For Those That Have Groggy Mornings

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Wilfrid said:
Anyway the link above clearly proved that there is indeed an internal circadian rythm which plays a strong effect on hormonal secretion and homeostasis in animals and it sounds reasonable to think that similar mechanism is involved in humans too.
That is taking exogenous hormones, or any given drugs, at the wrong time of the day could pertube body's own regulating system...
The book «Rythms of life» give an interesting explanation about all those phenomena.

I feel like we must show our body the "down" state to give them a reference on which to build upon. Then we can expand the "up" portion of the day as much as we can, focusing on improving the elasticity of changes.
 

Wilfrid

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Such_Saturation said:
I feel like we must show our body the "down" state...then we can expand the "up" portion of the day as much as we can, focusing on improving the elasticity of changes.

^this. 100% agreed.
 

Wilfrid

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As for another example on the importance of the circadian rythm is the work of Robert Burns.

«Most in vivo basic research is performed on rodents with the hope that some of it will have a positive impact on human health. Some treatments effective in the mouse model have proven to be ineffective in man. Conversely, those found to be ineffective in mice never get the opportunity to be tested in man.

Man is a diurnally active-nocturnally resting animal. Mice and rats are exactly the opposite, i.e., nocturnally active-diurnally resting. Research commonly is performed by diurnally active humans working during the diurnal phase on rodents. This, however, is when the research subjects are in their resting phase, being nocturnally active animals. In a general sense, it is not logical to expect data obtained from resting animals to be transferable to active humans. A more logical transfer from mouse to man would be expected if the research was carried out during the rodent's active period (nocturnal phase): active to active (even resting to resting) transfers are more scientifically valid than resting to active or active to resting transfers. One way to avoid the common pitfall of obtaining data from resting animals (diurnal phase) is to perform the research during the rodent's nocturnal (active) phase. This means working at night or with the animals synchronized (takes 10–14 days) to a reversed 12:12 L:D (light:dark) cycle so that their nocturnal (active) period coincides with the diurnal period for the researcher. When this is done, one should work in low red light, which is not visible to rodents.

The following scenario indicates some of the problems associated with working on resting animals during their diurnal phase and transferring the data to the diurnally active human. The scenario presented is a general one, but it has its origin in the well-documented field of chronotoxicology/chronopharmacology (Reinberg, 1992). A chemical food additive is tested in a mouse model for carcinogenicity. The test is done when the susceptible biochemical event (e.g., rate of DNA synthesis) happens to be at its lowest (trough) activity, i.e., 1200 (mid-diurnal or resting phase). No cancers are produced. The data are accurate: exposure to the chemical at 1200 did not result in any cancers. The data are used to classify the chemical as non-carcinogenic and it is approved for use as food additive. However, if the same dosage of the same chemical had been tested at 2400 (mid-nocturnal or active phase), a time of maximal susceptibility of the biochemical event involved, 40% of the animals would have developed liver cancer and the compound would be classified as carcinogenic and unsafe. For human safety it becomes extremely important to test for carcinogenicity/toxicity of a compound when the mouse is at its most biochemically susceptible time (could be mid-night, a time of maximal DNA synthesis) to that compound, not when the mouse is at its most resistant time (could be noon, a time of minimal DNA synthesis). Only in this way would the carcinogenic/toxic potential of the compound be discovered. To test a food additive, which in reality is highly carcinogenic/toxic, during a specific point in the host's circadian system when the true carcinogenic/toxic potential of the compound is “hidden” by biological time is inappropriate, misleading, and dangerous.»

Quote from the link below:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 5(20000815)261:4%3C141::AID-AR3%3E3.0.CO;2-C/full

It sounds reasonable that the same scenario described above apply to any drugs (whatever is it) first tested on rodents and then transfered on humans.
Which, again, makes me futher question, like the post I made few months ago on: «How relevent are the studies made on rodents?», if there is enough credit to get from such studies and how they are truly transposable to us, humans.
 

north

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Maybe this is causing my bad state last 1 week period more than i realized.
I slept about 8h per night, but due to life, ive been getting sleep at 12:30 - 1:30am instead of about 10:30 - 11:30pm.
I know it affects a lot since eveytime ive felt the best its been linked to being able to fall asleep early.
Its like life 2.0 when sleeping early.
 

jyb

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Wilfrid said:
The test is done when the susceptible biochemical event (e.g., rate of DNA synthesis) happens to be at its lowest (trough) activity, i.e., 1200 (mid-diurnal or resting phase). No cancers are produced. The data are accurate: exposure to the chemical at 1200 did not result in any cancers.

I would have thought that it would cause more damange when corresponding to sleep time when metabolism is lower.
 
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I have been doing the hot showers and heavy clothing thing, and I get no muscle burning when I am at 98,6. However I get up at, say, 11AM and it won't go up until at least 5PM. Then i can go into fever territory by midnight which feels awesome, but it's impossible to fall asleep with a heart rate of ninety. So the cycle goes on. I have tried setting the alarm at 9AM and now I know what a diabetic must feel like.

It's really bad since we are in a gap between the last orange and the first melon/watermelon of the year... I have tried jamming down some four tablespoons of sugar with cream of tartar and B3, but it only helps for maybe half an hour. I think maybe it is being turned into ketones.
 

Wilfrid

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jyb said:
Wilfrid said:
The test is done when the susceptible biochemical event (e.g., rate of DNA synthesis) happens to be at its lowest (trough) activity, i.e., 1200 (mid-diurnal or resting phase). No cancers are produced. The data are accurate: exposure to the chemical at 1200 did not result in any cancers.

I would have thought that it would cause more damange when corresponding to sleep time when metabolism is lower.

I really think that it depends more on the circadian rythm rather than on metabolism.
The scientist I quoted above ( Robert Burns) was greatly influenced by Alain Reinberg, a french scientist who can be considered one of the "best" in the field of chronobiology and its various effects on human health.
I consider the work of Reinberg as much important as Ray's.
Take ,for example, the case of " Periactin" he did a wonderful job to indicate the best time of the day to take it in order to get the full benefit of it (ie a "small" dose last longer and, so, is more effective when taken in the morning rather than in the evening.)

http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v46/n ... 96661a.pdf

And so on with thyroid meds, corticosteroids, hormones substitutes, chemotherapy........
He wrote a book, in french, on the subject.

http://www.unitheque.com/Livre/medecine ... 2-hU2thiK0
 

jyb

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Wilfrid said:
I really think that it depends more on the circadian rythm rather than on metabolism.
The scientist I quoted above ( Robert Burns) was greatly influenced by Alain Reinberg, a french scientist who can be considered one of the "best" in the field of chronobiology and its various effects on human health.
I consider the work of Reinberg as much important as Ray's.
Take ,for example, the case of " Periactin" he did a wonderful job to indicate the best time of the day to take it in order to get the full benefit of it (ie a "small" dose last longer and, so, is more effective when taken in the morning rather than in the evening.)

Wilfrid, I love your posts.
 

Wilfrid

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jyb said:
Wilfrid said:
I really think that it depends more on the circadian rythm rather than on metabolism.
The scientist I quoted above ( Robert Burns) was greatly influenced by Alain Reinberg, a french scientist who can be considered one of the "best" in the field of chronobiology and its various effects on human health.
I consider the work of Reinberg as much important as Ray's.
Take ,for example, the case of " Periactin" he did a wonderful job to indicate the best time of the day to take it in order to get the full benefit of it (ie a "small" dose last longer and, so, is more effective when taken in the morning rather than in the evening.)

Wilfrid, I love your posts.

:thankyou
 

kiran

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It does make you somewhat sleepy though, so it might be still be preferable to take it at night. Groggy all day, not my idea of a good day.
 

jyb

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kiran said:
It does make you somewhat sleepy though, so it might be still be preferable to take it at night. Groggy all day, not my idea of a good day.

In my experience, that effect vanished after a while even for day time. Even a large dose at bedtime, it's rather subtle now, whereas initially it would put me asleep for a long time. I've been experimenting with cypro for months and only recently tried morning and day time, so I don't know how long it took to get there.
 

Wilfrid

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kiran said:
It does make you somewhat sleepy though, so it might be still be preferable to take it at night. Groggy all day, not my idea of a good day.

Hi Kiran,

Do you have this sleepy feeling even if you take very small dose, like 1mg?
I got some advices from Ray regarding the cyproheptadine stuff.
He told me to start with only 1mg and to watch carefully the effect that I get from it.
I think that he usually recommends higher doses for people with very serious health problems ( like if one have cancer, as he considers anti-cholinergics drugs very effective against metastasis, if you google Claire Magnon, a biologist, and cancer you will have access to an interesting study about that.)
Each time I consulted Ray for any advice regarding thyroid/drugs/supplements he always said to start with a small dose and then to adjust it according to my body reaction. And I would like to add that in case of "high" dose supp to put those on skin rather than by mouth, but his advice has probably more to do with any potential intestinal irritation from the supp rather than from the dosage by itself, though.
And I'm very careful with the cypro because if we all know, thanks to Ray, that free plasma serotonin (f5HT) is detrimental to health, it's not the case for platelet serotonin (p5HT).
And the cypro tends to lower both, which I don't want.
Someone with high free plasma serotonin ( asthmatic, people with IBD ect....) often has very low platelet serotonin and taking the cypro, at the recommended dosage (4mg) and in the long run, could, I think, make the situation worse.In this scenario (high f5ht / low p5ht ratio), tianeptine (along with good amount of sugared /creamy/milky coffee, if well tolerated) would be the drug of choice.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9807972
 

kiran

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That's interesting. I do have occasional asthma and some IBS. I used to get groggy from cypro in the beginning, but not anymore. I have been using for a while.

I think I will stop the cypro for a while and start on the tianeptine again.
 

Wilfrid

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I put the link to the whole study I quoted above:

http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10 ... %2990156-4

If you have occasional asthma as well as some IBS, I strongly recommend you to read this study.
A very small dose of tianeptine ( like 2~4 mg // 2mg is more than enough for me) taken regulary before going to bed, could make a huge improvement regarding your occasional asthma.
I found that making a two days break (per week) is very important as to avoid any dose-dependent effect when taking it for a long time.
 

charlie

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Wilfrid thank you for bringing that up regarding the asthma and cyproheptadine. Some things to ponder for me now. :hattip
 
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I thought cyproheptadine only blocked the "receptor"? I think your body would simply adapt to using less serotonin, like with coffee.
 

SQu

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Groggy mornings. That's me. Cypro worked somewhat in the beginning, now it's like melatonin - knocks me out for a bit then wakeful from then on. Last 5 nights I've slept about as badly as usual but I've felt clear, awake, energetic in the morning. Must check for stress hormones(but think not ), other possibilities include lots more progesterone, more thyroid (and t4 at night, maybe?), and a bedtime niacinamide dose. Could tsh play a role?
 

DaveFoster

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Hi all,

I go to evening school and I have noticed a worsening of my morning grogginess (shivering, hard to move my limbs at all) which I have had since childhood. Sleeping ten or more hours and getting up after noon improves these symptoms greatly.

Anyway, I cannot put off my conclusions any longer, as I have registered over and over a temperature of 36,0 degrees Celsius OR LOWER during these events. It takes about two hours after breakfast (but it's hard to even screw the coffee machine tight enough) to feel better, when the temperature usually stabilizes at 36,7 degrees Celsius. I have hypothyroidism, not that any doctor would aknowledge this.

I now realize that T3 supplementation would have been a powerful tool if taken ONLY at these times as a sort of kickstart, and that going for complete hormonal replacement for moderate cases like mine leads to more coldness (rT3?) and eventually dropping the medication.

I hope this helps some people make their minds up and focus on the healing process.

Take care!

P.S. I'm about to sue the customs for delaying my vitamins now for over two months. Not cool guys. I have exams coming up. This is necessary nutrition for basic human life.
Such, I thought you were 80 years old. Are you still using T3 for those cold mornings?
 

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