Fish Feel Pain Just Like Other Animals And Humans

haidut

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Yet another piece of evidence that there is no such thing as a "lower animal" and pretty much anything with consciousness experiences pain much the same way we do. Yet despite these advances in our understanding of how similar we are to any other living creature, we still have surgeons performing surgery on babies without anesthesia, as well as vivisection studies done on live animals such as frogs and fish with the excuse that they do not feel pain the way we do because they are not "developed enough". As if feeling pain required some measure of intelligence. If so, then considering the low intelligence of many doctors making such claims maybe then would agree to undergo surgery without anesthesia and have their screams brushed aside as "simple reflex to noxious stimuli", which is the explanation given in regards to babies, frogs, fish, etc writhing in pain when subjected to this barbaric treatment.

Fish do feel pain in 'strikingly similar way to humans' and even hyperventilate when hurt, study reveals

"...The existence of pain in mammals is a long-known fact, and helped give rise to veganism and vegetarianism. But many diets exclude meat but include fish, often due to a lack of evidence over whether fish feel pain. Now a study claims that fish do feel pain in similar ways to mammals – including humans. Fish given an electric shock in one part of the tank stopped feeding there, researchers from the University of Liverpool reported in the Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B journal. The fish would refuse to feed for three days, effectively starving themselves. Another type of fish called a perch would not feed as frequently after its mouth had been damaged by a fishing hook. This indicates that the fish had been hurt by the injury. Other fish were documented hyperventilating, waving their injury tails and rubbing parts of their body after an injury. Now experts say fish should be treated more humanely. This includes using less damaging hooks to catch fish, and killing fish more quickly after being caught, researchers say. "When subject to a potentially painful event, fishes show adverse changes in behaviour such as suspension of feeding and reduced activity, which are prevented when a pain-relieving drug is provided," said Dr Lynne Sneddon, of the University of Liverpool. "When the fish's lips are given a painful stimulus, they rub the mouth against the side of the tank – much like we rub our toe when we stub it."
 

Regina

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Yet another piece of evidence that there is no such thing as a "lower animal" and pretty much anything with consciousness experiences pain much the same way we do. Yet despite these advances in our understanding of how similar we are to any other living creature, we still have surgeons performing surgery on babies without anesthesia, as well as vivisection studies done on live animals such as frogs and fish with the excuse that they do not feel pain the way we do because they are not "developed enough". As if feeling pain required some measure of intelligence. If so, then considering the low intelligence of many doctors making such claims maybe then would agree to undergo surgery without anesthesia and have their screams brushed aside as "simple reflex to noxious stimuli", which is the explanation given in regards to babies, frogs, fish, etc writhing in pain when subjected to this barbaric treatment.

Fish do feel pain in 'strikingly similar way to humans' and even hyperventilate when hurt, study reveals

"...The existence of pain in mammals is a long-known fact, and helped give rise to veganism and vegetarianism. But many diets exclude meat but include fish, often due to a lack of evidence over whether fish feel pain. Now a study claims that fish do feel pain in similar ways to mammals – including humans. Fish given an electric shock in one part of the tank stopped feeding there, researchers from the University of Liverpool reported in the Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B journal. The fish would refuse to feed for three days, effectively starving themselves. Another type of fish called a perch would not feed as frequently after its mouth had been damaged by a fishing hook. This indicates that the fish had been hurt by the injury. Other fish were documented hyperventilating, waving their injury tails and rubbing parts of their body after an injury. Now experts say fish should be treated more humanely. This includes using less damaging hooks to catch fish, and killing fish more quickly after being caught, researchers say. "When subject to a potentially painful event, fishes show adverse changes in behaviour such as suspension of feeding and reduced activity, which are prevented when a pain-relieving drug is provided," said Dr Lynne Sneddon, of the University of Liverpool. "When the fish's lips are given a painful stimulus, they rub the mouth against the side of the tank – much like we rub our toe when we stub it."
It's getting harder to reconcile eating animals.
When I am gardening in Florida, I will notice a black racer snake within around 6 ft of me just watching me. I look up and notice it and it looks up at me too. But it's like, "did something happen?" When I go back to doing what I was doing, it stays and just watches what I'm doing, and just slithers away when it gets bored. So far it is either birds, feral cats, snakes and turtles that like to hang out and be there within a closer distance than I can remember. Then when I go for a walk to the fishing pier, it is so cringey to watch the fisherman shove a hook into the back of a live fish.
 

tallglass13

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Milk , eggs and cheese should be enough. If the milk and cheese are raw and from grass fed, and in loving environments, I think that should be called vegan. Ray peat talks a lot about the negative stress that muscle meats have. so meat, is really ANti Peat food. I have been focusing a lot on milk, and am seeing very good results with energy and mood.
 

dfspcc20

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Milk , eggs and cheese should be enough. If the milk and cheese are raw and from grass fed, and in loving environments, I think that should be called vegan. Ray peat talks a lot about the negative stress that muscle meats have. so meat, is really ANti Peat food. I have been focusing a lot on milk, and am seeing very good results with energy and mood.

With dairy, though, the conundrum that arises is: what to do with all the male calves? Raising them uses resources, and farmers can't really justify keeping that many around. So they get turned to meat sooner or later. I'm definitely pro-dairy, but always get troubled by this aspect.
 

tallglass13

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yes of course. The Raw dairy I get from Claravale Farms and Orgainic Pastures ensured me about their polices and how they treat the animals. As long as a person doesn't actually eat the meat, they should feel as though they are not contributing or have the pain and suffering in their body. But if I owned cattle, I would only be sharing their milk and cheese and butter. I would leave them to enjoy their lives on my farm. We can only do so much, ya know.
Vegans get bad health from focusing on leaving animals alone entirely. The bible says we should look after them, and to guide them. Not ignore them completely. Vegans focus on toxic vegetables and soy, when could easily incorporate grass fed dairy and eggs, while the animal still gets to live.
 

Regina

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Milk , eggs and cheese should be enough. If the milk and cheese are raw and from grass fed, and in loving environments, I think that should be called vegan. Ray peat talks a lot about the negative stress that muscle meats have. so meat, is really ANti Peat food. I have been focusing a lot on milk, and am seeing very good results with energy and mood.
Yeah, this is certainly humane and more doable.
I think I remember maybe Paul Jaminet or Denise Minger saying Bivalves have no central nervous system and therefore do not experience pain. It's probably untrue, I now suppose.
 

lampofred

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Even plants feel pain. Fruits and milk/cheese are really the only foods that don't cause pain to other creatures.
 

LucyL

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When I consider predatory feeding amongst animals, it really seems like the inevitable adrenaline rush and surge of stress hormones the prey feels from the time it first leaps in the sense of danger to the time it is gutted or suffocated alive must give some benefit to the predator that consumes it. I see very little in nature that would in any way ameliorate that eventuality.

And I wonder what health benefits we miss out on when we very humanely lure a cow up a ramp to contentedly munch on a little grain and suddenly go dark.
 

sunraiser

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It's getting harder to reconcile eating animals.
When I am gardening in Florida, I will notice a black racer snake within around 6 ft of me just watching me. I look up and notice it and it looks up at me too. But it's like, "did something happen?" When I go back to doing what I was doing, it stays and just watches what I'm doing, and just slithers away when it gets bored. So far it is either birds, feral cats, snakes and turtles that like to hang out and be there within a closer distance than I can remember. Then when I go for a walk to the fishing pier, it is so cringey to watch the fisherman shove a hook into the back of a live fish.

I feel the same way in my heart but I feel the need to continue eating meat, for now.

I also love the curiosity you can notice from animals. A few times I've been walking on farm trails and a little robin has hopped along the fence next to me for a while. That connectedness and solidarity with nature is sorely lacking in modern society. We are all of this planet and have the exact same right to freedom from distress and mutual coexistence, no matter how we perceive our respective consciousness and intelligence.
 

Regina

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I feel the same way in my heart but I feel the need to continue eating meat, for now.

I also love the curiosity you can notice from animals. A few times I've been walking on farm trails and a little robin has hopped along the fence next to me for a while. That connectedness and solidarity with nature is sorely lacking in modern society. We are all of this planet and have the exact same right to freedom from distress and mutual coexistence, no matter how we perceive our respective consciousness and intelligence.
:thumbsup:
 

Pufa

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Milk , eggs and cheese should be enough. If the milk and cheese are raw and from grass fed, and in loving environments, I think that should be called vegan. Ray peat talks a lot about the negative stress that muscle meats have. so meat, is really ANti Peat food. I have been focusing a lot on milk, and am seeing very good results with energy and mood.

What about gelatin?
 

Zach Luken

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So how do we reconcile this - from a standpoint that: animal pain = bad, we should most definitely keep cows and other domesticated animals on pasture since they get food, water, shelter (especially in the winter), security & defense, etc. taken care of for the most part where as an animal in the wild doesn't have any of those things nearly as available as humans provide them - fun fact: most large wild animals if they don't get lucky and get killed quickly by a predator die by getting sick and collapsing to then be eaten alive by bugs, starve, dehydrate etc.. A painless bolt to the head at the end of your life doesn't seem that "inhumane" now.

Who defines what is "inhumane" anyway? At least in an atheistic worldview there is nothing wrong with killing and even torturing animals. From an evolutionary standpoint - anything that keep your own species alive would presumably be considered right or successful.

Lastly - If you believe or "know" through science you have the same value as a monkey or a fish because they all feel pain - remember self awareness, consciousness, compassion and the countless other seemingly supernatural and unexplained-by-science capabilities we possess as humans.

Hopefully this doesn't seem too biased. I tried to make a case objectively by am a very passionate Christian.
 

Pufa

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In a recent ORN interview Peat talked about the possibilty to find a combination of fruit that provides a complete amino acid profile.

Interesting. I only know about oranges and mangoes to be peat recommended. I heard keto acid being mentioned before but not sure how that works
 
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yes of course. The Raw dairy I get from Claravale Farms and Orgainic Pastures ensured me about their polices and how they treat the animals. As long as a person doesn't actually eat the meat, they should feel as though they are not contributing or have the pain and suffering in their body. But if I owned cattle, I would only be sharing their milk and cheese and butter. I would leave them to enjoy their lives on my farm. We can only do so much, ya know.
Vegans get bad health from focusing on leaving animals alone entirely. The bible says we should look after them, and to guide them. Not ignore them completely. Vegans focus on toxic vegetables and soy, when could easily incorporate grass fed dairy and eggs, while the animal still gets to live.
A diet with lots of high- quality eggs and dairy is surely much, much better than a vegan diet based around vegetables, beans and grains, but a meatless diet, vegan or otherwise, would still lack creatine. Taurine is also present in high amounts in meat, but in much lower amounts in milk, especially cow's milk. Also, liver is something that Ray emphasizes a lot, due to the sheer amount of nutrients present in it.

Also, the animal would suffer much less when being killed by a human than it would if lion, or a tiger or hyenas were killing them.
 
D

danishispsychic

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I spent my summers in Fiji bc my father lived there and when he would bring up these amazing big fish on his murder boat ---- I had to stop going on those gross fishing trips. He is not a nice man. They suffered.
 

Peater

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It says a lot that this even needed to be studied. Conscious beings feel pain? Who could have guessed...

However I did not get to choose the design of my body so will not be stopping eating meat.
 

seely

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This is why I hate that we’ve gotten away from processing our own animals.

Animals feel pain. So when we slaughter them, we see it. And we become more compassionate, more loving, more beautiful beings when we go out of our way to quickly kill an animal (when the barbarians would let them suffer). And make sure that they’ve lived the best life possible.

Everything I need to know about a persons character is displayed by how they treat animals.
 

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