Free Fatty Acids (FFA) Suppression

[charlie]

burt, I am not sure of the dosage because I do not know how to measure it with the Unique E. I do not think it was very much though. 2 full squirts at most, rubbed into my wrists.

 

[charlie]

I took 100 mg of niacin yesterday, no sign of metabolism crash so far. Took another 100 mg this morning.

I really hope someone clarifies with Ray Peat regarding niacin vs niacinamide.

 

[kiran]

I think he says somewhere that niacin is estrogenic as opposed to niacinamide which is not.

 

[charlie]

I think he says somewhere that niacin is estrogenic as opposed to niacinamide which is not.

 

[Mittir]

RP commented in Josh Rubin " Serotonin and Endotoxin" that Nicotinic acid ( Nianic) and no-flush Niacin
increase release of serotonin and Prostaglandins . Increased serotonin and Prostaglandins together can
cause upset stomach. He said has never seen people having upset stomach with Niacinamide.
There are studies that show Niacinamide not increasing serotonin and Nicotinic acid
increasing serotonin. He also said to take OJ with Niacinamide .

 

[charlie]

Interesting, I did get a little bit of stomach upset yesterday. And today, my bowel movements are more frequent and producing more. Maybe from serotonin increase?

 

[burtlancast]

I took 100 mg of niacin yesterday, no sign of metabolism crash so far. Took another 100 mg this morning.

What do you mean when you say "crash my metabolism" ?
What are your symptoms ( for both Vit E and Niacinamide) ?

 

[charlie]

I took 100 mg of niacin yesterday, no sign of metabolism crash so far. Took another 100 mg this morning.

What do you mean when you say "crash my metabolism" ?
What are your symptoms ( for both Vit E and Niacinamide) ?

Temperature drops, digestion slows way down, get tired, and just an all around crappy feeling.

 

[burtlancast]

RP commented in Josh Rubin " Serotonin and Endotoxin" that Nicotinic acid ( Nianic) and no-flush Niacin
increase release of serotonin and Prostaglandins . Increased serotonin and Prostaglandins together can
cause upset stomach. He said has never seen people having upset stomach with Niacinamide.
There are studies that show Niacinamide not increasing serotonin and Nicotinic acid
increasing serotonin. He also said to take OJ with Niacinamide .

Do you have a direct link ?

I've never had stomach upsets with 3g niacin/ day.

 

[burtlancast]

Temperature drops, digestion slows way down, get tired, and just an all around crappy feeling.

That goes for both Vit E and niacinamide ?

 

[charlie]

Yes, both of them give the same results, lowered metabolism and all around bad feeling.

 

[charlie]

With the 2 doses I took of the niacin, it seems like I got a metabolism increase. But I am now going to hold off till we get clarification from Ray Peat to consider whether I want to move forward with dosing it. I might also consider another niacinamide source.

Here is a quote from a Ray Peat article, its not Ray Peats quote though, its from a study:

The chief constraints against niacin use have been flushing, gastrointestinal discomfort, and metabolic effects including hepatotoxicity.

Bold mine.

Source

 

[burtlancast]

The chief constraints against niacin use have been flushing, gastrointestinal discomfort, and metabolic effects including hepatotoxicity.

Very strange.
According to Hoffer, only niacinamide and hexaniacinate taken in many grams can cause hepatotoxicity, but never niacin, which is, according to him, the safer alternative.

 

[charlie]

I have ran across it in a couple places while researching today saying that niacin causes hepatotoxicity.

 

[burtlancast]

Straight from Hoffer's book "Niacin: the real story"

We do not know the toxic dose for humans since niacin has never killed anyone.
We think that monitoring long-term use of niacin is a good idea for anyone. It consists of having your doctor periodically (perhaps once or twice a year) check your liver function with a simple blood test. Correct interpretation of these monitoring tests is important.
Niacin is not liver toxic, but niacin therapy does increase liver function tests. This elevation means that the liver is active—it does not indicate an underlying liver pathology.

In his fifty-five years of experience with thousands of patients, Dr. Hoffer found that even 40,000 mg of niacin daily is not toxic. He estimated that over 200,000 mg per day is fatal. There is a built in safety valve with niacin: vomiting. Nausea will occur far in advance of any risk of fatality. Most of us would never exceed a few thousand mg daily, an amount that orthodox physicians frequently give patients to raise HDL. The safety margin is very large. For more than twenty-five years, data collected by the American Association of Poison Control Centers (AAPCC) confirms that there is not even one niacin-related death per year. (Download any Annual Report of the American Association of Poison Control Centers from 1983-2009 free of charge at http://www.aapcc.org/. The ''Vitamin" category is usually near the end of the report.)

 

[charlie]

burt, thanks for posting that.

So why when liver function tests are higher do the doctors say your liver is in tough shape, stressed out, or whatever they say? Not that I put much stock in doctors these days, obviously.

Maybe they tell us niacin is toxic because it is actually really good for us?

 

[burtlancast]

Here's some more from the book:

One reader wrote: "I am megadosing on niacin and my liver function tests are elevated. So now, my doctor has told me to stop taking niacin. Just how significant are these liver function changes, anyway?"
The myth that niacin causes liver damage was thoroughly debunked by Dr. William B. Parsons Jr. in his book on niacin and
cholesterol,"Cholesterol Control Without Diet! The Niacin Solution" The book discusses this problem extremely well. (A review can be found inJournal of Orthomolecular Medicine,Volume 14, 1999, 3rd quarter.) We consider Dr. Parsons to have been the most knowledgeable physician when it comes to treating patients with lipid problems using drugs and niacin. It is clear that he favors the use of niacin, not the drugs. He was the first physician outside of Saskatchewan, Canada to use niacin.

He instigated the first niacin cholesterol studies and with his associates corroborated the claims that niacin lowered cholesterol made by Dr. Alshul, Dr. Stephen, and Dr. Parsons points out that increases in liver function tests, unless they are very substantial, such as more than threefold, usually does not indicate liver pathology. There are many compounds that elevate liver enzymes—all the statins do, as do acetaminophen (Tylenol) and ibuprofen (Advil).

In rare cases, too much niacin causes nausea and vomiting, and if this persists because the niacin is not decreased or stopped then dehydration might become a factor. I have seen no cases of this in the past fifteen years. The main danger from taking niacin is not jaundice—it is that people will live longer.
Again we say: niacin is not liver toxic. That is a myth.


In 1950, deficiency of methyl groups was a popular topic. It was accepted that this deficiency caused fatty livers. Niacin and niacinamide are methyl acceptors, so it made sense to consider that too much vitamin B would cause fatty acid livers by producing a
methyl deficiency syndrome.

However, Professor R. Altschul at the University of Saskatchewan could not confirm these findings. In his animal studies he found that the vitamin had no effect on the fatty-acid levels in the liver.

The second observation, which is still routinely made, is that niacin will increase liver function tests in some patients. It is assumed, incorrectly, that elevated liver function tests always mean underlying liver pathology. Many other medicines cause the same elevations of liver function tests. Usually after a few days off niacin the test results become normal. Therefore it is best to stop the niacin for five days and then do the tests to avoid confusing liver damage with increased liver function activity.

I advise doctors that they should stop the niacin for at least five days before doing a liver function test. With real liver pathology, the results will not become normal in five days, but when they are elevated due to niacin, they will be normal within these five days. Liver enzymes are commonly elevated by many modern drugs.

I have seen no cases of jaundice in the past twenty years. But it is possible that the liver function test results may be raised due to methyl depletion. According to Dr. David Capuzzi, a specialist in diabetes, metabolism, and endocrinology in Philadelphia and one of the world's authorities on niacin and cholesterol, this can be prevented by giving patients 2,400 milligrams of lecithin divided twice daily. Betaine may also be effective for this purpose.
It is uncommon, but another possible side effect of high-dose niacin use is increased gastric acidity. This is probably because niacin stimulates the secretion of gastric juice.

 

[charlie]

Ok, but what about what Mittir posted about niacin increasing serotonin and Prostaglandins? Also, Kiran thinks Ray Peat said that it also is estrogenic.

Again, I do believe that we can be easily mislead and told niacin is toxic when in fact it's not. Just like when my doctor alluded to I could die if he prescribed me an NDT.

 

[burtlancast]

Ok, but what about what Mittir posted about niacin increasing serotonin and Prostaglandins? Also, Kiran thinks Ray Peat said that it also is estrogenic.

Again, I do believe that we can be easily mislead and told niacin is toxic when in fact it's not. Just like when my doctor alluded to I could die if he prescribed me an NDT.

Perhaps this will help;

[offtopic]It is believed that niacin causes a flush by a complicated mechanism which releases histamine, interferes in prostaglandin metabolism, may be related to serotonin mechanism,
and may involve the cholinergic system.

Histamine is clearly involved. The typical niacin flush is identical with the flush produced by an injection of histamine. It is dampened down, if not prevented entirely, by antihistamines and by some of the original tranquilizers such as chlorpromazine. The adaptation to niacin is readily explained by the reduction in histamine in the storage sites such as the mast cells.

When these are examined after a dose of histamine, these cells contain empty vesicles which contained the histamine and also heparinoids. If the next dose is spaced closely enough, there will have been no time for the storage sites to be refilled, and therefore less histamine will be available to be released. After there is complete adaptation to niacin, a rest of several days will start the flushing cycle again. This decrease in histamine has some advantage in reducing the effects of rapidly released histamine.

Dr. Edmond Boyle found that guinea pigs treated with niacin were not harmed by anaphylactic shock. Because the flush is relatively transient, it can not be involved in the lowering of cholesterol, which remains in effect as long as niacin is continued.
Prostaglandins appear to be involved. Thus, aspirin and indomethacinreduce the intensity of the flush.

Boyle found that niacin increased basophil leukocyte count. These white blood cells store histamine and heparin, and protect the body against microorganisms causing disease. We earlier implicated a histamine-glycosaminoglycan histaminase system as well as histamine in lipid absorption and redistribution. Boyle suggested that the improvement caused by niacin is much greater than can be explained by its effect on cholesterol. He thought it might be due to the release of histamine and to the eventual reduction in the intravascular "sludging" of blood cells."

Cheng et al. presented evidence that prostaglandins are involved in the niacin flush but
they admit "the flushing is not completely understood."
I am sorry the histamine idea was shelved, as I think there is powerful evidence that it too is involved in the flushing process. Probably all these systems are interrelated.[/offtopic]

 

[kiran]

I may have been wrong. Perhaps I misheard and it's serotonergic. hmm.