Fish Oil Supplements Improve Testicular Health: Study Of 1,679 Healthy Young Men

[Lokzo]

@Lokzo will you experiment with Fish Oil?

I used to take it all the time when I was younger, and felt like it gave me the worst brain fog lol

 

[ursidae]

Omega 3 doesn’t give me brain fog. Then again I don’t take fish oil I just eat fish. If anything it’s too stimulating, like something zapped my brain. The effect is so quick too, faster than it should be taking my body to digest it

 

[Waynish]

Your thread reminded me to post mine:
In The USSR, If You Wanted Dessert, Then You Took Fish Oil!

 

[mostlylurking]

Fish oil is toxic. It. Is. Toxic.
Tried it myself before finding Ray Peat. It gave me the follow items: lipofuscin on my face and cataracts (within 12 months). My eye doctor was so pleased! She endorses the consumption of fish oil - "it won't hurt you". She assured me that I would soon be begging for that cataract surgery.

I found Ray Peat. I stopped taking the fish oil and avoided all sources of PUFA. I don't have cataracts anymore; my eyes have improved a great deal. I don't need that cataract surgery after all.

If you want to take fish oil, go for it. If you wonder if you should take it, just read Ray Peat's article here: The Great Fish Oil Experiment

 

[mostlylurking]

That’s not an explanation. Give me the mechanism of action.

I'll try to make it simple. Fish oil is highly unsaturated. That means it is unstable on the molecular level because it doesn't have enough carbon atoms to fill all the spaces so it attracts free radicals to fill the empty spaces. Look at a molecular diagram of a saturated fat versus an unsaturated fat. Saturated fat = stable; unsaturated fat = unstable. In other words, because fish oil is unsaturated, it goes rancid real fast, when it is warm and exposed to oxygen, like when it is inside you. This means it smells nasty and is poisonous when it's inside you.

 

[YourUniverse]

Fish oil is a tricky one because it does feel so good to take. I think it takes the place of gelatin/glycine in the diet, at least short term. Glycine+aspirin I think is a much safer longer-term solution for fish oil

 

[mrchibbs]

Fish oil is a tricky one because it does feel so good to take. I think it takes the place of gelatin/glycine in the diet, at least short term. Glycine+aspirin I think is a much safer longer-term solution for fish oil

No question fish oil helps to resolve inflammation in the moment, but I think the long term effects are soooooo sinister.

I personally took 10+ capsules of fish oil daily in my late teens for various reasons even though my health was spectacular. As soon as I turned 20 I crashed spectacularly in every regards. I’m fairly certain the large amounts of PUFAs acted like oil on a fire. If you’re experiencing any stress, they just make it a 100x worse.

 

[YourUniverse]

I personally took 10+ capsules of fish oil daily in my late teens for various reasons even though my health was spectacular

I did as well

 

[Fidelio]

I'll try to make it simple. Fish oil is highly unsaturated. That means it is unstable on the molecular level because it doesn't have enough carbon atoms to fill all the spaces so it attracts free radicals to fill the empty spaces. Look at a molecular diagram of a saturated fat versus an unsaturated fat. Saturated fat = stable; unsaturated fat = unstable. In other words, because fish oil is unsaturated, it goes rancid real fast, when it is warm and exposed to oxygen, like when it is inside you. This means it smells nasty and is poisonous when it's inside you.

I’m well aware that unsaturated fatty acids have double carbon bonds that makes them less stable. However I’m suggesting you can avoid that by not eating in a caloric surplus. If you don’t store any unsaturated fats they won’t get a chance to cause damage. But you still retain the anti-inflammatory effects.

 

[bk_]

Did the study account for the fat soluble vitamins present in fish oils? These a well known to improve testosterone levels and testicular health.

 

[mostlylurking]

I’m well aware that unsaturated fatty acids have double carbon bonds that makes them less stable. However I’m suggesting you can avoid that by not eating in a caloric surplus. If you don’t store any unsaturated fats they won’t get a chance to cause damage. But you still retain the anti-inflammatory effects.

Assuming you won't store the toxic highly unsaturated fat because you're watching your calories is optimistic magical thinking. Maybe if you are seven years old with optimal thyroid function, maybe then you could get away with it for a little while. But then the unsaturated fats will catch up with you and suppress your thyroid function and then all bets are off.

Have you considered the Precautionary Principle?

Here's a quote from Ray Peat:
"In experiments that last just a few weeks or months, there may not be time for cancers to develop, and on that time scale, the immunosuppressive and antiinflammatory effects of oxidized fish oil might seem beneficial. For a few decades, x-ray treatments were used to relieve inflammatory conditions, and most of the doctors who promoted the treatment were able to retire before their patients began suffering the fatal effects of atrophy, fibrosis, and cancer. (But a few people are still advocating x-ray therapy for inflammatory diseases, e.g., Hildebrandt, et al., 2003.) The fish oil fad is now just as old as the x-ray fad was at its peak of popularity, and if its antiinflammatory actions involve the same mechanisms as the antiinflammatory immunosuppressive x-ray treatments, then we can expect to see another epidemic of fibrotic conditions and cancer in about 15 to 20 years." link: The Great Fish Oil Experiment

I'm going to stick with aspirin, thiamine, and niacinamide. I do not believe that the risk related to fish oil, including oily fish like wild salmon, is worth the possible future side effects.

 

[Dr. B]

Meh, they control for a few things (perceived fitness level, abstinence etc.) but not enough to say they've isolated the impacts of the the fish oil. The men taking fish oil typically have a very different mindset than people who don't.

Moreover, fish oil and its omega will have an anti-inflammatory effect in the short term, Ray talks about this all the time, long term (6+months), as the fatty acids populate the tissues, I suspect those benefits would be completely undone within a year of continued supplementation.

Nothing much to get excited about either way.

dont most people using fish oil supplements just take a gram a day? arent PUFA preferentially excreted compared to other fats? so wouldnt the fatty acids not populate the tissues? some of the fish oil users I knew would actually use fish oil and eat fish and would skip fish oil supps when they ate fish.

anyway the fish oil supps are probably the least of the problem, assuming the users are just using a gram a day. the soybean oils, and just general high amounts of vegetable oils/pufa are the more common ongoing issue. also just a few milligrams of dhea/pregnenolone have more significant effects than grams of fish or pufa oil. it doesnt make sense how most people can eat 10 grams, 20 grams or more of omega 3/omega 6 and not notice anything, but just 10 milligrams of dhea or 50mg+ pregnenolone can cause severe estrogenic response, hair shedding and more.

 

[Dr. B]

I'll try to make it simple. Fish oil is highly unsaturated. That means it is unstable on the molecular level because it doesn't have enough carbon atoms to fill all the spaces so it attracts free radicals to fill the empty spaces. Look at a molecular diagram of a saturated fat versus an unsaturated fat. Saturated fat = stable; unsaturated fat = unstable. In other words, because fish oil is unsaturated, it goes rancid real fast, when it is warm and exposed to oxygen, like when it is inside you. This means it smells nasty and is poisonous when it's inside you.

how much were you taking? also isnt that comparing two different things? any product can go rancid even saturated fats, beef, etc. if you leave beef or chicken out it will go bad. wouldnt you need to compare cooked fish to cooked ground beef or something?

 

[mrchibbs]

dont most people using fish oil supplements just take a gram a day? arent PUFA preferentially excreted compared to other fats? so wouldnt the fatty acids not populate the tissues? some of the fish oil users I knew would actually use fish oil and eat fish and would skip fish oil supps when they ate fish.

anyway the fish oil supps are probably the least of the problem, assuming the users are just using a gram a day. the soybean oils, and just general high amounts of vegetable oils/pufa are the more common ongoing issue. also just a few milligrams of dhea/pregnenolone have more significant effects than grams of fish or pufa oil. it doesnt make sense how most people can eat 10 grams, 20 grams or more of omega 3/omega 6 and not notice anything, but just 10 milligrams of dhea or 50mg+ pregnenolone can cause severe estrogenic response, hair shedding and more.

I can only speak for myself, but maybe a decade ago during the big days of the fish oil craze, I used to take 10+ capsules daily and several people recommended that amount. I think some naturally occuring o-3, o-6 fatty acids (in fresh foods) can indeed get quickly used up but I don't think that applies to fish oil capsules.

 

[mostlylurking]

how much were you taking? also isnt that comparing two different things? any product can go rancid even saturated fats, beef, etc. if you leave beef or chicken out it will go bad. wouldnt you need to compare cooked fish to cooked ground beef or something?

Hydrogenated coconut oil doesn't go rancid because it doesn't have any unsaturated fat in it. Chicken fat is unsaturated because the chickens eat grains and do not have a rumen. Beef fat is much more saturated so the fat doesn't go rancid. This does not mean that the beef won't grow bacteria and smell to high heaven though. Fish oil is highly unsaturated so goes rancid very fast. Rancid and rotten are two different things.

I was taking the popularly recommended daily amount for a supplement, whatever that was. This was 7 years ago.

 

[Dr. B]

Hydrogenated coconut oil doesn't go rancid because it doesn't have any unsaturated fat in it. Chicken fat is unsaturated because the chickens eat grains and do not have a rumen. Beef fat is much more saturated so the fat doesn't go rancid. This does not mean that the beef won't grow bacteria and smell to high heaven though. Fish oil is highly unsaturated so goes rancid very fast. Rancid and rotten are two different things.

I was taking the popularly recommended daily amount for a supplement, whatever that was. This was 7 years ago.

are there any beef or dairy fats which actually have the PUFA/MUFA removed? actually even the 100% grass fed beef fat, or milkfat, still only ends up as around 50% saturated fat, maybe 45% MUFA and 3-5% PUFA.
although, its odd that beef and milk fat seem to go bad and need refrigeration whereas olive oil, being mostly MUFA with a small amount of sfa/pufa, can just be stored in a cabinet? maybe its the antioxidants in it that preserve it?
what were your experiences using it, did you notice side effects soon after using or was it with long term usage? if you have a high SFA/MUFA diet does it make a noticeable difference having something like a gram of fish oil or black seed oil? some say black seed oil is special due to quinones in it? thymoquinone and maybe more

 

[mostlylurking]

are there any beef or dairy fats which actually have the PUFA/MUFA removed? actually even the 100% grass fed beef fat, or milkfat, still only ends up as around 50% saturated fat, maybe 45% MUFA and 3-5% PUFA.
although, its odd that beef and milk fat seem to go bad and need refrigeration whereas olive oil, being mostly MUFA with a small amount of sfa/pufa, can just be stored in a cabinet? maybe its the antioxidants in it that preserve it?
what were your experiences using it, did you notice side effects soon after using or was it with long term usage? if you have a high SFA/MUFA diet does it make a noticeable difference having something like a gram of fish oil or black seed oil? some say black seed oil is special due to quinones in it? thymoquinone and maybe more

Is that beef fat and milk fat surrounded by meat and milk that bacteria love to eat? You are confusing stinky strains of bacteria that will give you food poisoning with the rancidity issue.

here's a quote from some random internet site: "The total fat content of (4 Oz Serving) 90% Lean Ground Beef is 11.3 g. Within the fat content, a 90% Lean Ground Beef contains 4.59 g of saturated fat, 0.72 g of trans fat, 0.39 g of polyunsaturated fat and 4.92 g of monounsaturated fat." link: Saturated Fat in 90% Lean Ground Beef - Nutrition Facts for 90% Lean Ground Beef A little math yields the results that the saturated fat in beef is 90.178%, not 50%. This site did not specify grass fed and finished beef; not being finished in a feed lot would result in a lower level of unsaturated fat in the tissues.

Fish oil is toxic because it is extremely unsaturated and therefore unstable.