Financial Independace/Early Retirement For Health And Well-being

[Nick]

I think that the macro-scale implications of Peat's ideas about the negative effects of stress, authoritarianism, learned helplessness, and lack of creativity are that a healthy society would have to be radically different from capitalism and allow for maximum autonomy and community. I think this would have much greater effects for health and well-being than could be achieved through diet alone. It is no coincidence that Peat references anarchists like Kropotkin and Illich.
To quote Ivan Illich (from Medical Nemesis): "An advanced industrial society is sick-making because it disables people from coping with their environment and, when they break down, substitutes a "clinical," or therapeutic, prosthesis for the broken relationships. People would rebel against such an environment if medicine did not explain their biological disorientation as a defect in their health, rather than as a defect in the way of life which is imposed on them or which they impose on themselves."

However, in the mean time we are stuck with capitalism and wage slavery. For those with the economic opportunities to pursue it (eg. access to middle class jobs), I think that financial independance/early retirement could be perhaps one of the most powerful tools to improve one's health and well being in the long run. Once one has reached financial independance and no longer has to work, endless creative opportunities, greatly increased autonomy, the ability to pursue one's passions, and the ability to completely avoid rote work and authoritarian people/situations could possibly solve many people's health problems without any other changes.
For an example of what I mean by financial independance, early retirement: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/

 

[barefooter]

I actually became interested in financial independence and early retirement maybe 6 years ago now, and only came across Peat maybe 3 or 4 years ago. I got interested in it through the writings of Ran Prieur, Jacob at Early Retirement Extreme, MMM, Illich, and others. When I came across Peat, I loved his ideas around health and nutrition, but his philosophical outlook really jived with the direction I was heading, so it was really amazing reading his stuff. I make good money as a software engineer, and was hoping to retire by 30, but I'm 31 now so I missed that goal, but I'm still trying to get out of the rat race soon.

I think it's something most people don't even realize is an option, so they don't bother saving extra money because they assume they will just work until 65 and retire like everyone else. I actually don't ever dream of retiring in the traditional sense, just having enough money to do whatever I want without having to make software I don't like for companies I hate . I quite like working hard on interesting/challenging goals, and can't see wanting to give that up until I die. In fact, retirement as it's generally practiced, seems like a great way to die earlier by loosing motivation, challenge, and zest for life.

Maybe I should buy some land somewhere sunny and start some kind of Peatopia for all of us renegades. We can all sit around eating ice cream while we listen to the latest herb doctor episode under heat lamps. Ah, that would be a glorious site. I all seriousness, it can get a bit lonely in Peatdom, but at least these forums are here.

 

[Nick]

I got interested in it through the writings of Ran Prieur, Jacob at Early Retirement Extreme, MMM, Illich, and other. When I came across Peat, I loved his ideas around health and nutrition, but his philosophical outlook really jived with the direction I was heading, so it was really amazing reading his stuff.

I came across the idea through Ivan Illich->Ran Prier->ERE->MMM. Funny what following up on references and links can lead you too.

Maybe I should buy some land somewhere sunny and start some kind of Peatopia for all of us renegades

Perhaps an autonomous permaculture community in the tropics with fruit groves and silvaculture dairy? If enough people interested in the Ray Peat perspective saved money along the lines of Early Retirement Extreme that wouldn't even be so unrealistic haha

it can get a bit lonely in Peatdom

The thing that bothers me is that many people interested in radical social ideas don't seem to be interested in physiology, health, or nutrition so it's hard to talk about.. people don't usually get it and to be honest I'm not sure I would either, I originally thought Peat was crazy

 

[barefooter]

post 114326 I came across the idea through Ivan Illich->Ran Prier->ERE->MMM. Funny what following up on references and links can lead you too.

Ha, good to see a Ran Prieur reader on here. I don't run into too many in the wild. I actually sent Ran some Ray Peat links at one point, because I assumed he would find his work fascinating, especially since they're both such big fans of Illich. I'm guessing he either never read any of it, or thought it was nonsense, since I never saw him post about it.

post 114326 Perhaps an autonomous permaculture community in the tropics with fruit groves and silvaculture dairy? If enough people interested in the Ray Peat perspective saved money along the lines of Early Retirement Extreme that wouldn't even be so unrealistic haha

Haha, it's tempting. Although I have my qualms about permaculture these days, or maybe just people with little gardening/farming experience who are very into the idealistic permaculture theory/model. I think there are a lot of great ideas and theories in permaculture, but a lot of them just don't have the real world results to back them up. They sound good on paper, but when it comes down to actually producing enough food to feed yourself, they fall down.

post 114326 The thing that bothers me is that many people interested in radical social ideas don't seem to be interested in physiology, health, or nutrition so it's hard to talk about.. people don't usually get it and to be honest I'm not sure I would either, I originally thought Peat was crazy

Yeah, this can be a bit frustrating. I have actually found there to be a good deal of people with radical social views who are interested in health, but it's generally vegetarianism or veganism, and I have to bite my tongue so much when talking with them. I think they're attracted to the diet for environmental/social reasons, and then they easily buy into all the propaganda about how it's actually healthy. I can't blame them though, veganism was the starting point for my radicalization, so I even bought into that dogma at one point. It took me learning about primitive societies, and some some way too radical anti-civilization stuff (ie: Derrick Jensen, Lierre Keith), and learning about sustainable farming to realize how mislead I had been. I still cringe when I remember how preachy I was about all that crap. It's why I rarely bring up diet with people these days unless prompted, I still feel that I used up all my preaching :).

I can see how people can think Peat is just a crazy guy rambling based on short exposure to his writing online. He has such an insanely broad amount of knowledge and weaves so many things together, that he ends up jumping all over the place to make his points. He'll be talking about the biology of serotonin, then LSD research, then authoritarianism, then some random studies, then linguistics, etc. This is actually what attracted me to his work, his ability to synthesis so many different fields and make all these connections that very few others are noticing or talking about. The man truly is a genius.

 

[Tarmander]

Financial independence can definitely be associated with a reduction in stress. I know for my job, which involves driving around, when I get some time off from the road I feel better. However there are those elderly people who explain their own longevity to staying active and working. So lets not write the masses off to an early death through slave labor.

 

[Platinum]

I'm quite passionate about this topic myself. I was always had a saver's personality (learned from my mom) and so it's no coincidence that my internet searches led me to discover ERE about 4 years ago (within the first year after graduating with my bachelor's degree at age 20), which then led to other early retirement sites like Mr. Money Mustache. Even when I only made $15 an hour I had a maxed out Roth IRA and these days I make six figures in a low COLA area and invest 75-85% of my take home income. I'm very thankful that my job is relatively easy for as a result of my skill set, natural talent with technology and above average intelligence. It helps keep the stress down in spite of the heavy travel schedule I have.

 

[honeybee]

For everyone after the baby boomer regeneration in the us, I think retirement is a past dream.
I am resigned to always having some sort of job part time to make ends meet.
The days of living comfortably on your company retirements are gone. Those industries in the us are gone.
Unless you invest wisely at an early age-which is. Rare- you will always have to work.
I think that the concept of retirement with no work is weird anyway. Why would anyone think they could retire from life and not have to work Or contribute? Weird.
I mean why think that because you are-that you are owed a living?

 

[answersfound]

post 114377 For everyone after the baby boomer regeneration in the us, I think retirement is a past dream.
I am resigned to always having some sort of job part time to make ends meet.
The days of living comfortably on your company retirements are gone. Those industries in the us are gone.
Unless you invest wisely at an early age-which is. Rare- you will always have to work.
I think that the concept of retirement with no work is weird anyway. Why would anyone think they could retire from life and not have to work Or contribute? Weird.
I mean why think that because you are-that you are owed a living?

i completely agree. I wouldn't ever let myself spend too much time in a career I felt I needed to escape from. And I'm never going to save large amounts of my paycheck for retirement. I'm going to live it the hell up while I'm young. Luckily I'm in a position that allows me to do that, but even if I wasn't, I'm not going to worry about retirement until I'm in my 50's. I don't get why people are so obsessed with saving. It's seems very anti-peatarian. Living in fear, lacking confidence to create things in your life, believing things just happen to you, hoping things will work out, saving for health emergencies, etc. peating is powerful. It makes you different from the rest of the pack. Look at Ray. I don't think he ever concerned himself with "saving for retirement" because he knows he can create value in the world because he is self-sufficient So many people die with too much money in their bank account. Family members of mine are so scared of the economy they just save and save and don't live. I think this is the hypothyroid state. Selfishness is a classic side effect. People cut coupons and don't want to lay out more money for higher quality food and then when they are faced with thousands of dollars in medical bills and they just don't connect the dots. Don't get me wrong. I don't believe in just blowing money on expensive clothing, electronics, and other crap, but I would never let myself compromise my health situation Because I need to save money. At heart, I am a minimalist. I've been homeless for a bit. my parents have weird spending habits and I see them caught up in the fear saving mentality.

 

[Stilgar]

Maybe I should buy some land somewhere sunny and start some kind of Peatopia for all of us renegades. We can all sit around eating ice cream while we listen to the latest herb doctor episode under heat lamps. Ah, that would be a glorious site. I all seriousness, it can get a bit lonely in Peatdom, but at least these forums are here.

Sign me up!

 

[artist]

I love mister money mustache... Unfortunately I financially screwed myself before learning any better but learning frugality and awareness of what I can control and what i do and don't need has helped me mature aot and been good for my mental health in itself. I had a financially comfortable upbringing and never learned how to manage money, always lived in fear of my own spending and waiting for the other shoe to drop so to speak. Im guessing debt and money problems take a huge toll on the health of many many people...at a minimum not being a slave to ones impulses is a beautiful and freeing thing, and if you're smart it can pay huge dividends like retiring before 30

 

[tobieagle]

post 114320 I think that the macro-scale implications of Peat's ideas about the negative effects of stress, authoritarianism, learned helplessness, and lack of creativity are that a healthy society would have to be radically different from capitalism and allow for maximum autonomy and community. I think this would have much greater effects for health and well-being than could be achieved through diet alone.

Couldn't have said it better.

There is more to discover and improve than the things you put through your digestive tract.

"People can radically change their way of thinking and living.
But through a change in institutions, the whole society can make the switch."

post 114324
Maybe I should buy some land somewhere sunny and start some kind of Peatopia for all of us renegades. We can all sit around eating ice cream while we listen to the latest herb doctor episode under heat lamps. Ah, that would be a glorious site. I all seriousness, it can get a bit lonely in Peatdom, but at least these forums are here.

I wouldn't hesitate to join!

 

[milk_lover]

How do you explain older people who retire die faster than their peers still in the workforce?

 

[Wilfrid]

And what about Thomas Paine's idea about the concept of a guaranteed minimum income?
I think that few countries, here in Europe, are ready to try it. Finland comes to mind...

 

[barefooter]

post 114404 And what about Thomas Paine's idea about the concept of a guaranteed minimum income?
I think that few countries, here in Europe, are ready to try it. Finland comes to mind...

I'm a big fan of the idea, and it has actually been gaining some political traction in some places as of the last few years. I think it can turn out to not be that much more expensive than the combination of other forms of wellfare, because it rolls a lot of systems into one. At lot of people poo poo it because they think it will cause people to not work and mooch off wellfare, but I don't see this as being the case. Most people are still going to want to have more money than they would get on a minimum income, so they'll seek out work. But, it gives some leverage to employees in the labor market, because they have this huge safety net, so it means employers have to pay better and treat employees better, or they will just quit and live on wellfare.

I think it's going to become increasing popular as automation, drones, etc. replace more and more jobs in the future. The problem is in the US, a lot of people still have this idea that they are just temporarily embarrassed millionaires, and so they vote as if they were already rich, when they are middle class or lower. It's definitely time for more of a collective thinking society in this country.

 

[Nick]

post 114377I think that the concept of retirement with no work is weird anyway. Why would anyone think they could retire from life and not have to work Or contribute? Weird.
I mean why think that because you are-that you are owed a living?

I absolutely agree. This is not the idea of financial independence/early retirement however. The idea is to be freed from the constraints of needing a constant income to survive, thus allowing the freedom to do many things that would otherwise be very risky and stressful. Most people who achieve financial independence do not stop working when they quit their jobs. Mr. Money Mustache for example spends much of his time doing carpentry, construction, writing, parenting, etc. not because he has to to make a living but because he wants to. When I eventually reach financial independence I would hope to spend my time growing and raising food for people, "working" in my recording studio, and involved with political causes.
What would you do with your time if you did not have to be chained to a job 40 hours a week, 50 months a year? I doubt you would sit around feeling entitled. You would probably want to do things you are passionate about and give back to the community in ways working folks don't have the time or resources to.

post 114402 How do you explain older people who retire die faster than their peers still in the workforce?

After 45 years of wage slavery and learned helplessness, the traditional retiree at 65 does not have much initiative, creativity, or healthy vitality left and cannot make use of their newfound freedom in the same way a 30-40 year old early retiree can.

 

[Nick]

post 114412

post 114404 And what about Thomas Paine's idea about the concept of a guaranteed minimum income?
I think that few countries, here in Europe, are ready to try it. Finland comes to mind...

I'm a big fan of the idea, and it has actually been gaining some political traction in some places as of the last few years. I think it can turn out to not be that much more expensive than the combination of other forms of wellfare, because it rolls a lot of systems into one. At lot of people poo poo it because they think it will cause people to not work and mooch off wellfare, but I don't see this as being the case. Most people are still going to want to have more money than they would get on a minimum income, so they'll seek out work. But, it gives some leverage to employees in the labor market, because they have this huge safety net, so it means employers have to pay better and treat employees better, or they will just quit and live on wellfare.

I think it's going to become increasing popular as automation, drones, etc. replace more and more jobs in the future. The problem is in the US, a lot of people still have this idea that they are just temporarily embarrassed millionaires, and so they vote as if they were already rich, when they are middle class or lower. It's definitely time for more of a collective thinking society in this country.

I certainly hope something like this idea gains traction otherwise automation will be continue to be used to benefit the rich rather than all of society, which is sort of the default way any advance works in capitalism. We have had the technology for a nearly work-free society for a long time now but instead consumerism has convinced everyone they need more things instead of more freedom. In many parts of the US, I think the Protestant work ethic is so strong that working is seen as a moral imperative even if one has everything one needs already.

 

[FredSonoma]

I feel like selling drugs is one of the last, easy-to-enter, decent-paying, autonomous "jobs" lol

 

[Daimyo]

post 114438
I feel like selling drugs is one of the last, easy-to-enter, decent-paying, autonomous "jobs" lol

There is money to be made in selling medicines. People always care about their health...

 

[Daimyo]

post 114404
And what about Thomas Paine's idea about the concept of a guaranteed minimum income?
I think that few countries, here in Europe, are ready to try it. Finland comes to mind...

I don't think it's going to work out long term, especially in countries with lot of Muslims.

 

[mt_dreams]

I don't get why people are so obsessed with saving. It's seems very anti-peatarian. Living in fear, lacking confidence to create things in your life, believing things just happen to you, hoping things will work out, saving for health emergencies, etc. peating is powerful. It makes you different from the rest of the pack. Look at Ray. I don't think he ever concerned himself with "saving for retirement" because he knows he can create value in the world because he is self-sufficient So many people die with too much money in their bank account. Family members of mine are so scared of the economy they just save and save and don't live.

It depends on the purpose of saving. For ex, I purposely saved all my money in my late teens, & 20's, while still enjoying myself as it's easy at that age to have fun without being extravagant or spending much on materials. I funneled that money into a townhouse complex that I now rent out, which brings in guaranteed income. So if for whatever reason I desire changing paths, fear of income necessity will not stress me one bit. I do agree that saving without purpose doesn't have much value. It's a slippery slope though, as dying with money could be a purpose (to pass down money to children), albeit an inferior one.

post 114402 How do you explain older people who retire die faster than their peers still in the workforce?

I know there have been studies on this, but in my experience, of all the people who died before 70, most of them were still working. It's all about what you do with your newfound time, as well as your thoughts on things such as purpose outside the framework of a job. Key issues revolve around purpose, and to a certain extent, of being needed ... two things that for many, vanish once they retire.