Fixing a leaky gut/bacterial overgrowth, anything to speed up gut repair?

[Lampshard]

Why is gelatin better than collagen, especially if it's hydrolyzed?

Gelatin, stress, longevity

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

 

[PeskyPeater]

Uridine monophosphate has gut repairing ability, but cannot be taken too long as it can cause insulin resistance, and should not take a low dose as it can be pro-oxidant to the liver while a big dose is anti-oxidant and protects against ROS. According to SWIM, taking about one gram for 10 days could be oke .

Uridine monophosphate (UMP) is a major nucleotide analogue in mammalian milk and uridine (UR) is its gastro-intestinal metabolite in vivo. This study aims to investigate the functional effects of UMP and UR on the gut in vitro and in vivo. Twenty-one piglets were randomly allotted into three groups, the control group, UMP group and UR group, and orally administered UMP or UR for 10 days. Results showed that UMP and UR supplements improved the ADG of piglets, and decreased the diarrhea rate. UR increased the jejunum villus length/crypt depth ratio, Claudin-3 and E-cadherin expression, and the pyrimidine nucleotide metabolic enzymes including CMPK1, RRM2, UPRT, CTPS1 and CTPS2 in the duodenal mucosa. Both the UMP and UR decreased the expression of CAD and RRM2 at the jejunal mucosa. Moreover, UMP and UR increased the apoptosis ratio of intestinal epithelial cells in in vivo and in vitro experiments. Taken together, oral administration of UR and UMP could improve the small intestinal morphology, promote epithelial cell apoptosis and renewal of intestinal villus tips, and benefit intestinal development and health thus improving the growth performance and reducing the risk of diarrhea in early-weaned piglets. -source

 

[PeskyPeater]

So since being hypo all my life, and clearly having leaky gut since a child, I am now getting better with Peaty diet + iodine, garlic as anti-microbials. But is there anything that would speed up the repair of the gut lining? And since iodine kills most of everything in the gut, what foods would give some "good" bacteria to replace the old bad ones? Sauerkraut, kefir?

I already am grain free, low starch, very low pufa, high fruit, milk, collagen, seafood, etc.

That is counter productive!
Taking garlic is going to irritate the gut and increases release of seratonin which is interfering with making new gut cells.

• A recent study suggests that increased seratonin levels may prevent the gut from cleaning out damaged or dying cells, a process called autophagy.

- source

 

[PeskyPeater]

I think Dr P said to increase transit time and reduce SCFA...
And look at what prunes can do:

Background & aim​

Prunes (dried plums) are perceived to maintain healthy bowel function, however their effects on gastrointestinal (GI) function are poorly researched and potential mechanisms of action are not clear. We aimed to investigate the effect of prunes on stool output, whole gut transit time (WGTT), gut microbiota and short-chain fatty acids (SCFA) in healthy adults

Results​

There were significantly greater increases in stool weight in both the 80 g/d ... prune groups compared with control . Stool frequency was significantly greater following 80 g/d ... prune consumption compared with control ..., but WGTT was unchanged. The incidence of flatulence was significantly higher after prune consumption. There were no significant differences in any of the bacteria measured, except for a greater increase in Bifidobacteria across the groups ... Prunes had no effect on SCFA or stool pH. -source

 

[Dean]

Gelatin, stress, longevity

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Thanks for the link. I read this article years ago when I first found Peat. That was also before collagen peptides were a thing or I knew they were a thing or at least certainly they weren't the thing they are now.

In (admittedly) skimming the article again, I don't see where he addresses the difference between gelatin and collagen other than that gelatin is the cooked form of collagen. The amino acid profile is the same (no tryptophan, cysteine), so I don't necessarily see what the problem is with collagen peptides. I find it dissolves much better than even the hydrolyzed gelatin I tried back then (Great Lakes), and it agrees with me better in terms of histamine response (though that could be related to the beef kidney supplement I take now but was not taking then).

I'll reread the article again later to make sure I didn't miss it. Maybe though Peat has had something to say since then in an interview perhaps about the difference and advantage of gelatin or problem with collagen?

You definitely can't make marshmallows out of the peptides though that's for sure, and back in the day I shoveled homemade peeps down my gullet like every day was Easter. So there is that.

 

[Birdie]

I would be very careful with the Iodine or outright stop it, Peat has mentioned before that overdosing iodine can be insanely dangerous for the thyroid and pretty much screw it up for a long period of time. Fresh kefir is ok, Sauerkraut a bit too lactic acid heavy if you're not already in good health. I think Peat has mentioned Subtilis and Licheniformis being ok, which are contained in some Phage Technology GI Life Extension products he has mentioned, if you want any "probiotics". I would also replace collagen with gelatine, Great Lakes best if you are able to afford it. Hope you are having a coconut oil carrot salad daily. Guy above mentions a good list of foods that you should try to completely avoid to reduce endotoxin and bacterial overgrowth. Cheers.

I agree..

On the carrot salad, I was using the CO for a while and thinking it was good. Then, heard that Ray said the olive oil is better than CO for the salad. I forget why. Also salt in the salad is important. Now, I just eat a carrot with a pinch of salt myself. But, starting out, I followed Peat's recipe with shredded carrot, olive oil and salt. I also added a little lemon juice or vinegar. (I think that was part of the recipe too.)

also - I forgot to say that Ray advised rinsing the shredded carrot to reduce carotenes.

 

[Zsazsa]

Thanks for the link. I read this article years ago when I first found Peat. That was also before collagen peptides were a thing or I knew they were a thing or at least certainly they weren't the thing they are now.

In (admittedly) skimming the article again, I don't see where he addresses the difference between gelatin and collagen other than that gelatin is the cooked form of collagen. The amino acid profile is the same (no tryptophan, cysteine), so I don't necessarily see what the problem is with collagen peptides. I find it dissolves much better than even the hydrolyzed gelatin I tried back then (Great Lakes), and it agrees with me better in terms of histamine response (though that could be related to the beef kidney supplement I take now but was not taking then).

I'll reread the article again later to make sure I didn't miss it. Maybe though Peat has had something to say since then in an interview perhaps about the difference and advantage of gelatin or problem with collagen?

You definitely can't make marshmallows out of the peptides though that's for sure, and back in the day I shoveled homemade peeps down my gullet like every day was Easter. So there is that.

I suggest you to try both and observe the difference in your own body. When I take collagen peptides, type II collagen or Verisol I do not see the benefits I see when I take gelatin such as improved fingernail quality and enhanced skin hydration (less face wrinkles). My husband OTOH will get splitting toenails from gelatin (I suppose from increased histamine).

ETA - the best intervention for my gut health was ginger.

 

[Dean]

I suggest you to try both and observe the difference in your own body. When I take collagen peptides, type II collagen or Verisol I do not see the benefits I see when I take gelatin such as improved fingernail quality and enhanced skin hydration (less face wrinkles). My husband OTOH will get splitting toenails from gelatin (I suppose from increased histamine).

ETA - the best intervention for my gut health was ginger.

FWIW, in the few months I've used the collagen peptides, I can see the results in my skin, hair and nails. I wish it was doing more for my joints but as the article states that part of it is more of a long haul- even with gelatin. I've started taking type 2 collagen supplements to try and help with that part of it.

I'm still curious if Peat has specifically commented on collagen peptides as to whether they are detrimental or not as good as gelatin. I'll have to dig around and see.

Perhaps I'll give the gelatin another go experimentally to see if I still get the negative histamine response I did previously. As I mentioned though, I really like the collagen peptides for the way it easily dissolves in room temp or even cold liquids which makes it more likely that I'll use it more frequently.

Ginger is definitely great for short term, immediate intervention/relief on gut symptoms (nausea) and have used it for years for motion sickness. I haven't really seen anything on it or felt it's done much personally to heal the gut though in the long term.

 

[Zsazsa]

FWIW, in the few months I've used the collagen peptides, I can see the results in my skin, hair and nails. I wish it was doing more for my joints but as the article states that part of it is more of a long haul- even with gelatin. I've started taking type 2 collagen supplements to try and help with that part of it.

I'm still curious if Peat has specifically commented on collagen peptides as to whether they are detrimental or not as good as gelatin. I'll have to dig around and see.

Perhaps I'll give the gelatin another go experimentally to see if I still get the negative histamine response I did previously. As I mentioned though, I really like the collagen peptides for the way it easily dissolves in room temp or even cold liquids which makes it more likely that I'll use it more frequently.

Ginger is definitely great for short term, immediate intervention/relief on gut symptoms (nausea) and have used it for years for motion sickness. I haven't really seen anything on it or felt it's done much personally to heal the gut though in the long term.

The next best gut intervention for me was long term glutamine, but unlike standard recommendations of several grams a day, I could only tolerate 250mg. It worked nonetheless. Most of the time I paired it with collagen peptides and NAC (both of them in low doses).

 

[Dean]

Well, to answer my own question. I did see that someone asked Peat and he said either (gelatin or hydrolyzed collagen) was fine.

Also, to clear up my own confusion, it looks like the other Great Lakes can (other than gelatin) I tried back yrs ago was hydrolyzed collagen which is the same thing that is marketed now as collagen peptides. It didn't dissolve well at all back then in even hot liquids but am assuming the technology has improved and if I bought the Great Lakes hydrolyzed product now it would probably work just as well the Vital Proteins and Walmart generic peptides I've been using recently.

I see that Great Lakes has a lot more than two cans to choose from these days.

 

[AlphaD]

I find it to be super interesting. The microbiome that is.

My mom had for years acid reflux and issues with bloating/farting no matter what she ate. I gave her a probiotic supplement that didn'T work for me at all and after finishing it she never had any of the symptoms again.

I notice antimicrobials and emptying bowels to relief, even if just temporary, many symptoms and ailments i have in almost a instant. Healing and finding equilibrium longterm is so difficult tho, mostly because noone knows what exactly is needed in a individual. I have the feeling antibiotics caused many of my current issues.


Please be very careful when doing a probiotic enema, i believe they can be insanely dangerous. If you go for it, make sure to have activated charcoal and epsom salts ready on hand.

Maybe @AlphaD can chime in?
His thread was very impressive and i feel like it works around the same issue somehow somewhere but he does not recommend probiotic enemas due to bad experience with it i believe.

7 day water fast + Rectal Ozone + RO water enemas = ended a 7 year journey of hell!

Just went through hell and back. Been struggling with insomnia and gut issues for the longest time. Came across RP and got a little careless with antibiotics which ended up giving me SIBO (I suspect). Took over a year to get rid of it but developed histamine issues. Tried everything under...

raypeatforum.com

Yes! DO NOT DO PROBIOTIC ENEMAS! I believe the sugars from the cocktail may have been the root cause, it feeds both good and bad in the large intestine. I could have ended up at the hospital if I didn't have the ozone machine (I was pooping yellow mucous for 2 days).

Here is what I would do if I had to do it all over again:
1. Start off by cleaning up your diet (I bought a Ninja blender and starting drinking smoothies with coconut milk instead of dairy for a few days)
2. A few days later, start ozonated water enemas but start off first with warm water enemas. The way I do it is I first start with regular RO water (warm) and clear out all the residue (some of the stuff takes days to clear out, it's as if it's caked in there). I do about 3 rounds (fill, poop, fill, poop, fill poop).
3. While I'm doing the 3 rounds, I have room temperature water ozonating (the colder it is the more difficult it is to keep inside, however warm water can't hold ozone, so room temp is most ideal).
4. At this point, repeat the process but with the ozonated water. You'll notice whatever else left in there starts coming out (pay attention to the slime, it's usually towards the end).
5. The slime stopped after about 4 days of enemas for me, and that's when I really started feeling a huge difference.
6. Once you're sure your gut is clear, you can also just do the gas, but I think ozonated water first is a must to scrub out the plaque (or whatever it is).

Skip the probiotics all together and see how it goes with just the enemas first.

If the above doesn't help, then water fasting should seal the deal (imho).

Good luck!

 

[Hans]

So since being hypo all my life, and clearly having leaky gut since a child, I am now getting better with Peaty diet + iodine, garlic as anti-microbials. But is there anything that would speed up the repair of the gut lining? And since iodine kills most of everything in the gut, what foods would give some "good" bacteria to replace the old bad ones? Sauerkraut, kefir?

I already am grain free, low starch, very low pufa, high fruit, milk, collagen, seafood, etc.

Thyroid, niacinamide (500mg-1g dose daily), inosine (4-6g daily), vitamin D, calcium, magnesium, copper and zinc are very helpful in restoring gut function. Having good transit time, proper digestion and high vitamin D should sort out the balance of your bacteria.
The substances I mentioned above also modulate the microbiome positively.

 

[PeskyPeater]

Drinking milk and eating cheese helps protect the gut. Losartan is good also and treats IBS.

 

[PeskyPeater]

Thanks for the link. I read this article years ago when I first found Peat. That was also before collagen peptides were a thing or I knew they were a thing or at least certainly they weren't the thing they are now.

In (admittedly) skimming the article again, I don't see where he addresses the difference between gelatin and collagen other than that gelatin is the cooked form of collagen. The amino acid profile is the same (no tryptophan, cysteine), so I don't necessarily see what the problem is with collagen peptides. I find it dissolves much better than even the hydrolyzed gelatin I tried back then (Great Lakes), and it agrees with me better in terms of histamine response (though that could be related to the beef kidney supplement I take now but was not taking then).

I'll reread the article again later to make sure I didn't miss it. Maybe though Peat has had something to say since then in an interview perhaps about the difference and advantage of gelatin or problem with collagen?

You definitely can't make marshmallows out of the peptides though that's for sure, and back in the day I shoveled homemade peeps down my gullet like every day was Easter. So there is that.

there is no problem with collagen peptide. It's just that the pure form of gelatin is hydrolyzed after ingestion by your gut and in doing so make relevant functional peptide that are anti inflammatory and some other goodness. Taking the already hydrolyzed collagen cannot have these same effects in the gut.

 

[Zsazsa]

There are lots of insights in this paper to follow according to tolerance

Effects of dietary components on intestinal permeability in health and disease​

https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajpgi.00245.2020

 

[Dean]

there is no problem with collagen peptide. It's just that the pure form of gelatin is hydrolyzed after ingestion by your gut and in doing so make relevant functional peptide that are anti inflammatory and some other goodness. Taking the already hydrolyzed collagen cannot have these same effects in the gut.

Thanks for the explanation. Guess it would be worthwhile to give gelatin another go. Wonder though if that hydrolyzing work in a compromised gut might be the reason behind getting more of a histamine reaction.

 

[PeskyPeater]

Thanks for the explanation. Guess it would be worthwhile to give gelatin another go. Wonder though if that hydrolyzing work in a compromised gut might be the reason behind getting more of a histamine reaction.

Hydrolysis is done by the gut microbes. Histamine is a question of enzymes, which can be lowered by low thyroid function which causes leaky gut and could let through histamines but also endotoxin.

 

[PeskyPeater]

By not eating fermentable fibers. Insoluble fiber will be partially fermented and together with a mild antibiotic ( a lá carrot salad) will restore the balance towards having a multiple different kinds of microbes and not having over dominantly few strains. Adding certain probiotics with antibiotic effects is possible. Danny Roddy has made some notes on good ones.

 

[DonLore]

Thyroid, niacinamide (500mg-1g dose daily), inosine (4-6g daily), vitamin D, calcium, magnesium, copper and zinc are very helpful in restoring gut function. Having good transit time, proper digestion and high vitamin D should sort out the balance of your bacteria.
The substances I mentioned above also modulate the microbiome positively.

Sunlight, cheese (calcium, A and K vits) and magnesium indeed work very well for digestion. High metabolism is a must for the gut to work, thankfully I am getting metabolism up even without thyroid hormones (iodine has been a HUGE gamechanger)

 

[member 14952]

I also highly recommend collagen, gelatine or a glycine supplement. Maybe with sweet and not sour oranges.