For Those That Have Groggy Mornings

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Nov 26, 2013
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Hi all,

I go to evening school and I have noticed a worsening of my morning grogginess (shivering, hard to move my limbs at all) which I have had since childhood. Sleeping ten or more hours and getting up after noon improves these symptoms greatly.

Anyway, I cannot put off my conclusions any longer, as I have registered over and over a temperature of 36,0 degrees Celsius OR LOWER during these events. It takes about two hours after breakfast (but it's hard to even screw the coffee machine tight enough) to feel better, when the temperature usually stabilizes at 36,7 degrees Celsius. I have hypothyroidism, not that any doctor would aknowledge this.

I now realize that T3 supplementation would have been a powerful tool if taken ONLY at these times as a sort of kickstart, and that going for complete hormonal replacement for moderate cases like mine leads to more coldness (rT3?) and eventually dropping the medication.

I hope this helps some people make their minds up and focus on the healing process.

Take care!

P.S. I'm about to sue the customs for delaying my vitamins now for over two months. Not cool guys. I have exams coming up. This is necessary nutrition for basic human life.
 

mas

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Hi Such_Saturation,

Have you tracked your package? Have they given any reason for the delay- that is totally unacceptable!
 

jyb

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Such_Saturation, I can related to your symptoms with cyclical patterns. Late in the day things get better and borderline okay, the problem are the early temperatures and symptoms which are sign of hypothyroidism.

I wonder if its related to the serotonin/cortisol cycles, for some reason the body has the habit of overproducing it at some times of the day. I'll try some anti-serotonin drug taken in the morning instead of at night see if it makes a difference. And T3 morning only too.
 
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Interesting... How much thyroid were you taking and of what kind when you noticed a lowered metabolism?

I just started thyroid supplementation 3 days ago (1/4 tablet cynoplus daily) and my basal body temperature has been going down every morning from 97.2, 97.0, to 96.9 (this morning). I feel really fatigued and can barely do my school work.

I hope customs comes through soon! Maybe you should place an additional order and just consider it lost?
 

juanitacarlos

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I think sometimes when you take thyroid medication when you are in a stressed state, it can actually make you drowsy by reducing the stress hormones. That is what happens with me. I think Peat said somewhere that when your thyroid is healing, you often need to nap during the day. So maybe the thyroid is revealing your base metabolism, which isn't great?
 

Such_Saturation

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Somehow customs think the B3 is a drug, so they want me to declare it as such and say it's no more than two months' dose. But it's a half pound of it. So I told them it's cosmetic precursor so the deal just goes on and on and on and on.

I think the T3 very much does reveal your basal metabolism, but this in turn might cause your body to think it shouldn't use that T3 (there was a look at this hypothesis in a thread). T3 can be inactivated just like T4, it turns out.

I think circadian rythm has lots to do with the messed up temperatures (alarm during deep sleep = freezing) but I will not believe "delayed sleep disorder" to be a real thing unless they show me a mutation and the hormonal mechanism it affects.

Thanks for your answers!
 

juanitacarlos

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Such_Saturation said:
T3 can be inactivated just like T4, it turns out.

Was this discussed on the forum? I've never heard of this - can you post a link to more info?

Thanks mate.
 

Such_Saturation

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Iodothyronine deiodinase

 

Hammond

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Interesting.
I was taking a dessicated thyroid supplement for a winter boost (northern Europe in winter can be like living in Mordor in the off-season), but consistently running into issues. Things start great, pulse and temps increasing, stress hormones lowering, then things level off and the supplement appears to have no effect, then they go backwards pulse and temps lowering, stress hormones coming up. Try to keep calories/nutrients up to no avail; it's like i hit a wall with supplementing the dessicated and then things go backwards, no matter how small i dose, my body seems to start rejecting it.
So...
bought cynomel due to being t3 only and thinking possible t4 conversion issue or similar.
Again, was great at first even having just come off dessicated, but then levels off, then backwards same as dessicated. (coming off seems to help, as if metabolism still gets a kickstart from the t3 overall and stress lowers once cynomel is removed.)
Been wondering about it since, and then saw this thread mentioning t3 deactivation.

Saw issues with the deiondinase system and t3>t2 deactivation mentioned in another thread viewtopic.php?f=10&t=922&p=7892&hilit=inactive+t2#p7892 but the exact causes are inconclusive. (not sure what ray thinks on this one)

also seen some possibilities around the forum, eg vitamin B1 deficiency from thyroid supp use. would need to experiment with this.

Have also been into rT3 yahoo group but they seem all about increasing T3 dosage to clear T4.

So trying to bring it together to see if i can figure this one out.

Any idea as to what can actually cause t3 deactivation, practically speaking/why i would have this issue with t3 only/what to do?
 

jyb

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Hammond said:
Have also been into rT3 yahoo group but they seem all about increasing T3 dosage to clear T4.

So trying to bring it together to see if i can figure this one out.

Any idea as to what can actually cause t3 deactivation, practically speaking/why i would have this issue with t3 only/what to do?

I've tried the "T3 only to clear T4" protocol in the past but no success, but my symptoms are slightly different (trouble detecting *any* response whatsoever to thyroid supplementation).

My understanding so far is that systematic T3 deactivation could be due to either chronic deficiency of one of the minerals, or chronic level of some stress hormone. If its due to chronic estrogen, it'd make sense to get some progesterone before thyroid, if its due to serotonin, then an anti-serotonin drug, etc.
 

Hammond

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Tried progesterone and cyproheptadine. Both helped overall but still seemed to hit the T3 wall.
Could try these in a more concerted fashion, for longer/larger dose etc. if it could make the difference with breaking a cycle.
 

Such_Saturation

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It certainly is a protective mechanism as well, but the "diametrically opposite" enzyme in that graph can be preferred by the liver in stress. Also some other carrier globulin was mentioned in the other thread as a limiting factor.
 

Hammond

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Good observations. Specific missing mineral is worth further investigation. Is there anything beef liver lacks besides sheer macro-nutrients in this regard? It is my go-to for missing nutrients.

This table also seems to give a useful snapshot re deiondinases and related hormones http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=a1h3sl&s=6#.U0-43oXIO1s

In simple terms, what i particularly dont get in the context of these pathways, is how peatian advice like "stress of any sort, eg cold/dark, increases your need for thyroid, so increase your supplementation" co-exists with
"stress of any sort will inhibit conversion of inactive to active forms and even deactivate the active forms of thyroid hormone meaning you may run into problems with supplementation"

Trying to clarify this one.
 

jyb

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Such_Saturation said:
I think circadian rythm has lots to do with the messed up temperatures (alarm during deep sleep = freezing) but I will not believe "delayed sleep disorder" to be a real thing unless they show me a mutation and the hormonal mechanism it affects.

I'm a bit puzzled as to how to break this rhythm. When I read RP, I think:

nutrients + healthy liver + T3 + sunlight + ... -----> heat production and metabolism.

But instead, it seems like something is inhibiting all that, despite the supply of energy. Body seems programmed to release cortisol, serotonin or some other stress hormone in cycle as if there was no energy supplied.
 

Such_Saturation

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These are matters that Ray Peat would just say "give it time" to, but I think we must resolve them. Some of the more crafty guys on the forum know how to tweak the body to carry more thyroid, of course there are risks with that. The real trick is lowering basal stress sensitivity and freeing up your genes with demethylators. Early life conditions pretty much can trick your brain in thinking it's more stressed than it should. Perhaps a brief stress at night is necessary for people like us to be warmer in the day?

Also, what if the body wanted more tsh to counter the stress? By lowering it with Cynomel wemight be letting the estrogen and PUFA dominate us. We want to be healtier than we are allowed to at that moment. Perhaps tsh inhibits the "bad" deiodinases?
 

jyb

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Such_Saturation said:
The real trick is lowering basal stress sensitivity and freeing up your genes with demethylators. Early life conditions pretty much can trick your brain in thinking it's more stressed than it should.

Yes it's definitely from birth in my case. It's the "imprinting" RP talks about sometimes.

Such_Saturation said:
Also, what if the body wanted more tsh to counter the stress? By lowering it with Cynomel wemight be letting the estrogen and PUFA dominate us. We want to be healtier than we are allowed to at that moment. Perhaps tsh inhibits the "bad" deiodinases?

I personally don't think that's the case, last year I did cynomel and it had really killed TSH (according to one measurement, I don't do measurements often), yet I didn't feel any effect from thyroid supp. I think low TSH is still a worth while goal though, as on theory it's bad when its high. I do however see some benefits from diet, caffeine, anti-serotonin drugs,...
 

gretchen

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My mornings improved by getting up at the same time and opening curtains to get sun, taking thyroid and taking my homeopathic constitution type remedy. My energy is much improved.
 

Such_Saturation

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Oh yes, I also noticed light is important. If you have lights on up until the very minute you go to bed, you will have a hard time sleeping.

Ray Peat has mentioned the estrogen causing T4 to go the rT3 path, so maybe there's some kind of mechanism going on? It would be nice to track body temp versus warm\cold feeling in hands three times a day from the start of cynomel treatment to when "tolerance" develops. Who knows what, other than depressing TSH, the cynomel might be doing.

"Deiodination is controlled by numerous hormones and nerval signals including TSH, vasopressin and catecholamines." "Additional feedback loops are ultrashort feedback control of TSH secretion (Brokken-Wiersinga-Prummel loop) and linear feedback loops controlling plasma protein binding. Convergence of multiple afferent signals in the control of TSH release may be the reason for the observation that the relation between free T4 concentration and TSH levels deviates from a pure loglinear relation"

HPT axis

Look at the diagram, it's crazy!
 

Wilfrid

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jyb said:
Such_Saturation said:
I think circadian rythm has lots to do with the messed up temperatures (alarm during deep sleep = freezing) but I will not believe "delayed sleep disorder" to be a real thing unless they show me a mutation and the hormonal mechanism it affects.

I'm a bit puzzled as to how to break this rhythm. When I read RP, I think:

nutrients + healthy liver + T3 + sunlight + ... -----> heat production and metabolism.

But instead, it seems like something is inhibiting all that, despite the supply of energy. Body seems programmed to release cortisol, serotonin or some other stress hormone in cycle as if there was no energy supplied.

You are on to something on this.
If we look, for example, on prolactin production in animals , it seems that, no matter how many stressful situation or excess oestrogen are involved in its endogenous excess production, there is a photoperiodic regulation of prolactin secretion.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 459.x/full

From the link above:

«The physiological importance of the seasonal changes in prolactin varies in different species. In sheep, goats and Siberian hamsters, prolactin appears to be primarily concerned with the seasonal changes in coat condition ( 83[84]–85) but has little role in reproduction. In species such as the skunk and the mink, which employ a delayed implantation strategy, prolactin has a well-established luteotrophic function that is required for blastocyst implantion ( 86). In most species where the effect of photoperiod on prolactin secretion has been examined, short photoperiod causes a decline in prolactin secretion, whereas under long photoperiod prolactin levels rise. This occurs irrespective of whether animals are long or short day breeders, implying that a common mechanism is involved in the regulation of seasonal plasma prolactin levels. Thus it seems reasonable to suggest that the pars tuberalis and its secretory product tuberalin may contribute to the seasonal regulation of prolactin secretion by the pituitary in all photoperiodically-sensitive mammalian species. Laboratory rats express melatonin receptors in the pars tuberalis, yet prolactin secretion does not alter in rats in response to altered photoperiod ( 87). It will be interesting to identify whether this is due to a defect in the ability to synthesize or respond to tuberalin. In man, conversely the lack of seasonal changes in prolactin may reflect an absence of detectable melatonin receptors in the pars tuberalis ( 88). The role of the pars tuberalis in humans remains uncertain, but if the primary role of the pars tuberalis in mammals in general is to mediate the photoperiodic regulation of prolactin, the pars tuberalis may be vestigial in man. Support for such a view comes from a rare case report for a pituitary adenoma arising from the pars tuberalis of a 53-year-old woman, who had no major endocrine disturbances ( 89). Thus a major biological role of the pars tuberalis in mammals appears to be in the seasonal regulation of prolactin secretion. Whether the pars tuberalis subserves any other function remains to be investigated.»

The interesting thing is that for animals, short day (ie long melatonin profile) suppress prolactin production whereas long day ( short melatonin profile) cause high levels of prolactin secretion....the exact opposite for humans, as Ray explained how short day and darkness are powerful triggers of stress hormones in human.

Anyway the link above clearly proved that there is indeed an internal circadian rythm which plays a strong effect on hormonal secretion and homeostasis in animals and it sounds reasonable to think that similar mechanism is involved in humans too.
That is taking exogenous hormones, or any given drugs, at the wrong time of the day could pertube body's own regulating system...
The book «Rythms of life» give an interesting explanation about all those phenomena.
 
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