First time I've slept more than 7 hours straight. But why?

[firebreather]

post 116557

post 116520 I've been thinking trying it at night for a little while but a little afraid to lol.

Lol, yeah, experimenting with new practices does entail some risk - no guarantees how it will work out.
Sometimes it's hard to find a good time to try things.

BTW, your better night's sleep ddn't happen to coincide with you having slightly longer away from work? Or more time enjoying loved ones?

I was away from work for a little while but I wouldn't call it "more time enjoying loved ones".

If anything the loved ones weren't being enjoyed so much

The day before in the car was quite stressful with my kids and wife.

The days prior with my wife's family were also stressful somewhat. And even though I was away from work my sleep was nearly as bad as at work.

Also I think the caffeine at night is blowing up in my face at the moment since I'm up at 3am writing this

 

[Orion]

Sounds like time to back off the caffeine.

Caffeine seems to be two sided, can help lean out liver, but you need to have good thyroid support.

But when you don't have good thyroid, caffeine uses up glycogen stores, helps liberate FFA's and causing a stress response. low liver glycogen, means waking up at night.

Somehow have to balance NDT/t3/t4, caffeine, aspirin, theanine, taurine, cypro, thiamine... etc I dropped everything back to zero and will start with very small amounts.

My goal is to one day, not have to take anything, and just enjoy a nice cup of coffee.

 

[firebreather]

post 116586 Sounds like time to back off the caffeine.

Caffeine seems to be two sided, can help lean out liver, but you need to have good thyroid support.

But when you don't have good thyroid, caffeine uses up glycogen stores, helps liberate FFA's and causing a stress response. low liver glycogen, means waking up at night.

Somehow have to balance NDT/t3/t4, caffeine, aspirin, theanine, taurine, cypro, thiamine... etc I dropped everything back to zero and will start with very small amounts.

My goal is to one day, not have to take anything, and just enjoy a nice cup of coffee.

Yea I think you're right.

According to my June bloodwork I've got the NDT worked out for T4 as it's where RP says it should be but looks like I need a lot more T3 and I'm not sure where to get that right now.

Do we know of other things that help the liver in besides caffeine?

 

[Orion]

post 116593

post 116586 Sounds like time to back off the caffeine.

Caffeine seems to be two sided, can help lean out liver, but you need to have good thyroid support.

But when you don't have good thyroid, caffeine uses up glycogen stores, helps liberate FFA's and causing a stress response. low liver glycogen, means waking up at night.

Somehow have to balance NDT/t3/t4, caffeine, aspirin, theanine, taurine, cypro, thiamine... etc I dropped everything back to zero and will start with very small amounts.

My goal is to one day, not have to take anything, and just enjoy a nice cup of coffee.

Yea I think you're right.

According to my June bloodwork I've got the NDT worked out for T4 as it's where RP says it should be but looks like I need a lot more T3 and I'm not sure where to get that right now.

Do we know of other things that help the liver in besides caffeine?

I asked in another thread, response is to search on haidut's posts/replies. I have read pretty much all of them, and listened to all the podcasts. I think caffeine, K2 and aspirin are the big guns. Also low fat would be useful I think.

There are alot of catch22's, needing caffeine to lean out liver, but it can cause stress response and release ffa's, aspirin will inhibit ffa, but drive a bigger stress response since glycogen is used up. Adrenaline goes up, so you use B6 to mitigate, so adrenaline is blocked, sugar is used up, what does the body do, and so on?

I believe RP is all about experimentation, but would be really helpful to have a primer/protocol, a reference list how to approach healing/leaning the liver.

 

[firebreather]

post 116602

post 116593

post 116586 Sounds like time to back off the caffeine.

Caffeine seems to be two sided, can help lean out liver, but you need to have good thyroid support.

But when you don't have good thyroid, caffeine uses up glycogen stores, helps liberate FFA's and causing a stress response. low liver glycogen, means waking up at night.

Somehow have to balance NDT/t3/t4, caffeine, aspirin, theanine, taurine, cypro, thiamine... etc I dropped everything back to zero and will start with very small amounts.

My goal is to one day, not have to take anything, and just enjoy a nice cup of coffee.

Yea I think you're right.

According to my June bloodwork I've got the NDT worked out for T4 as it's where RP says it should be but looks like I need a lot more T3 and I'm not sure where to get that right now.

Do we know of other things that help the liver in besides caffeine?

I asked in another thread, response is to search on haidut's posts/replies. I have read pretty much all of them, and listened to all the podcasts. I think caffeine, K2 and aspirin are the big guns. Also low fat would be useful I think.

There are alot of catch22's, needing caffeine to lean out liver, but it can cause stress response and release ffa's, aspirin will inhibit ffa, but drive a bigger stress response since glycogen is used up. Adrenaline goes up, so you use B6 to mitigate, so adrenaline is blocked, sugar is used up, what does the body do, and so on?

I believe RP is all about experimentation, but would be really helpful to have a primer/protocol, a reference list how to approach healing/leaning the liver.

I see what you mean by the catch 22s.

How long have you been going at this?

Do you have a paleo/low carb past?

 

[Orion]

post 116606 I see what you mean by the catch 22s.

How long have you been going at this?

Do you have a paleo/low carb past?

Got fed up with acne after 20yrs, after trying all the creams, antibiotics, accutane, mega B5... everything under the sun.

Started low carb in 2008, when googled searches said in was the cure to everything, with about 9 months of zero carb. Damage was done, hair loss, sleep issues, and acne unchanged. I was in classic denial, these are just detox symptoms, i was high on stress hormones!

2009 found Matt Stone, got back on the starch, and some NDT, got temp and pulse up, no help to acne or hair loss and now sleeping was really bad. Found Danny Roddy when he realized Matt was on to something (July 2010), been following Danny since then, but never jumped on the sugar path.

http://www.dannyroddy.com/2010/7/14/i-u ... wrong.html

I finally jumped to RP, in the last couple months, after reading Haidut and hearing his podcasts with Danny. Displaced all starch with sucrose. I have seen the most improvement in the last 2 months with sucrose, caffeine and I think pregnenolone. But being impatient I have pushed some supplements to hard, mainly caffeine, and it sends me backwards.

I have a good grasp of all the RP content, its putting it to good practice and experimentation. One step forward, two back it seems now.

How did you get here?

 

[tara]

post 116572 Also I think the caffeine at night is blowing up in my face at the moment since I'm up at 3am writing this

Bad luck.
Can't remember if you've always been a coffee drinker, or if you had the same problems without coffee too? If you haven't tried reducing it, that's another possible avenue to try, though withdrawal can be rough if you're relying on it.

 

[ecstatichamster]

post 116593

post 116586 Sounds like time to back off the caffeine.

Caffeine seems to be two sided, can help lean out liver, but you need to have good thyroid support.

But when you don't have good thyroid, caffeine uses up glycogen stores, helps liberate FFA's and causing a stress response. low liver glycogen, means waking up at night.

Somehow have to balance NDT/t3/t4, caffeine, aspirin, theanine, taurine, cypro, thiamine... etc I dropped everything back to zero and will start with very small amounts.

My goal is to one day, not have to take anything, and just enjoy a nice cup of coffee.

Yea I think you're right.

According to my June bloodwork I've got the NDT worked out for T4 as it's where RP says it should be but looks like I need a lot more T3 and I'm not sure where to get that right now.

Do we know of other things that help the liver in besides caffeine?

Vitamin K2.

 

[sweetpeat]

Do we know of other things that help the liver in besides caffeine?

Haidut's definitive list of liver helpers:

The most helpful would be the following, ranked in order of importance:
Caffeine, K2, Aspirin, glycine, MB, Taurine, Vitamin E, Theanine, Thiamine, BCAA, Pyridoxine, and
Biotin

Obviously, these can be used in tandem. Vitamin B1 is probably a good adjunct to caffeine as it helps control the lactate response some people get from it.

Forum link to original discussion here

Also, I have a post on how I reduced my liver enzymes (not sure if that's exactly the same as fatty liver). I didn't really use that much caffeine. Discussion here if interested.

 

[tara]

Hi Fire,
I just had another tangential thought, not from Peat but as far as I know compatible - not sure if I've mentioned any of them before.
If you think you are meeting nutritional needs and getting light etc, I wonder what you have tried by way of relaxation techniques?

I think you've tried bag breathing or other reduced breathing exercises to get CO2 levels up? Have you tried reduced breathign exercises in bed to help get to sleep? Or a sheet partially over your head?

Have you ever tried yoga? The classes I've been to alwys provide a valuable workout that helps align the body and ends with a few minutes of deep relaxation.

Some people find TRE valuable for releasing stresses and traumas held in the body. It involves some exercises that can be learned to trigger trembling, which seems to release some kinds of physical tension arising from past trauma. I imagine that your job may have helped set up some of that.

If you have emotional stress going on, then finding ways to address and release that can be helpful for relaxation and rest.

 

[firebreather]

post 116608

post 116606 I see what you mean by the catch 22s.

How long have you been going at this?

Do you have a paleo/low carb past?

Got fed up with acne after 20yrs, after trying all the creams, antibiotics, accutane, mega B5... everything under the sun.

Started low carb in 2008, when googled searches said in was the cure to everything, with about 9 months of zero carb. Damage was done, hair loss, sleep issues, and acne unchanged. I was in classic denial, these are just detox symptoms, i was high on stress hormones!

2009 found Matt Stone, got back on the starch, and some NDT, got temp and pulse up, no help to acne or hair loss and now sleeping was really bad. Found Danny Roddy when he realized Matt was on to something (July 2010), been following Danny since then, but never jumped on the sugar path.

http://www.dannyroddy.com/2010/7/14/i-u ... wrong.html

I finally jumped to RP, in the last couple months, after reading Haidut and hearing his podcasts with Danny. Displaced all starch with sucrose. I have seen the most improvement in the last 2 months with sucrose, caffeine and I think pregnenolone. But being impatient I have pushed some supplements to hard, mainly caffeine, and it sends me backwards.

I have a good grasp of all the RP content, its putting it to good practice and experimentation. One step forward, two back it seems now.

How did you get here?

Paleo since 2009 - I immediately felt fatigue on it but I was too stubborn. Sleep started getting disrupted somewhat. I used to be a rock solid sleeper. Went low carb in 2012 and sleep totally went to hell and started having typical hypothyroid symptoms. In 2014 I came across Matt Stone and tried eating a lot more. I only got slight improvements in body temp from it but gained about 25 pounds. After a few months I stopped that and just ate whatever was available until full then found RP. Tried the typical RP eating stuff and started having frequent urination again so I stopped. But I'm trying to do it on a low level now since about a month ago but trying to use supplements. So here I am.

post 116625

post 116572 Also I think the caffeine at night is blowing up in my face at the moment since I'm up at 3am writing this

Bad luck.
Can't remember if you've always been a coffee drinker, or if you had the same problems without coffee too? If you haven't tried reducing it, that's another possible avenue to try, though withdrawal can be rough if you're relying on it.

I've drank coffee off an on. It won't be horribly difficult to stop. Unfortunately even off coffee I don't see much improvement with sleep.

post 116670

Do we know of other things that help the liver in besides caffeine?

Haidut's definitive list of liver helpers:

The most helpful would be the following, ranked in order of importance:
Caffeine, K2, Aspirin, glycine, MB, Taurine, Vitamin E, Theanine, Thiamine, BCAA, Pyridoxine, and
Biotin

Obviously, these can be used in tandem. Vitamin B1 is probably a good adjunct to caffeine as it helps control the lactate response some people get from it.

Forum link to original discussion here

Also, I have a post on how I reduced my liver enzymes (not sure if that's exactly the same as fatty liver). I didn't really use that much caffeine. Discussion here if interested.

This is awesome, thanks so much. Already using K2 and a couple others. I'll keep with these.

post 116674 Hi Fire,
I just had another tangential thought, not from Peat but as far as I know compatible - not sure if I've mentioned any of them before.
If you think you are meeting nutritional needs and getting light etc, I wonder what you have tried by way of relaxation techniques?

I think you've tried bag breathing or other reduced breathing exercises to get CO2 levels up? Have you tried reduced breathign exercises in bed to help get to sleep? Or a sheet partially over your head?

Have you ever tried yoga? The classes I've been to alwys provide a valuable workout that helps align the body and ends with a few minutes of deep relaxation.

Some people find TRE valuable for releasing stresses and traumas held in the body. It involves some exercises that can be learned to trigger trembling, which seems to release some kinds of physical tension arising from past trauma. I imagine that your job may have helped set up some of that.

If you have emotional stress going on, then finding ways to address and release that can be helpful for relaxation and rest.

Done some bag breathing and meditation but probably didn't stay with it long enough. What's a good daily goal to aim for with bag breathing as far as how long? Also when would be the best time to do it to help with sleep?

I've done some yoga at home (youtube)

I sometimes do breathing exercises to get to sleeps. Sometimes it seems to help me get to sleep sooner and sometimes it doesn't.

I'll definitely look into TRE. Thanks so much

 

[tara]

post 116784 Done some bag breathing and meditation but probably didn't stay with it long enough. What's a good daily goal to aim for with bag breathing as far as how long? Also when would be the best time to do it to help with sleep?

Buteyko method suggests measuring Control Pause - how long you can comfortably hold after a normal outbreath before you havethe first impulse to inhale again - as a guide to CO2 levels. They say getting it above 25s can go with eliminating many smptoms, and over 40s brings even better health. (Mine is still way below 25s.) My source was normalbreathing; there are others.
Peat recommends the bag breathing just until it becomes uncomfortable several times a day.
I think having adequate alkaline minerals, enough fuel, and other good nutrition onboard helps make it possible.

post 116784 I've done some yoga at home (youtube)

I never manage to follow through with a good workout and a proper relaxation at home. I think the relaxation is an important part of it. If you can do it, good for you.

post 116784 I sometimes do breathing exercises to get to sleeps. Sometimes it seems to help me get to sleep sooner and sometimes it doesn't.

Good that it sometimes works.

post 116784 I'll definitely look into TRE

http://traumaprevention.com/

 

[firebreather]

post 116806

post 116784 Done some bag breathing and meditation but probably didn't stay with it long enough. What's a good daily goal to aim for with bag breathing as far as how long? Also when would be the best time to do it to help with sleep?

Buteyko method suggests measuring Control Pause - how long you can comfortably hold after a normal outbreath before you havethe first impulse to inhale again - as a guide to CO2 levels. They say getting it above 25s can go with eliminating many smptoms, and over 40s brings even better health. (Mine is still way below 25s.) My source was normalbreathing; there are others.
Peat recommends the bag breathing just until it becomes uncomfortable several times a day.
I think having adequate alkaline minerals, enough fuel, and other good nutrition onboard helps make it possible.

post 116784 I've done some yoga at home (youtube)

I never manage to follow through with a good workout and a proper relaxation at home. I think the relaxation is an important part of it. If you can do it, good for you.

post 116784 I sometimes do breathing exercises to get to sleeps. Sometimes it seems to help me get to sleep sooner and sometimes it doesn't.

Good that it sometimes works.

post 116784 I'll definitely look into TRE

http://traumaprevention.com/

Thank you so very much.

I just tried holding on and outbreath and got 15 seconds - looks like I've got some work to do

Guess I better get back to the bag breathing, think I was doing it for about 10 or 15 minutes. Didn't stop because of being uncomfortability though.

I don't know if it means anything but I was looking at some bloodwork from earlier in the year. My CO2 was 28mmol/L with a reference range of 22-32

 

[tara]

post 116815 Guess I better get back to the bag breathing, think I was doing it for about 10 or 15 minutes. Didn't stop because of being uncomfortability though.

Possibly 1-2 minutes several times a day would be better. I never did much bag-breathing, but I would do reduced-breathing exercises will waiting at lights etc, which is less socially and practically awkward. :).

post 116815 I don't know if it means anything but I was looking at some bloodwork from earlier in the year. My CO2 was 28mmol/L with a reference range of 22-32

There is a thread discussing how to interpret this, with some disagreement, possibly not all Peaty viewpoints. I haven't got my head around it enough to say what it means. viewtopic.php?t=6802

 

[firebreather]

post 116820

Possibly 1-2 minutes several times a day would be better. I never did much bag-breathing, but I would do reduced-breathing exercises will waiting at lights etc, which is less socially and practically awkward. :).

Reduced breathing - does that have the same effect because yes that definitely sounds like less of a social problem.

post 116815
There is a thread discussing how to interpret this, with some disagreement, possibly not all Peaty viewpoints. I haven't got my head around it enough to say what it means. viewtopic.php?t=6802

I will have a look at that thread now

 

[tara]

post 116822 Reduced breathing - does that have the same effect because yes that definitely sounds like less of a social problem.

Theoretically I think it should, but it takes a bit more concentration. I have really only succeeded in reducing the more severe patches of hyperventilation - haven't even got my CP up to 15s yet. But others have taken it much further. http://www.normalbreathing.com/learn.php
I wouldn't follow his fish oil recommendations, but I found this informative.

 

[firebreather]

thank you so much tara

post 116825

post 116822 Reduced breathing - does that have the same effect because yes that definitely sounds like less of a social problem.

Theoretically I think it should, but it takes a bit more concentration. I have really only succeeded in reducing the more severe patches of hyperventilation - haven't even got my CP up to 15s yet. But others have taken it much further. http://www.normalbreathing.com/learn.php
I wouldn't follow his fish oil recommendations, but I found this informative.

 

[charlie]

[ref]firebreather[/ref], sorry if I missed this. But any chance you had a high pufa meal that day? I say this because I have purposely ate high pufa meals when my thyroid dosing was overreached and interfering with my sleep. This would usually help me get a better nights sleep.

Also, the same symptoms you have, excess peeing, not sleeping well, are signs I look for indicating I am over medicated on thyroid.

 

[docall18]

post 116586 Sounds like time to back off the caffeine.

Caffeine seems to be two sided, can help lean out liver, but you need to have good thyroid support.

But when you don't have good thyroid, caffeine uses up glycogen stores, helps liberate FFA's and causing a stress response. low liver glycogen, means waking up at night.

Somehow have to balance NDT/t3/t4, caffeine, aspirin, theanine, taurine, cypro, thiamine... etc I dropped everything back to zero and will start with very small amounts.

My goal is to one day, not have to take anything, and just enjoy a nice cup of coffee.

When i take caffeine my thyroid requirements seem to go up. I am currently taking 75mg T3 and 2 grains of NDT. This seems like a huge dose, but at lower doses I get poor sleep, fatigue and puffy eyes.

I thought increasing caffeine would reduce thyroid requirements...

 

[ecstatichamster]

I have a few observations.

I'm a breathing coach and have gotten my breathing numbers up pretty high. I think this is why I'm relatively healthy and sleep well and have a strong libido in my mid fifties.

After a test showed elevated liver enzymes and I'm pretty sure I have non alcoholic fatty liver, I started massive coffee consumption a few weeks ago. I had some episodes after I had coffee: drink coffee, then experience srong sugar cravings, then eat a lot of sugar and then crash.

That's better now.

Also I've been taking about 30mg of K2 each day in a few doses.

In the past week it's all leveled out really nicely, no crashes or jittery feeling.

At the same time, I've finally seen some budging of my temps and HR (I'm supplementing NDT and T3).

This morning I had 2 double espressos, then a triple espresso, all in a few hours with no ill effects. Then later on I had a few double espressos.

I'll have a few more and I'll sleep well. Last night my last one was at 10PM and I fell asleep and slept great around midnight.

I'm thinking I'll have to up thyroid quite a bit but I have to do that slowly so I'm resisting going nuts.

I read something Ray wrote, that in winter his thyroid requirement QUADRUPLED. Well it's Winter here, and the days are short. I'm using lights when I can't get outside and that should help.

But back to coffee, there is massive tolerance and major changes on my end in a few short weeks. I worked through the adrenalin jittery rush and the crashes and now feel great with coffee.

Also my temps were falling at the end of the day even further. I think it was from the coffee. But that seems to be improving and the problem is going away.