Fixing Milk

[BigYellowLemon]

So I think milk is the perfect food, and skim milk is the perfect food for PUFA depletion - except for one thing. The protein.

Dairy protein seems to be uniquely allergenic for a lot of people here, myself included. Otherwise it's an amazing, cheap food. Sadly, the whey and possibly casein seem to give me some problems. Never anything overt, my stomach never hurts from dairy, but it seems to cause things like low mood, or acne, or dandruff. These problems can be reduced by reducing dairy for me, but otherwise I have no idea what to eat, every other food is nutritionally incomplete, or expensive, besides starch. But I don't want a diet based on starch.

Not only is the dairy protein allergenic, but it's bioavailability is very low. According to this thread, only 30% is used as energy, the rest is burned off. However I've also read that the reason some proteins are low in bioavailability is because they are turned into glucose. Whatever.

I was thinking about using hydrolyzed whey/collagen, but they lack a lot of the nutrients dairy has to offer.

So, I was thinking, would adding proteolytic enzymes to dairy predigest the protein for us, and thus give a perfect food?

I was thinking of using rennet, but it would be kinda gross, and expensive, and a unethical.

Maybe bromelain or papaya enzymes? Or straight up pepsin and trypsin?

Temperature and acidity would have to be optimized as well, which wouldn't be that hard.

Would it even work?

The main worry I have besides it working is the effects proteolytic enzymes have on the body. I have read they are used as a supplement, apparently after being eaten they enter the blood and have a proteolytic effect within in the bodies tissues. I don't want this. I am perfectly content with the thickness/clotting of my blood, and would rather my tissues remain uneaten by some random **** enzyme.

I don't food alone is a cure all, but it makes a big difference, and my appetite is very low as is (I have a hard time eating nearly enough calories, my daily total calories is probably at 1000, no joke). Drinking milk as the bulk of my diet would be wonderful.

We will see, I will be ordering some enzymes soon. Hopefully it does.

 

[raypeatclips]

Have you tried different types of milk, or lactose free milk? Cheese? Adding things like rennet or enzymes to milk in order to make it work for you seems a bit extreme.

 

[BigYellowLemon]

Cheese isn't good for me.

I have no problems with lactose as far as I can tell.

 

[High_Prob]

Have you tried 'a2 milk' (the brand)? That seems to be the only one that I do not react negatively to and I have tried many...

 

[cyclops]

and here I thought the protein in milk was supposed to be awesome.

 

[Lucenzo01]

Sugary yoghurt can be a great alternative to milk. Some people reduce their milk problems adding lysine to the milk. Maybe adding taurine and caffeine would improve it even more.

 

[theLaw]

Dairy protein seems to be uniquely allergenic for a lot of people here, myself included.

Not only is the dairy protein allergenic, but it's bioavailability is very low. According to this thread, only 30% is used as energy, the rest is burned off. However I've also read that the reason some proteins are low in bioavailability is because they are turned into glucose. Whatever.

1. Never seen any evidence that "a lot" of people here have a problem with milk protein, but some do have issues with being allergic to certain type of milk due to the cow's diets or processing

2. The thread you are referring to by Haidut starts with the following statement:

This topic has come up repeatedly and recently forum member gbolduev raises the issue again, and forum member jyb suggested I post about it. It seems that due to hypothyroidism and other conditions, many people on the forum have a functional protein deficiency due to poor ability to digest protein from food. Some cases can be helped by taking digestive enzymes but others need more drastic measures. There is a growing field of research on restoring protein metabolism in sick people by using direct supplementation with essential amino acids only. This approach achieved positive nitrogen balance with much lower protein intake and has the benefits of generating much less toxic byproducts while also having much higher utilization percentage. Studies often quote numbers on protein utilization and it seems that the highest utilization from food sources is for eggs (45%), followed by milk (30%), meat (25%) all the way down to plant protein (<15%). These numbers show why plant protein is in general not a good food for most people - i.e. you spend a lot of energy to digest and get very little benefit from it.

If only 30% protein from of milk is digestible, then why would Ray Peat suggest 80-100G while recommending 2L of Milk + 2L of OJ (nearly 80G of protein)?

It appears that you currently have digestive issues which is a symptom not the problem. Most people should be able to digest Organic Milk products without additives.

I would try adding BCAAs (or cooked potato juice) to improve digestion and lower serotonin.

From RP Email wiki:

The gut makes 95% of serotonin, which is the main promoter of stress hormones, inflammation, pain, and anxiety.

Then I would work toward improving your liver:

Caffeine Reverses Stress, Insulin Resistance, Hypertension

Cheers!

 

[Waynish]

I wonder if the root cause is milk. A lot of people have problems with gluten and milk - both have various unwanted immune effects. In lieu of the mainstream autoimmunity theories - I think TCM and peat paradigms both provide potential alternatives for fixing their digestion. In TCM, for milk issues, there is usually too much "dampness" already in the upper digestive tract - and the spleen and st

 

[BigYellowLemon]

@High_Prob I will look for a brand and see if it makes a difference. I'm not sure if it'd even be in the stores around here.

@cyclops The amino acids present in milk are good I think, but the protein may be allergenic.

@theLaw

A lot of people do have problems with milk, even if it isn't acute, as in, they'll get other symptoms from drinking it. I get no acute symptoms from milk in my stomach.

I don't know why Ray would suggest it, but from the study haidut linked, only 30% of milk protein was digested by the study participants, and they weren't hypothyroid. The protein was burnt off and nitrogen was then freed to make ammonia.

@Waynish

Interesting. If you know any more on the subject of TCM in relation to the current discussion, I am all ears.

-

Casein can open tight junctions, similar to gluten. This is actually how lactation works, the casein triggers the opening of tight junctions and thus the release of all of the components of milk (which then combine to create it).

With proteolysis working, casein's effect on tight junctions should be nullified, but sometimes proteolysis doesn't work, and processed milk might have altered proteins.

Credit to Hyperlipid.

Not only that, but casein peptides have some opioidergic activity. This is not good in mu (ha) opinion.

And whey. From my understanding, whey is itself made up of immunoreactive proteins, a large portion if it is actually immunoglobulins, antibodies. I would prefer amino acids and/or easily digested peptides, rather than compounds my stomach thinks are a message.

 

[theLaw]

@theLaw

A lot of people do have problems with milk, even if it isn't acute, as in, they'll get other symptoms from drinking it. I get no acute symptoms from milk in my stomach.

I don't know why Ray would suggest it, but from the study haidut linked, only 30% of milk protein was digested by the study participants, and they weren't hypothyroid. The protein was burnt off and nitrogen was then freed to make ammonia.

How do you know they weren't hypothyroid? Wonder how many of us here would be diagnosed as "hypothyroid" by the average physician. You do understand that undiagnosed hypothyroidism is why most people end up here.

So your logic is that hypothyroid people (the reason for Haidut's post) are getting even less than 30% from milk? How do most members here not have a major protein deficiency with a daily need of 80G+.

Also, that's a huge miss by Peat, which would basically mean that he has been giving incorrect advice regarding protein to people for years.

In another post Haidut suggests that taurine's ability to increase protein utilization was probably due to it's effect on liver health:

I think the increase of protein utilization is due to taurine's effects on liver health. Glycine has been shown to have similar effects on protein utilization and it also affects liver health beneficially. Protein utilization depends almost entirely on liver's ability to process protein and keep ammonia under control. Insulin plays a role as well but liver health is paramount. Caffeine, which is also very beneficial for liver, has been shown to improve anabolic response to protein and prevent muscle catabolism during exercise, and as far as I know it has no effect on insulin.

So by curing hypothyroidism we are all working toward a max 30% protein utilization from milk? That's 1.5 gallons of milk to get 65G of protein......................

 

[BigYellowLemon]

@theLaw

Yes, I understand many people are undiagnosed hypothyroids. The real number however is unknown and I won't trust any estimates without solid reasoning. And even if those in the study were hypothyroid, then it makes the results of the study even more relevant, because it means the results are applicable to those on this forum who are hypothyroid (which there is a lot of).

"So your logic is that hypothyroid people (the reason for Haidut's post) are getting even less than 30% from milk? How do most members here not have a major protein deficiency with a daily need of 80G+."

As haidut's post says, the daily requirements for protein could be met with 25g of pure free amino acids. With 25g of pure free amino acids, nitrogen balance was positive, indicating sufficient protein intake. According to haidut's paper, free amino acids have a bioavailability of 99%.

With a bioavailability of around 30% for milk, 80 grams of milk protein would give you about 24g of amino acids, the rest being oxidized by the mitochondria. Hahah I love how that math works out.

And, people on this forum will be eating a far higher amount of protein (often a gram per lb of body weight), and will be using a mix of meat and milk protein as their main source. Meat has a bioavailability of 25%, egg protein is 45%, but the amounts of egg protein consumed are often low.

So it is perfectly plausible. The only reason protein requirements are so high is because the actual use of total protein is low. The rest is used for ATP, and free nitrogen is released.

Peat's advice for protein is perfectly reasonable. Protein from sources like milk/meat/eggs must be high in, because bioavailability of amino acids is so low.

And the main reason I want to predigest milk with protease enzymes is because they may be allergenic. The high bioavailability is just a nice side bonus.

 

[theLaw]

@theLaw

"So your logic is that hypothyroid people (the reason for Haidut's post) are getting even less than 30% from milk? How do most members here not have a major protein deficiency with a daily need of 80G+."

As haidut's post says, the daily requirements for protein could be met with 25g of pure free amino acids. With 25g of pure free amino acids, nitrogen balance was positive, indicating sufficient protein intake. According to haidut's paper, free amino acids have a bioavailability of 99%.

With a bioavailability of around 30% for milk, 80 grams of milk protein would give you about 24g of amino acids, the rest being oxidized by the mitochondria. Hahah I love how that math works out.

Peat's advice for protein is perfectly reasonable. Protein from sources like milk/meat/eggs must be high in, because bioavailability of amino acids is so low.

And the main reason I want to predigest milk with protease enzymes is because they may be allergenic. The high bioavailability is just a nice side bonus.

Yes, I understand many people are undiagnosed hypothyroids. The real number however is unknown and I won't trust any estimates without solid reasoning. And even if those in the study were hypothyroid, then it makes the results of the study even more relevant, because it means the results are applicable to those on this forum who are hypothyroid (which there is a lot of).

So you want to have it both ways. Either they were hypo or not..............either way it works for you?........even though the results would be completely different. Doesn't exactly sound like "solid reasoning" (hint: why would Haidut open the thread by mentioning hypo individuals before posting the study?).

And, people on this forum will be eating a far higher amount of protein (often a gram per lb of body weight), and will be using a mix of meat and milk protein as their main source. Meat has a bioavailability of 25%, egg protein is 45%, but the amounts of egg protein consumed are often low.

Currently very few have posted using 1G/lb, so not sure where you saw that.

So it is perfectly plausible. The only reason protein requirements are so high is because the actual use of total protein is low. The rest is used for ATP, and free nitrogen is released.

Or lower utilization caused by compromised liver function, hence the reason why BCAAs work so effectively.

Cheers!

 

[BigYellowLemon]

@theLaw

"So you want to have it both ways. Either they were hypo or not..............either way it works for you?........even though the results would be completely different. Doesn't exactly sound like "solid reasoning" (hint: why would Haidut open the thread by mentioning hypo individuals before posting the study?)."

I am saying that even if they were hypothyroid, it wouldn't matter, because the results would still be applicable to those on this forum, because as you said, many on this forum are hypothyroid. As it stands, there is no evidence of the study participants being hypothyroid. And the numbers of study participants was high, 500 people in one study, though they were "overweight". Still, I think these results are still applicable to the people on this forum.

"Currently very few have posted using 1G/lb, so not sure where you saw that. "

Well, even if they were consuming 80g of animal protein, it would be a sufficient protein intake, based off the numbers mentioned previously. And I have read numerous times from many on this forum saying they consume 100+. It's one of the facets of the Ray Peat diet, high animal protein, be it milk, meat, or eggs.

"Or lower utilization caused by compromised liver function, hence the reason why BCAAs work so effectively."

Perhaps it's due to poor liver function. All the more reason to use free amino acids or protease enzymes to predigest protein, so as to reduce the stress on the liver.

Funnily enough, BCAA's are sold/used in their free form, similar to the free amino acids I spoke of previously. Must be why they are so effective haha.

 

[theLaw]

@theLaw

"So you want to have it both ways. Either they were hypo or not..............either way it works for you?........even though the results would be completely different. Doesn't exactly sound like "solid reasoning" (hint: why would Haidut open the thread by mentioning hypo individuals before posting the study?)."

I am saying that even if they were hypothyroid, it wouldn't matter, because the results would still be applicable to those on this forum, because as you said, many on this forum are hypothyroid. As it stands, there is no evidence of the study participants being hypothyroid. And the numbers of study participants was high, 500 people in one study, though they were "overweight". Still, I think these results are still applicable to the people on this forum.

So why would Haidut mention improving protein utilization for hypothyroid individuals if he didn't know if those studied were hypothyroid? (which was the whole reason for the thread) Unless the utilization never changes, which would make it strange to call out hypos in the opening paragraph. Haidut exact wording: "protein deficiency due to poor ability to digest protein from food."

"Currently very few have posted using 1G/lb, so not sure where you saw that. "
Well, even if they were consuming 80g of animal protein, it would be a sufficient protein intake, based off the numbers mentioned previously. And I have read numerous times from many on this forum saying they consume 100+. It's one of the facets of the Ray Peat diet, high animal protein, be it milk, meat, or eggs.

So you went from people consuming "often a gram per lb of body weight" to "numerous times from many on this forum saying they consume 100+". Strange to have a forum filled with people weighing 100lbs given the average human is around 137lbs.

"Or lower utilization caused by compromised liver function, hence the reason why BCAAs work so effectively."
Perhaps it's due to poor liver function. All the more reason to use free amino acids or protease enzymes to predigest protein, so as to reduce the stress on the liver.

Funnily enough, BCAA's are sold/used in their free form, similar to the free amino acids I spoke of previously. Must be why they are so effective haha.

So before it was the "only reason protein requirements are so high is because the actual use of total protein is low", and now it's "Perhaps it's due to poor liver function".

Not sure why you keep "adjusting" your argument, so I'll leave you to it. Cheers!

 

[BigYellowLemon]

"So why would Haidut mention improving protein utilization for hypothyroid individuals if he didn't know if those studied were hypothyroid? (which was the whole reason for the thread) Unless the utilization never changes, which would make it strange to call out hypos in the opening paragraph. Haidut exact wording: "protein deficiency due to poor ability to digest protein from food."

The reason haidut mentioned hypothyroid people is because he thinks they have poor protein utilization, and thus free amino acids would be a good supplement for them considering it's extremely high bioavailability (99%).

I never mentioned hypothyroid in this thread until it was brought up, because it's not relevant to this thread. I was only citing his thread for the ideas it contained about protein digestion/use in the body.

"So you went from people consuming "often a gram per lb of body weight" to "numerous times from many on this forum saying they consume 100+". Strange to have a forum filled with people weighing 100lbs given the average human is around 137lbs."

Notice I said 100g+. People can be 100lbs. Regardless, based on the study, even 80g of animal protein should cover most peoples needs especially considering the studies were done on overweight people.

"So before it was the "only reason protein requirements are so high is because the actual use of total protein is low", and now it's "Perhaps it's due to poor liver function".

Seems like you're arguing with yourself, so I'll leave you to it. Cheers!"

Hahaha what are you talking about? You're the one who mentioned liver health hahah.

And BTW, what I said isn't logically exclusive: actual protein use could be low because people's livers are unhealthy.

 

[sunflower1]

I have the same issue Big Yellow Lemon .. I get an itchy nose almost instantly and feel nauseous from milk, So I've been eating mainly seafood and beef as protein sources. Even eggs give me an itchy nose. I am interested in using BCAA but then if I sub one meal with BCAA where I would normally do a meat type protein my calories will drop .. I need 2000 a day or I feel horrible .. I currently take a little HCL with lunch and dinner .. subbing meat with BCAA will literally give me 150 + less calories.. I'm trying to keep macros to 50/25/25 as that seems to help keep blood sugar stable which is also an issue for me ..

 

[BigYellowLemon]

@sunfllower1

Yes exactly! The itchy nose. Well for me, the itchyness is focused on the cheeck directly adjacent to the nose, and is very annoying. It's accompanied by redness and flakiness. And my hair gets thin and flaky. This doesn't happen if I cut out dairy.

Eggs are a hit or miss in terms of a reaction. The yolk is waaay better then the whites, the whites just sit in my gut like a rock. Though I have absolutely no problem with digestion. Egg yolk omelettes are amazing btw, way better than using both portions of the egg.

I have found an interesting paper on milk processing: Milk processing as a tool to reduce cow’s milk allergenicity: a mini-review

This paper bases the effectiveness of processing off of the level of antigenicity the protein exhibits, or whether the protein presents allergenic epitopes, basically the part of the protein/peptide supposedly responsible for the allergenicity. For milk proteins, especially whey portions, antigenicity seems to be the real problem. From what I understand, it seems that the proteins are telling the immune system to freak out.

This paper however ignores other mechanical effects the proteins might have, like caseins effect on tight junctions, or casein peptides endorphin like effect. That would be very difficult to measure though.

For me the goal is to reduce antigenicity primarily. The real goal is to completely hydrolyze the proteins into small peptides or amino acids, but based on this paper it seems that would be conventionally/realistically impossible. Lowering antigenicity seems possible though.

The main methods that are realistic and effective are:

1. Heating
2. Proteolytic enzymes - might not be possible
3. Fermentation

They all work, and all seem to have synergy between them. Though with heating, sometimes the heat can make the allergenicity worse.

The study I linked is just a meta-analysis (I think that's the right term), it is just a compilation of other studies. I will have to comb through each study and see what's up. When they use the word "significant", it's not as significant as we think it means, a "significant" result for them could mean nothing for us. And sadly in a lot of these studies there seems to be no hard numbers.

Honestly I probably won't be combing through any of the studies because this topic has already lost my interest haha. I'm just gonna experiment with yogurt/kefir and anti-histamines and call it a day. But man, dairy with hydrolyzed amino acids would be the dream haha.

@sunflower1

Normal milk seems like a no go though.

Fermentation seems to be the best route.

And I think increasing HCL is wise for increasing proteolysis.

I also feel very bad when not enough is eaten.

 

[sunflower1]

I know for me that Fermentation seems to increase lactic acid which is a no go.I already have high lactic acid numbers..
I believe possibly increasing good liver function will help but it appears it's a double edged sword once you get yourself into a chronic hypothyroid state , Being able to tolerate supplements is an issue for me also although HCL seems to go down well .. I'm low in many of my B vits and vit C although I'm not really in a place whereby I can take them ..
It gets so tedious after a while .. Have you tried adding vinegar to milk like Nathan Hatch suggests ? It's meant to help stop the upper gut eating up all that lactose and converting it to lactic acid . I might try that out in the next few days but for right now I'm going to take a couple days break so I stop picking my nose .. I have wondered if the vinegar might help me .. so far nothing else has worked ..

 

[Lukas]

Have you tried milk from animals other than cows?

 

[BigYellowLemon]

@sunflower1

What are you eating most days?

I think lactate is pretty benign.

I use vinegar pretty frequently, for a while I used it daily but haven't in a few days.

Seems to help digestion, and the acetic acid itself might be useful as an energy source or useful as it can be used as a structural component of the body. It's turned into acetyl-CoA IIRC. Might turn into ketones.

Vinegar is a great way to kill of gut bacteria as well.

I am very sorry to hear. What exactly happens when you use supplements? Why can't you tolerate them?

Why do you think you have lots of lactate?

@Lukas

I have not tried goat milk. I have tried goat cheese.

I have no idea if I'd get the same reaction from goat milk. I will test it out.

As far as I know, it is expensive, and I don't know where I'd buy it from.

If I tolerated it though, I would make it a staple. Maybe goat milk could be bought in bulk online or something.

Do you have any experience with it?