I take phosphatidic acid and then drink a whey & dextrose shake with phosphatidylserine and baking soda mixed in.

I am not natural. I take low dose test (only 8 mg's per day, only about 56 mg's per week) but a higher dose of masteron ( 200 mg's 3 times per week).

Lowering my test dose has helped me feel quite a bit calmer too I believe. Masteron being a DHT derivative makes me feel calmer as well.

 

[FitnessMike]

@FitnessMike Honestly, I'm feeling better. I dropped a lot of supplements; more than I care to list, but can.

Currently, I'm only taking pregnanolone, sulbutiamine, curcumin, vitamin k and bcaa's with tyrosine. Before lifting, I take phosphatidic acid and then drink a whey & dextrose shake with phosphatidylserine and baking soda mixed in.

I am not natural. I take low dose test (only 8 mg's per day, only about 56 mg's per week) but a higher dose of masteron ( 200 mg's 3 times per week).

Lowering my test dose has helped me feel quite a bit calmer too I believe. Masteron being a DHT derivative makes me feel calmer as well.

but how's with frequent urination? did you quit eggs?

Im going to be testing no eggs and no supplements, i believe i have high Acetylcholine which is causing a low pulse.