Foods for a 1,600 kcal goal?

Discussion in 'Macros & Micros' started by ghostofperdition, Jan 17, 2015.

  1. ghostofperdition

    ghostofperdition Member

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    I'm a seventeen-year-old girl, 180 lbs and 5'6". Overfat, need to lose weight. I currently follow a Peatish diet already, but I haven't really been keeping an eye on calories (not to mention the fact I also succumb to biscuits etc when I feel hungry/peckish)

    I feel like I need a change up in my meals, also: breakfast is eggs and OJ, or fruit/yoghurt and OJ; Lunch is cottege cheese and bananas, or gouda cheese + oat biscuits; dinner is usually meat and starch. I go to the gym 3-4x per week - usually eat more on gym days, my calories come from milk and chocolate on those days.

    Essentially I want to shed fat and build lean muscle, but i'm a bit lost on food. Maybe even my general intake, too, but 1600 is surely okay for fat loss.

    Thanks
     
  2. tara

    tara Member

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    :welcome ghostofperdition

    My understanding, from youreatopia, not from Peat, is that a growing young woman like you would need more like 3000 cals to be able to mature fully over the next few years and to maintain good energy levels. Restrictive dieting esp. at this age can negatively affect your health for a long time after. It can interfere with growth - you are supposed to get broader in the shoulders and hips etc during this time, it can suppress metabolism, and it can interfere with reproductive hormones (and it can make you miserable). Reading in other places suggests to me that restrictive dieting for weight loss more often than not results in fat gain in the medium and long term, because for most people it tends to suppress metabolism.

    Have you taken a look at the sticky topics at the top of the diet subforum for ideas?
    When you are peckish/hungry between meals, maybe trade out the biscuits for more OJ, milk, cheese.
    If you can add in the occasional meal of liver. it's great for several vitamins and minerals. Also occasional oysters if you can get them, or other shellish, and non-oily fish. If you can swap out some of the starch for sweet fruit, honey etc, that may help to give you more energy to burn now, with less put into increased fat storage.
    Peat would suggest not eating too much meat in the evening - it's better used during the day. If you can add some gelatine, either from powder or in yourown stock, that helps balance the proteins in meat.
    I guess you've picked that Peat and most of us here strongly recommend keeping intake of polyunsaturated fats as low as possible. I don't know exactly how much protein you personally need, but you could try for something in the range of 100g, and see if you feel better for more or less than that. At the very least, 80g - but most peole do better on more than that.

    By all means build yourself some muscle at the same time as you are growing the rest of yourself. Shorter periods of using muscles strongly may be more effective than long 'cardio' running etc. Muscles at rest tend to burn fat.

    Others here are likely to have other opinions.
    Take care.
     
  3. OP
    ghostofperdition

    ghostofperdition Member

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    Hi tara, thanks for the reply. I understand what you're saying about calories for a young woman etc, but I have a problem in that I've told my parents that I want to lose weight and restrict calories, and I doubt they'd be happy about a 3000kcal intake. The only way I could see a way around this is if I were to buy OJ/yogurt/milk from the store opposite the gym on my lifting days, and keep calories lower on other days.

    I will do, thanks. Is chocolate too high in fat for a reasonable snack?

    Thanks very much for your help. :)
     
  4. Velve921

    Velve921 Member

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    I feel like I need a change up in my meals, also: breakfast is eggs and OJ, or fruit/yoghurt and OJ; Lunch is cottege cheese and bananas, or gouda cheese + oat biscuits; dinner is usually meat and starch. I go to the gym 3-4x per week - usually eat more on gym days, my calories come from milk and chocolate on those days.


    Here is a sample routine that I believe can work for you:

    Breakfast: 3oz of meat + fruit or sweet potato. Cook in coconut oil. Meat in the evenings will elevate serotonin which causes disruption in sleep. Also add 1 cup of milk + 1 tbsp of gelatin.

    Lunch: Cottage cheese with fruit other than bananas...anything tropical that is not as starchy. Drink either coconut water or carbonated water with food.

    During + Post Workout Concoction - 1 cup of milk + 2 cups of OJ + 1 tbsp of gelatin + 1/2 tsp of salt

    Dinner: 2 Eggs and fruit cooked in coconut oil.

    Before Bed: 1 cup of grassfed milk (I use Kalona) mixed with 1 cup of OJ + 2 tbsp of gelatin + 1/4 tsp of salt

    2x a week do shellfish instead of meat. 3oz should do.

    1-2x a week do epsom salt baths before bed. Use 2-4lbs in warm water for 30 minutes. Sip the "Before Bed Concoction" while in the bath tub. THIS WILL DEFINITELY HELP WITH DECREASED STRESS AND FAT LOSS.

    You by no mean have to follow this but it may at least give you some new thoughts on how to plan days.
     
  5. OP
    ghostofperdition

    ghostofperdition Member

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    Thanks for the advice - I won't be able to follow it directly (for example, I can only get pasteurized homogenized milk) but I have a rough guideline now.
     
  6. tara

    tara Member

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    Hi ghost,

    Tricky if your parents control what you eat. Sorry about that.

    At 5'6 and 180 pounds you are in the so-called 'overweight' category, but the way these categories are presented and used is not based on sound science about good health; it has more to do with fashion and the weight-loss industries. There is some evidence that the lowest morbidity and mortality occur in the 'overweight' category, not in the 'ideal/normal' category (the bottom of the graph is around BMI 27, but pretty low from 20ish to 30ish). Some people are naturally healthy and thin in the 'normal' category; some in the 'overweight' category and some in the 'obese' category. Starving is generally harmful to health.

    I don't know your parents, or your relationship with them, but I wonder whether you could find one or two articles that they would be willing to read to help you persuade them to a more reasonable plan. Depending on why they are eager for you to lose fat, different approaches might be relevant. This could take a bit of time and effort for you to do some reading for yourself, and see think about what might speak to them.
    Is it more about 'looking good' or about health, for them?
    If they understood that your body needs sth like 3000 cals, and that there is harm caused by starvation, would they be willing to stop the pressure, or at least accept a smaller energy deficit - eg 2500 cals instead of a horrible 1600? I've found quite a bit of relevant evidence on youreatopia, but there are probably other sources too.
    Or maybe you can interest them in the evidence that restrictive dieting for weight loss usually results in weight gain (by reducing metabolism and muscle mass, etc). The Health at Every Size promoters have lots of relevant research, too.
    Would a plan that involves lots of fruit, milk, lean fish, shell fish, etc convince them you were serious about your health? Depending on their views, this might look like a step in the direction of health to them?

    It is possible, though not certain, that if you can improve your diet, and get suitable exercise, that your body will decide it is happier at a lower weight. Whether or not you lose fat, this is your probably your best bet for long good health, anyway. Probably it will be helpful to raise metabolism - that is, your body's ability to burn fuel to produce energy it can use. You can check this by monitoring body temperature and pulse.
    Some diet factors are likely to be relevant. PUFAs slow metabolism, so getting them out of your diet as much as you can is important for health, and if you are carrying excess fat (which we can't really know at this stage), it may eventually help you shed some of it. If you have a history of eating a lot of PUFAs (as I did) it can take a few years to remove much of the stored PUFA in your tissues, but I'm assuming it will be worth it. Trying to get rid of it too fast can cause a bunch of health problems as the PUFA is released into circulation. Getting rid of it slowly is safer.
    Some people find they maintain weight or lose fat more easily if they keep starch low, and eat most carbs in the form of sugar - eg fruit, milk, honey, maybe some sucrose, etc. If you haven't read Peat's articles on sugar, I'd recommend them. He roughly says sugar are easier for the body to use for fuel than than starches.
    He has also said large amounts of fat can contribute to unwanted fat gain. But some people here do fine with quite a bit. Getting more of your energy from sugars tends to help keep your metabolism higher than getting it from lots of fat. Making sure you get other needed nutrients is also important, and helps prevent other bottlenecks that could unnecessarily limit your body's energy production.

    Chocolate: Peat has expressed concern about soy products having unwanted estrogenic effects. It is a common ingredient in chocolate. Quite a few people here avoid chocolate that has soy lecithin, but search out other brands without it - there are threads with this info if you search. I eat a bit of chocolate, but I've been gaining weight, so I don't work weight-loss example. Whether it will serve your current path depends on whether you have particular intolerance to it, and how much you eat, and in relation to what else you are eating.

    Some people do fine with pasteurised homogenised milk.
     
  7. visionofstrength

    visionofstrength Member

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    Here you go, Opeth fan*. This will work like a miracle. The trick is to keep taking small sips all the time, and do not ever let yourself get to the point where you feel hungry. Please make sure you have everything on the list, even if you feel full! You can lose as much fat as you want, and quickly, but you must not starve yourself! Starving yourself even for an hour or two makes it much harder to meet your goals.

    Can you tape measure your neck, waist at its narrowest, and hips at their widest? The changes in these measurements will let you know if you are losing fat or not.

    Also, do not eat or drink anything that is not on this list!

    Click the Contact button on the left if you have questions.



    *Edited this to make the reference clearer.
     

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  8. Jennifer

    Jennifer Member

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    If you don't mind me asking, ghost, how long have you been working out for and could you give a little more background of your weight/health/diet history?

    For example, how was your weight/health growing up and did you ever diet/actively restrict calories in the past? Are you currently dealing with any major stress?
     
  9. tara

    tara Member

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    Hi ghost,
    Eating all the things on this list may well be a great idea. And limiting to this may be ok for a few days, but long term such a severe energy deficit seems to me to be likely harmful. I do not think it is responsible to promote such a very low calorie diet to a growing young woman, let alone as a 'miracle' ()and let alone with the condescending endearment).

    I think Jennifer's request for more history could well be interesting, if you want to.
    It could make a difference to what makes sense for you from now.
     
  10. visionofstrength

    visionofstrength Member

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    I just meant that if anyone wants to do a 1,600 calorie diet, then this is one way good way to do it.

    Peat has suggested that a diet like this, even for six months, may have health benefits. [See "In a 1938 experiment (Brown, et al.) that intended to show the essentiality of unsaturated fats, a man, William Brown, lived for six months on a 2500 calorie diet"]

    NB: I acknowledge that some here don't personally agree with that, but I'm just giving a perspective based solely on Peat's writings.
     
  11. tara

    tara Member

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    The study showed, and Peat discussed, the non-essentiality of unsaturated fats, not that a growing teenage woman should or could safely live on 1600 cals. There is a big difference between a fully grown man living on a 2500 calorie diet, and a growing teenager on a 1600 cal diet. As far as I know, and Peat does not comment on it in this context, they both may have similar needs. This seems to be another exaggerated misinterpretation attributed to Peat, and based on ignoring a significant component and significant context of what Peat wrote.
     
  12. visionofstrength

    visionofstrength Member

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    Well, I think Peat notes that William Brown was a large active man who lost a great deal of weight on the diet in six months, and cured his chronic headaches and generally improved his health.

    I mean, the question is about weight loss, and I'm answering the question, now with a citation to Peat's work. That's just being nice.
     
  13. tara

    tara Member

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    That William Brown lost a lot of weight demonstrates that he was running a significant energy deficit. I guess it makes sense that since he was doing a lot of physical work, his energy needs could well be higher.
    From my non-Peat reading, my understanding is that it is important not to run a large deficit during the late teens when we are still growing into structurally and functionally mature adult bodies.
    Saying 'you can lose as much weight as you want, and quickly', sounds to me a bit like the kind of encouragement Italy recently outlawed. They don't think that encouragement to starve is 'nice' either, even if someone asks for it.
    So from my PoV you have answered a question about how to do something that does not make sense to do, claimed that your proposed solution will work like a miracle, and provided a citation from Peat that in relevant respects does not support your proposal for the OP.
    Claiming it is a perspective based solely on Peat's writings gives the impression that your proposal is one that Peat would/has recommended for contexts like the OP's. I think this is misrepresenting Peat.

    All that said, I do think the foods you listed are very much in line with recommendations Peat has often made - there is a lot of good nutrition in milk, OJ, eggs, coconut oil, and coffee for people who tolerate it, and he has repeatedly recommended the raw carrot salad to help correct problematic hormone balance.
     
  14. Sea

    Sea Member

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    I think that you should stop all exercise if you are eating so few calories.

    You need to eat more calories than normal to sustain exercise without it becoming catabolic. The point of exercise is to build more muscle mass, not lose muscle mass by breaking it down and not eating adequate fuel to rebuild it.

    I think that you should double your caloric intake if you are trying to lose body fat%.

    You lose body fat by increasing your metabolism, not by malnutrition/starvation which has the opposite effect.

    With caloric restriction you will lose muscle mass and bone density, while not really lowering your actual body fat%.

    When any caloric restriction is ended you will have a slower metabolism than before and will quickly balloon up to a higher body fat% than you were previously. Caloric restriction is a poor plan for fat loss.
     
  15. barbwirehouse

    barbwirehouse Member

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    That looks like a very limited diet. :ugeek: No seafood, meat or vegetables apart from carrot at all?

    Isn't it missing out on important vitamins like vitamin k and minerals like zinc? :?
     
  16. visionofstrength

    visionofstrength Member

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    It very much depends on how you do the caloric restriction. If you can eat often enough even small quantities of food can reduce fatty acid oxidation, which is the real metabolic show stopper, and then caloric restriction should be fine.

    Also, eating the thermogenic/uncoupler foods listed here (orange juice, nonfat milk, coconut oil) and keeping your thyroid level up with caffeine, further avoids fatty acid oxidation.

    In other words, the effect of caloric restriction is not as obvious as some would have you believe. The key is to avoid fatty acid oxidation that can come from fasting for long periods, or (as you say) from exercising for too long so that you run out of sugar, and start oxidizing fatty acids.

    Doubling calories does not automatically equal double the metabolism, apart from thermogenic/uncoupler foods. You can see what happens here on the forum, when people eat without strict caloric restriction or monitoring and (they say) gain fat. They also report being hypothyroid, which indicates a lot of fatty acid oxidation and high, unused insulin (sometimes called insulin resistance), which in turn leads to fat storage.

    It's a separate question whether there's anything wrong with fat -- fat may well be a healthy, protective response. It's unfortunate that fat is often represented as unsightly, when it may be good. The key is, if you decide you want to lose fat, you can with safe caloric restriction. As Peat notes in the case of William Brown, not only did caloric restriction let him lose fat, he cured his chronic headaches and generally improved his health. But he only ate the thermogenic/uncoupler foods I've listed (perhaps substituting a little butter for coconut oil).
     
  17. visionofstrength

    visionofstrength Member

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    Yes, I hope the two eggs should be enough at least in the short term. Typically, when I talk about a diet I have a discussion about eating liver or oysters once a week, but then I hear, But I don't like liver or oysters!

    My view is that the barrier to adoption is not worth the risk that the person won't do the diet at all. The worst thing that can happen is she goes off to another forum or website, and finds a crazy diet that actually does harm her in many ways.
     
  18. pboy

    pboy Member

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    to be honest excersize is pretty much always a bad idea, in every way...when you really think about it. It serves no purpose, no tangible benefit to anybody, its all an ego driven thing that isn't based on reality, its like a gouge attempt. Light sport for fun with friends or family is good for bonding and good feelings, but weights and gym or running and all that is a waste. You will feel more athletic, energetic, strong, and energized by keeping a good diet, sleeping well, and NOT excersizing. Its burning valuable energy that someone had to work very hard to cultivate and get to your home into thin air with no gain at all other than a tired person who feels like ***t and gets sore. You will have an easier time, im sure as a girl this is really what the whole thing is about, being beautiful inside and out by not excersizing. The action you take in your day to day life is enough to use your limbs well and they'll tone appropriately. And being in a non stressed, happy loving...efficient, spending your time in a worthwhile way that elevates your soul, state will have you tone up and be more fit than gym style or waste of energy excersize will ever do...its not even in the same ballpark
     
  19. visionofstrength

    visionofstrength Member

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    We don't have any way of knowing what the deficit is. We certainly can't go by generalized estimates that teens have the same metabolism, especially when we know from Peat that they don't.

    If we tell a teen to eat 3,000 calories, but she metabolizes only 1,500 calories, then she may gain 15 pounds in a month, as we've seen members here report (assuming no uncoupler food and hypothyroidism). This only furthers the unfortunate body image issues we worry about.

    On the other hand, losing as much fat as you want to, with healthy caloric monitoring and an easy diet is a nice thing.
     
  20. visionofstrength

    visionofstrength Member

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    Yes, to the extent I am self-aware, my own perspective is based solely on the work of Ray Peat and related work he has cited. If it weren't for Peat I don't know where I'd be.

    And now, read my new sig below for the cool disclaimer! :D
     
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